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Old 11-25-2012, 03:46 AM   #1 (permalink)
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'Halla's hind leg

For those of you who have seen her recent videos, she's doing really well, in general.

However, her right hind leg has a 'quirk' when she's walking.

It seems to be ever so slightly bowed out and when she walks, it seems to sort of do a flip-twist thing like you'd see in a Chow with bad stifles.

Sometimes she'll raise it high up in an exaggerated fashion when walking.

I've searched the forum and found that she should not be exercising quite so much, should be on carpet and not slippery tile and not be drinking the milk she loves so much.

I was worried that her food might be the culprit but TOTW High Prairie Formula seems to have a very good calcium/phosphorus ratio.

The milk and goat's milk added to her food may be screwing that up so, as much as she loves that stuff, it's being eliminated just in case.

She has a checkup on Monday and since we already know she's had a head injury and fractured right elbow, should I ask them to x-ray her to see what's going on in there?

It only shows up at a walk.
She trots and runs just fine.

Hubby "can't see" the gait oddity but it sticks out like a blazing neon sign, to me.

[my teenage 4-H horse and pony/dog conformation classes stuck with me forever...I see everything that's even half of a frog hair "off"]

I know I'm being a worry-wort...it's what I do.

Having vowed to move mountains to make her completely well again, this is yet another hill I need to address.

I do not think it's a conformational fault because, in spite of being the worst breeders imaginable, the bitch and the sire are four-square, firm and sound and have the most correct leg sets imaginable.

Her dad is my Odin's dad and Odin is the most correct legged dog I've ever owned and he moves and single tracks like a dream.

Her hind leg was not doing this until recently..I'm thinking I noticed it about a week and half ago.

She's growing shockingly fast, as well.

Whereas Odin grew consistently and proportionately, remaining always square, she is growing like a colt...becoming 'all legs' instead of staying proportionate.

Granted, her mom is a much more 'elegant' and leggy dog than Odin's mom was but the wonky hind leg has me concerned, especially in light of her history of 'broken bits' issues.

It doesn't seem like Pano because it's always her right side limbs.

[she has been limping sporadically on her front leg, as well]

I plan to cut back on her free-roaming romps [daddy's doing] and will be looking for some kind of cheap carpeting to cover as much of the floor as possible.
[it's a fairly big bedroom floor...25' x 15']

I've also read the Great Dane Lady's articles on knuckling over and it's not that, I don't think.

Her front legs seem fine...so far.

I also checked the forum links to Osteochondrosis.

I'm worried it's that because it sure seems to 'fit'.

[sorry to be a chronic PITA to y'all but you know I'm gonna drive myself insane[r] getting her as close to 100% as possible]

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Old 11-25-2012, 11:30 AM   #2 (permalink)
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let us know how the Vet visit goes on Monday.

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Old 11-26-2012, 11:32 PM   #3 (permalink)
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let us know how the Vet visit goes on Monday.

Hugz to the furkids!
The exam appointment we thought was made apparently wasn't.

They took a blood sample for her CBC and that was it.

Nobody looked at her at all.
Almost $300 for that.

I'm going back to our old vet.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:00 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I know that when Elka grew, it wasn't proportional at all. It was legs one week, head another, neck, back, etc. She did have a brief knuckling issue, that I addressed pretty much as soon as it started.

As you say, it might be the milk, and might disappear on its own in the next week as soon as it reappears.

Sorry about the vet
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:46 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I know that when Elka grew, it wasn't proportional at all. It was legs one week, head another, neck, back, etc. She did have a brief knuckling issue, that I addressed pretty much as soon as it started.

As you say, it might be the milk, and might disappear on its own in the next week as soon as it reappears.

Sorry about the vet
She's on strict dog food only now diet, no added 'extra' stuff.

I also am adding some Buckeye Pro Superbits so she has some carbs.

TOTW is no grain and I use for it my other kids to keep them lean and hard.

I think she's skinny.

She's up to 12.3 lbs but looks lanky to me.

Odin was such a chunky little guy.

Either she's not getting enough 'fattening up' or she's going to be a lanky dog.

I sure her CBC comes back more normal.

I about had a stroke when they gave us the bill.

1 CBC and a worm test, that much?

No wonder their clinic is so fancy.



You should watch Ibizan Hounds grow up.

Nothing matches anything else until they're at least 6 months old.

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Old 11-28-2012, 10:27 PM   #6 (permalink)
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let us know how the Vet visit goes on Monday.

Hugz to the furkids!
CBC results are better but not perfect.

Elevated levels of phosphorus and calcium.
A 'little too much' potassium.
Still a bit anemic.
Low creatanine.
Need to have them FAX me a copy tomorrow so I can compare it to her previous CBC, myself.

Said she needs a different puppy food made for large breeds so I got her Wellness Large Breed Puppy food because the stuff the vet recommended is junk, IMO.
[I refuse to feed my dogs *any* corn]

Finally, no internal parasites at all.

