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Old 12-02-2012, 04:06 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Raine2011 View Post
The truth comes out? Really? Go back to post#12, I didnt hide the fact that I've raised litters of pups. and I DID breed dogs, we havent had a litter here for over 3 years.
No wonder you are so adamant about supporting a byb.......you are one.
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:07 PM   #52 (permalink)
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To be completely honest reputable breeders are somewhat to blame and are helping BYB imo as well. A doberman can have what anyways from 5-10 puppies roughly per litter? Reputable breeder charge anywhere from what $1500 to $4000 a puppy depending on location im assuming. Ive always been told the cost of the puppy is because of the cost the reputable breeder puts into the mother and father and puppies. So if you do the math at the very LOW end say a bitch has 10 puppies and the reputable breeder sells them at 1,000 each that 10,000. Health testing and croping shots and vet checks and all other things combined like dew claws and tail docking and shots dewormings and all of that. I mean showing is just for the confirmation of the dog that has nothing to do with the puppies other knowing they conform to the standards set aside by akc. So showing cost in themself dont even add up to that. Say the breeder charges 2,000 a puppy and had 10 puppies thats 20,000. So dont tell me reputable breeders arent making money off puppies. So in some sense by charging SO much for a puppy some people go to BYB to get the "better deal" it is JMO regardless of how many test you do on the parents it still does not gaurantee that said puppy will not have major health problems. Its just saying the parents are clear of said health problems. So it does insure the buyer a better chance not to have certain problems but doesnt eliminate it and if i didnt know better i would think a fully health tested parents with championed bloodlines there puppies would never have a health problem. Im not trying to cause a debate or anything but some people think paying that much for a puppy is CRAZY so they go elsewhere like back yard breeders to get a good price on a pet puppy. Regardless of what health problems pop up in the future. Its part of being a dog owner. Ive NEVER purchased a puppy or any dog for reputable breeders. And i know the next thing to come is if a person cannot afford or dont want to pay 1,000 up for a puppy from a reputable breeder they cant afford the care and thats kinda bs because if that was the case all rescue dogs come from mills or byb and in the case people who pay anywhere from 25 to 300 for a adoption fee wouldnt be able to afford there care. No matter what anyone does there going to be all sorts of breeders. Until there are some laws put in place and held in place to insure healthy breeding and not over populating the world with unwanted pets. I would much rather see anyone ADOPT then go buy puppies from anywhere. This is the first time myself buying ANY puppy for myself. I am pleased with my girl regardless of any future health problems. yeah she might just be a byb dog but it doesnt mean shes a crap dog. No dog even mutts are crap dogs.
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:14 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Not one reputable breeder I know sells puppies even show puppies for $4000. The fact is, with the testing and everything put into breeding responsibly, they are lucky if they break even. There is one particular breeder I LOVE on the mainland that sells her puppies for $1500. Tested. Great temperaments. Cropped. Docked. And everything else in between. She is my standard and one of the most incredible breeders this breed has ever had. And I would do ANYTHING for one of her puppies.

If you can't afford to buy a doberman from a reputable breeder, then rescue. Because you're not helping anyone except the greeders.


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Old 12-02-2012, 04:14 PM   #54 (permalink)
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yeah she might just be a byb dog but it doesnt mean shes a crap dog. No dog even mutts are crap dogs.
First, NOBODY called a dog a "crap" dog or anything of the sort. Here I go telling people what to say and what not to say, which goes against something I said earlier today, but... don't you dare put such vial words in the mouths/fingers of the posters here. People may be harsh and people may be blunt (myself included) but those words have NEVER been said/typed. I have been a member of the forums for a good while now and I've never seen anybody blame a puppy for where the puppy came from.


eta: Haha, that was a kindafugly thing for you to imply.



Now,
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Originally Posted by kindafugly View Post
To be completely honest reputable breeders are somewhat to blame and are helping BYB, imo, as well. A doberman can have what anyways from 5-10 puppies roughly per litter? Reputable breeder charge anywhere from what $1500 to $4000 a puppy depending on location, I'm assuming. I've always been told the cost of the puppy is because of the cost the reputable breeder puts into the mother and father and puppies. So if you do the math at the very LOW end say a bitch has 10 puppies and the reputable breeder sells them at 1,000 each that 10,000. Health testing and cropping shots and vet checks and all other things combined like dew claws and tail docking and shots dewormings and all of that. I mean showing is just for the confirmation of the dog that has nothing to do with the puppies other knowing they conform to the standards set aside by AKC. So showing cost in itself doesn't even add up to that. Say the breeder charges 2,000 a puppy and had 10 puppies that's 20,000. So don't tell me reputable breeders aren't making money off puppies.
Cost of having a litter of puppies....
Costs of Breeding (Wirehaired Pointer Breeder)
Dobermann Litter Costs
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:15 PM   #55 (permalink)
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The truth comes out? Really? Go back to post#12, I didnt hide the fact that I've raised litters of pups. and I DID breed dogs, we havent had a litter here for over 3 years.
I thought you were "Done reading this thread"???
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:16 PM   #56 (permalink)
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To be completely honest reputable breeders are somewhat to blame and are helping BYB imo as well. A doberman can have what anyways from 5-10 puppies roughly per litter? Reputable breeder charge anywhere from what $1500 to $4000 a puppy depending on location im assuming. Ive always been told the cost of the puppy is because of the cost the reputable breeder puts into the mother and father and puppies. So if you do the math at the very LOW end say a bitch has 10 puppies and the reputable breeder sells them at 1,000 each that 10,000. Health testing and croping shots and vet checks and all other things combined like dew claws and tail docking and shots dewormings and all of that. I mean showing is just for the confirmation of the dog that has nothing to do with the puppies other knowing they conform to the standards set aside by akc. So showing cost in themself dont even add up to that. Say the breeder charges 2,000 a puppy and had 10 puppies thats 20,000. So dont tell me reputable breeders arent making money off puppies. So in some sense by charging SO much for a puppy some people go to BYB to get the "better deal" it is JMO regardless of how many test you do on the parents it still does not gaurantee that said puppy will not have major health problems. Its just saying the parents are clear of said health problems. So it does insure the buyer a better chance not to have certain problems but doesnt eliminate it and if i didnt know better i would think a fully health tested parents with championed bloodlines there puppies would never have a health problem. Im not trying to cause a debate or anything but some people think paying that much for a puppy is CRAZY so they go elsewhere like back yard breeders to get a good price on a pet puppy. Regardless of what health problems pop up in the future. Its part of being a dog owner. Ive NEVER purchased a puppy or any dog for reputable breeders. And i know the next thing to come is if a person cannot afford or dont want to pay 1,000 up for a puppy from a reputable breeder they cant afford the care and thats kinda bs because if that was the case all rescue dogs come from mills or byb and in the case people who pay anywhere from 25 to 300 for a adoption fee wouldnt be able to afford there care. No matter what anyone does there going to be all sorts of breeders. Until there are some laws put in place and held in place to insure healthy breeding and not over populating the world with unwanted pets. I would much rather see anyone ADOPT then go buy puppies from anywhere. This is the first time myself buying ANY puppy for myself. I am pleased with my girl regardless of any future health problems. yeah she might just be a byb dog but it doesnt mean shes a crap dog. No dog even mutts are crap dogs.
I would LOVE to smack you across the face right now...
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:18 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Im not saying people have came right out and said crap dogs but they sure do make you feel your dog is inferior because of where they came from. Ive read multiple threads where people have said everyone makes them feel there dog is not as good as ones from reputable breeders. Every dog is just as good as the next
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:20 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I thought you were "Done reading this thread"???
I was, got bored...
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:22 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Please do smack me then. Cause i thought everyone was entitled to voice there opinions and views?
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:22 PM   #60 (permalink)
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I wonder if this is a TROLL worthy topic?
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:22 PM   #61 (permalink)
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S/n: I don't want "the better deal"

I want a puppy that I know has a better chance at having a long and healthy life because I've seen it in its lineage. I want to support the people who are breeding to better the breed. I want to ensure that as a doberman lover, I do what's best for a breed that is being DESTROYED by warlocks and albinos.

I refuse to be "that" person.


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Old 12-02-2012, 04:22 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kindafugly View Post
To be completely honest reputable breeders are somewhat to blame and are helping BYB imo as well. A doberman can have what anyways from 5-10 puppies roughly per litter? Reputable breeder charge anywhere from what $1500 to $4000 a puppy depending on location im assuming.
Not one reputable breeder I know sells puppies even show puppies for $4000.
I, also, have never seen a reputable breeder charge $4000. I'm sure there are some reputable breeders that charge more than $2500 for their "show" puppies but I have yet to see them. Edit: The only breeders who I've seen charging upwards of $4000 (and more!) are scum and should have never been in the dog would in the first place, in my opinion.

The bolded part of Fugly's statement really sums up his whole post, in my opinion.
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:23 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Please do smack me then. Cause i thought everyone was entitled to voice there opinions and views?
yes, and MY OPINION...I want to smack you.
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:25 PM   #64 (permalink)
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I wonder if this is a TROLL worthy topic?
ERMERGERD! Like this?!