That's all I know until I get hold of the CBC results, myself.

Much as I thought the Wellness was funny looking, she dug right in.

She's too skinny for me.
All legs and no body.
Totally different from Odin when he was pup.
He was solid and chunky.

She eats like a pig though so we're trying to not let her run amok as much as she has been.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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When she is in a sit, does that leg kinda "pop out" to the side?
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:07 PM   #8 (permalink)
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When she is in a sit, does that leg kinda "pop out" to the side?
Not really.
She sits very square and compact like Dobes usually sit.

The leg bows outward slight around the knee and she only shows signs of abnormality at the walk.

Her leg tends to sort of roll/pop when she walks on it and she's putting weight on the outside of her rear foot.

Sometimes she'll take a weird, forward pointing 'high step' on that leg as if she's stretching it or something.

We're going to have it x-rayed if the new large breed puppy food doesn't help.

She does have elevated calcium/phosporus levels so her bone formation may be affected.

Her growth spurt is bizarre.

She's growing up but not 'out'.

She looks like a bony, leggy foal and is growing too fast, IMO.

She was limping on her right front leg too but that seems to have stopped.

Pano, maybe?
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:24 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Cool. Could just be growing pains (pano) but I'm glad you are on top if it! Hugs to her.

If you notice that one leg starts to pops out in a sit, I'd have a hip x ray done. Speaking from expience, trust me, it's 50 bucks well spent compared to the alternative.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:25 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Hope this gets figured out.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:33 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Keep in mind that there may be some conformation flaws as well. Not all dogs are going to perfectly symetrical. Lets face it..why have conformation titles if all of them are perfect? The thing is if it is not causing problems and it is just something u see at times it may only be that...not a health related concern.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:11 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Keep in mind that there may be some conformation flaws as well. Not all dogs are going to perfectly symetrical. Lets face it..why have conformation titles if all of them are perfect? The thing is if it is not causing problems and it is just something u see at times it may only be that...not a health related concern.
I agree, and im not trying to be a negative nelly... BUT there are conformation flaws and there are structural deformities. My puppy had a congenital defect of the hip requiring an FHO (Femoral Head Ostectomy) after a dislocation from simply running in the yard at the age of 8months.

Conformation aside, the "squareness" of a puppy shouldn't cause lameness.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:29 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I agree, and im not trying to be a negative nelly... BUT there are conformation flaws and there are structural deformities. My puppy had a congenital defect of the hip requiring an FHO (Femoral Head Ostectomy) after a dislocation from simply running in the yard at the age of 8months.

Conformation aside, the "squareness" of a puppy shouldn't cause lameness.
True but this is why I said if it is NOT causing problems. I can't tell u how many dogs I have watched that move with a hitch here and something there. Sometimes it is a problem that will require surgery and sometimes that is what they move like for their entire life. Bottom line..this pup is from dubious breeding..with worse than dubious puppy start. I think it is likely there will be structural/conformation flaws that may or may not cause problems. Other than giving this pup good nutrition and normal good exercise on good surfaces there is little that is going to change what is genetically or already developmentally wrong with it. I think the OP is doing the best for the pup she can and so if there is nothing about the odd movement causing problems I say give it a chance to grow up.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:44 PM   #14 (permalink)
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True but this is why I said if it is NOT causing problems. I can't tell u how many dogs I have watched that move with a hitch here and something there. Sometimes it is a problem that will require surgery and sometimes that is what they move like for their entire life. Bottom line..this pup is from dubious breeding..with worse than dubious puppy start. I think it is likely there will be structural/conformation flaws that may or may not cause problems. Other than giving this pup good nutrition and normal good exercise on good surfaces there is little that is going to change what is genetically or already developmentally wrong with it. I think the OP is doing the best for the pup she can and so if there is nothing about the odd movement causing problems I say give it a chance to grow up.
I agree, but IF it gets odd (best real example I have is the "pop out" sit) maybe an x ray is in order... Again, I'm a bit overly cautious, and I won the puppy power(less) ball so take it for what it's worth. I actually said I think its growing pains.

OP, trust your gut... If something is really wrong, you will know. Not "am I paranoid, puppy parent" crap... But the real deal "this isn't right". Otherwise, enjoy lanky cute dober pup stage, it passes so quick
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:48 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Yes I agree that it may need attention. I actually read the post again and read the part about popping out when she walks and the straight leg little thing...sounds a bit like a loose knee/cruciate issue.
It unfortunately would not be a surprise for a pup with this history to have some issues like this. Sometimes things do work out with growth but it doesn't hurt to have a baseline picture to know how it is going. It could use an xray to see.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:04 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I agree, and im not trying to be a negative nelly... BUT there are conformation flaws and there are structural deformities. My puppy had a congenital defect of the hip requiring an FHO (Femoral Head Ostectomy) after a dislocation from simply running in the yard at the age of 8months.

Conformation aside, the "squareness" of a puppy shouldn't cause lameness.
It's not a conformation flaw.