Edit: OH, OH!!! This one is also relevant!!
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:26 PM   #65 (permalink)
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ermergerd! Like this?!
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:31 PM   #66 (permalink)
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i was reading a kimbertal thread and people saying they paid 3700 for there dogs. So regardless. My figure was on 1,000-2,000 a puppy. There no way a single litter cost 10k-20k even doing all health testing and croping docking vet checks and everything else when it comes to breeding.

No matter how many people say dont buy from these breeder NO one will ever be able to stop breeders. Not all byb are bad breeders. I have never seen 1 yet on this forum mention puppy mills which are WAY worse then back yard breeding.
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:33 PM   #67 (permalink)
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i was reading a kimbertal thread...
Ooooooh...

Quote:
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...and people saying they paid 3700 for there dogs.
Oh, so thats why your numbers are so skewed - you must consider Kimbertal to be reputable.
Nope.
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:35 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kindafugly View Post
To be completely honest reputable breeders are somewhat to blame and are helping BYB imo as well. A doberman can have what anyways from 5-10 puppies roughly per litter? Reputable breeder charge anywhere from what $1500 to $4000 a puppy depending on location im assuming. Ive always been told the cost of the puppy is because of the cost the reputable breeder puts into the mother and father and puppies. So if you do the math at the very LOW end say a bitch has 10 puppies and the reputable breeder sells them at 1,000 each that 10,000. Health testing and croping shots and vet checks and all other things combined like dew claws and tail docking and shots dewormings and all of that. I mean showing is just for the confirmation of the dog that has nothing to do with the puppies other knowing they conform to the standards set aside by akc. So showing cost in themself dont even add up to that. Say the breeder charges 2,000 a puppy and had 10 puppies thats 20,000. So dont tell me reputable breeders arent making money off puppies. So in some sense by charging SO much for a puppy some people go to BYB to get the "better deal" it is JMO regardless of how many test you do on the parents it still does not gaurantee that said puppy will not have major health problems. Its just saying the parents are clear of said health problems. So it does insure the buyer a better chance not to have certain problems but doesnt eliminate it and if i didnt know better i would think a fully health tested parents with championed bloodlines there puppies would never have a health problem. Im not trying to cause a debate or anything but some people think paying that much for a puppy is CRAZY so they go elsewhere like back yard breeders to get a good price on a pet puppy. Regardless of what health problems pop up in the future. Its part of being a dog owner. Ive NEVER purchased a puppy or any dog for reputable breeders. And i know the next thing to come is if a person cannot afford or dont want to pay 1,000 up for a puppy from a reputable breeder they cant afford the care and thats kinda bs because if that was the case all rescue dogs come from mills or byb and in the case people who pay anywhere from 25 to 300 for a adoption fee wouldnt be able to afford there care. No matter what anyone does there going to be all sorts of breeders. Until there are some laws put in place and held in place to insure healthy breeding and not over populating the world with unwanted pets. I would much rather see anyone ADOPT then go buy puppies from anywhere. This is the first time myself buying ANY puppy for myself. I am pleased with my girl regardless of any future health problems. yeah she might just be a byb dog but it doesnt mean shes a crap dog. No dog even mutts are crap dogs.
I'm sorry, but your information is just inaccurate. One more link for you on the cost of a litter: Cost of a Litter - Glengate Reg'd Doberman Pinschers

Quote:
Originally Posted by kindafugly View Post
Im not saying people have came right out and said crap dogs but they sure do make you feel your dog is inferior because of where they came from. Ive read multiple threads where people have said everyone makes them feel there dog is not as good as ones from reputable breeders. Every dog is just as good as the next
So much depends upon the poster, their willingness to be open and learn and admit their mistakes, and whether they view everything as an insult. I have never once been told or had it implied in any way that my Shanoa (from a BYB) was not as good as any other dog here. To the contrary, I received a warm welcome, education on what makes a good breeder (which led me, eventually, to my breeder and my wonderful baby Richter), and constant help when I needed it. DT has almost certainly LITERALLY saved Shanoa's life.
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Old 12-02-2012, 04:41 PM   #69 (permalink)
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I've seen kimbertal puppies advertise for $3000 and they are a byb AND puppymill. They alone, sell their dogs for far more than any reputable breeder I know of.


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Old 12-02-2012, 04:57 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I've got a friend that bought two labradors from a "reputable" breeder & AKC Breeder of Merit. Parents were health tested, and the breeder is active in AKC and UKC showing. One of my friend's labs has a congenital heart defect (that parents were supposedly screened for), and the other has elbow displasia (also that parents were supposedly screened for). The bought them with breeding rights and started to show them. They have both gotten AKC and UKC titles, however she cannot breed them, and has spent well over $30K in their health care. The dogs are 3 and 4 years old, so buying from a "reputable" breeder does not always mean you are getting a dog that is any healthier, or any less expensive for its long term care.

This breeder tried to tell my friend not to report the health issues that were found, because it would make her lines look bad. A litter mate to the one that has the heart issues... is still being shown and is now being used to sire other litters with no mention of the family health issue that has been found.

Reputable breeder... who really makes this determination?
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:01 PM   #71 (permalink)
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i read that link and the cost they include are insane. going right down to 1.30 for trash haha. Those are day by day normal expenses. you really cant expect people to pay you more money for puppies cause you had to put trash out. Sorry i found that kinda entertaining.

Now im open to corrections if im wrong...

It is just my opinion the only cost that should be calculated into the breeding is health testing and the money you put into whelping the litter and the cost involved with the puppies. you cant count what you paid for the dam or sire. you can count STUD fee's if you choose to pay a stud fee. Everything else is a cost for owning your dogs. It shouldnt be counted in to the price calculated for the puppies. When owning animals the health care expenses are normal expenses. Only expenses IMO should be calculated are the fee encountered for the puppies and insureing the puppies are healthy and any other puppy related expense. I would be dumb to say the puppies costed me 200.00 in feed because you HAVE to feed your puppies and dogs.
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:06 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raine2011 View Post
I've got a friend that bought two labradors from a "reputable" breeder & AKC Breeder of Merit. Parents were health tested, and the breeder is active in AKC and UKC showing. One of my friend's labs has a congenital heart defect (that parents were supposedly screened for), and the other has elbow displasia (also that parents were supposedly screened for). The bought them with breeding rights and started to show them. They have both gotten AKC and UKC titles, however she cannot breed them, and has spent well over $30K in their health care. The dogs are 3 and 4 years old, so buying from a "reputable" breeder does not always mean you are getting a dog that is any healthier, or any less expensive for its long term care.

This breeder tried to tell my friend not to report the health issues that were found, because it would make her lines look bad. A litter mate to the one that has the heart issues... is still being shown and is now being used to sire other litters with no mention of the family health issue that has been found.

Reputable breeder... who really makes this determination?
I wouldn't count someone who is dishonest and lies about her product to make herself look good as a reputable person in general, let alone breeder.

I've had BYB dogs, bought by my parents when I was a kid. I currently run around after 4 BYB rescues now. I'm about to rescue a male that was bred by what looks to be either a BYB or a mill.

I'm Skoll's 4th home. He's bounced from a cab of a truck to a tiny apartment to a horse farm where he was terrorized and at the very least borderline abused to his current foster home at a vet clinic, all in about 10 month's time. He's currently 2.5 and reactive and fearful, possibly fear aggressive. Does he have any health problems? Don't know yet, guess I'll find out. But the fact that his home was screen so poorly that he's bounced around so much and landed in the bad home from no fault of his own speaks to how well the breeder screened his future "forever" home.

And don't even get me started about the health and temperament problems of the rest of the crew.
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:07 PM   #73 (permalink)
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I guess the way i see it. From taking on these puppies and giving the male to the friend of mine. It would be like well i paid $100 for him and got $300 into vet expenses and etc.. Then $50 into gas then $30 to go out to eat. Then wear and tear on my tires $50. Food $30 Puppy forumula and supplies $30 A day off work to go get him $150 and because of this i want $800 to break even lol
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:08 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:10 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazi View Post
I wouldn't count someone who is dishonest and lies about her product to make herself look good as a reputable person in general, let alone breeder.

I've had BYB dogs, bought by my parents when I was a kid. I currently run around after 4 BYB rescues now. I'm about to rescue a male that was bred by what looks to be either a BYB or a mill.

I'm Skoll's 4th home. He's bounced from a cab of a truck to a tiny apartment to a horse farm where he was terrorized and at the very least borderline abused to his current foster home at a vet clinic, all in about 10 month's time. He's currently 2.5 and reactive and fearful, possibly fear aggressive. Does he have any health problems? Don't know yet, guess I'll find out. But the fact that his home was screen so poorly that he's bounced around so much and landed in the bad home from no fault of his own speaks to how well the breeder screened his future "forever" home.

And don't even get me started about the health and temperament problems of the rest of the crew.
Thats very unfortunate, so sorry to hear your boy has had such a rough start. Hopefully he can find his place in your home and learn to trust and love again.
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