Her mom, dad and siblings were foursquare and firm and so was she until the growth spurt started.

The weird leg thing is new and I noticed it first about 2 weeks ago.

When she stands still, she wonderfully square.

This is something internal that is affecting her movement.

Conformation flaws show up notoriously at the trot which why show dogs trot but her trot is great.

It only shows up at the walk.

I'm leaning toward a knee/stifle issue or possibly tendon problem.

During the early phase of her recovery when her vision was not very good, she'd stumble into and off things a lot.

She's on restricted activity right now because when she gets let out of her puppy pen, she is running hellbent for leather around the room.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:19 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Yes I agree that it may need attention. I actually read the post again and read the part about popping out when she walks and the straight leg little thing...sounds a bit like a loose knee/cruciate issue.
It unfortunately would not be a surprise for a pup with this history to have some issues like this. Sometimes things do work out with growth but it doesn't hurt to have a baseline picture to know how it is going. It could use an xray to see.
This is what I'm thinking, too.

I've known Ibizans with cruciate injuries and it's kind of what it reminds me of but nowhere near as debilitating.

She can bear full weight upon it and is not 'limping', per se.

I'm trying to figure out if it can be a sprain, a strain or the result of a hyper-extension incident...something along the line of something being 'stretched' during one of her clumsy romps.

I've just never seen a pup this young in the wonky growing stage with it so it makes it's hard to figure out.

It's too "sudden", erratic and sporadic to be something conformational.

Her breeding, although it be backyard, it not "dubious".

She has some really great lines behind her and adult dogs from the same but previous breeding are really incredible specimens.

Her 3 YO full sister is a dog who, if not for her medium crop, I wouldn't be ashamed to enter a ring with.

As I mentioned, long before I knew her pedigree, those dogs kept making me think "Man, that dog looks familiar!", and they look exactly like the dogs Kay Hill was breeding in the 70's.

They offered to sell me that bitch but #1, I'm not happy about putting any money in their pocket, #2, I'm not sure how well an adult female would integrate with my own pack.

The only upside to it would be getting that beautiful bitch out of that cold kennel and into a warm house.

Last edited by Salamander; 11-29-2012 at 10:30 PM..
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:53 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Sounds like Luxating Patellas. Its a disorder of the knees. Can affect 1 or both. May or may not require surgery it depends on the degree knees. It will make them walk weird on the affected knees. Also cause pain to some degree depending on severity. Also the stretching out you described is a way they try and pop there knee back into place. I would definitely check into that.

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Old 11-30-2012, 01:27 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kindafugly View Post
Sounds like Luxating Patellas. Its a disorder of the knees. Can affect 1 or both. May or may not require surgery it depends on the degree knees. It will make them walk weird on the affected knees. Also cause pain to some degree depending on severity. Also the stretching out you described is a way they try and pop there knee back into place. I would definitely check into that.
After trying for an hour to get a good video of it happening, this is the best I could get.

Halla leg - YouTube

It starts a second or so after the video begins but you can see the twisting of her leg when she walks.

Hope that's clear enough for somebody to make sense of it.

It happens mostly after she's run around and is getting tired.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:37 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Two more that might be helpful

halla leg 2 - YouTube

halla leg 3 - YouTube
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:56 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I have no words of wisdom to offer about her leg although I do see what you mean in the videos. It does not seem to affect her ability to play and move.

But omg she is a cutie! She looks great! You have done a wonderful job caring for her. Thanks for all you have done and are doing!
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:27 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Coco Loco View Post
I have no words of wisdom to offer about her leg although I do see what you mean in the videos. It does not seem to affect her ability to play and move.

But omg she is a cutie! She looks great! You have done a wonderful job caring for her. Thanks for all you have done and are doing!
Gosh...I can't take credit for her recovery.

All the financial help and prayers she's received did it...

And she is a little keg of doggie dynamite, that's for sure.

Odin was such a good boy as a pup, always sensible and serious.

She's a relentless little maniac!

Since she's in her 'demon possessed stapler' biting phase, I've been calling her "Weasel" from the Zappa album "Weasels Ripped My Flesh"....

[she doesn't answer to Halla...some dogs pick their own names. Ive had few who simply refused to acknowledge the name I wanted them to have]


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Old 11-30-2012, 10:22 AM   #23 (permalink)
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She's a nut - love it!! She does do something odd, hard to guess though. She doesn't look too skinny to me personally either. I'm not a fan of overly chunky puppies though.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:40 AM   #24 (permalink)
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If that were my puppy I would take her to an orthopedist. She looks like she is moving the leg outward to avoid bending the stifle joint.
Even though it doesn't hurt her now my biggest concern is that she could get early arthritis in that joint.
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:35 AM   #25 (permalink)
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I'd say the weirdness to the gait is a compensation for something else going on.

I'd second an orthopedist for xrays, but I'd also consider a certified animal chiropractor. In my pup, sometimes the only sign I have that she's due for a chiro visit is a wonky gait.
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