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Old 11-17-2012, 07:21 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Help with buying the best protection sleeve.

Hey everybody, it has been a while since I posted, but I have been working the last several month with bella on developing the drive and interest for Schutzhund sport. It's come the time where I would like to start introducing her to the sleeve aspect of the sport before I start working her with my local club. They wont work with her until she is 14 months old. I want to get her famaliar with the sleeve and build confidence schutzhund requires, we work out and excercise every day doing some sort of bite work with large rope or stick

so my question is what is the best sleeve to start working with my doberman. Will a puppy sleeve work?

I was thinking something like this.

Puppy Bite Suit Sleeve

I know she will out grow the sleeve in a few months, but I figure something to start her vs going out and spending 2-300 dollars on one and she lacking the interest even though she exhibits great prey and defense drive!!

Any help and suggestion on the right sleeve would be greatly appreciated. I just want to use it to introduce the "game' of schutzhund to her.

here are some recent pictures of Bella this month.






Last edited by DiamondDobermans; 11-17-2012 at 07:26 PM..
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:00 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Why bother? Your liable to do more harm than good without a qualified helper. Don't be in such a hurry. Aren't you busy enough working on tracking, obedience, and socialization?

Maybe some of the other Calif people can help you find another club.

Just wanted to add that the pic of her in the mud puddle is priceless.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:11 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Why bother? Your liable to do more harm than good without a qualified helper. Don't be in such a hurry. Aren't you busy enough working on tracking, obedience, and socialization?

Maybe some of the other Calif people can help you find another club.

Just wanted to add that the pic of her in the mud puddle is priceless.
Well, they plan on breeding prior to titling, so why not continue with the cart-before-horse theme?
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:28 PM   #4 (permalink)
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In Schutzhund it is not a good plan to do helper work on your own dog. In addition if you want to work the dog in the wrong drive, you can double up on this aspect and introduce the Schutzhund sport as a "game" as well. While many clubs do sort of take this approach to Schutzhund by having all of the work done in prey, you can certainly seal the deal by taking the approach you plan on.
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Old 11-22-2012, 03:42 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Well, if you want to lose your arm, go ahead and use a puppy sleeve on what is pretty much physically an adult dog. Personally, I would go with a bite pillow or a good tug over that puppy sleeve. If you haven't used a tug or bite pillow, you have no business jumping to any sort of sleeve. At this point you really should be focusing on obedience and tracking. If the club won't work dogs on a sleeve until 14 months, there is generally a reason... I know some people who do their own helper work, but they are people who have a LOT of experience, which is something you don't seem to have and it is NEVER their preferred method.

So in summary, get a good jute tug. Use it for obedience and engagement.
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Old 11-23-2012, 03:30 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Well, if you want to lose your arm, go ahead and use a puppy sleeve on what is pretty much physically an adult dog. Personally, I would go with a bite pillow or a good tug over that puppy sleeve. If you haven't used a tug or bite pillow, you have no business jumping to any sort of sleeve. At this point you really should be focusing on obedience and tracking. If the club won't work dogs on a sleeve until 14 months, there is generally a reason... I know some people who do their own helper work, but they are people who have a LOT of experience, which is something you don't seem to have and it is NEVER their preferred method.

So in summary, get a good jute tug. Use it for obedience and engagement.
I don't know of any good experienced Schutzhund training helpers who will work their own dog in protection. Our TD does not even talk to the helper while they are working his dog, as it has a negative effect on the dog's working ability. He will use a clicker to communicate to the helper to give the bite.

We do not start dogs in protection on a helper either until they are 12 to 14 months old. Up to that point we do a lot of prey work with a tug. The reason is that we want the dog to be introduced to the helper in defense. This is a well planned, careful process. When dogs are introduced to protection this way it is more real, and it is easier to keep a dog balanced in their drives for protection. We always want the dog to see the helper as a threat at some level. A Dog balanced in drive has much more power than if they were worked solely in prey. This dog will strike the sleeve not take like it is a gift.
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:28 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I don't know of any good experienced Schutzhund training helpers who will work their own dog in protection. Our TD does not even talk to the helper while they are working his dog, as it has a negative effect on the dog's working ability. He will use a clicker to communicate to the helper to give the bite.

We do not start dogs in protection on a helper either until they are 12 to 14 months old. Up to that point we do a lot of prey work with a tug. The reason is that we want the dog to be introduced to the helper in defense. This is a well planned, careful process. When dogs are introduced to protection this way it is more real, and it is easier to keep a dog balanced in their drives for protection. We always want the dog to see the helper as a threat at some level. A Dog balanced in drive has much more power than if they were worked solely in prey. This dog will strike the sleeve not take like it is a gift.
Would that not cue the dog to bite on the click?
Genuine question.
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Old 11-23-2012, 09:45 AM   #8 (permalink)
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There are a lot of great comments on here in reply to your question. Talk with your club and get your direction there as they are the ones helping your and your dog on this journey. We have had many members of our club try to do what you are doing and as a helper I will say it most all of the time causes more harm that good and more work for the helper. When we get someone who is wanting to build more drive for the bite work we will sometimes show them as suggested above show them how to play with a tug with their dog. Please for you and your dog take your time it will pay off and get the influence and direction of your club and if you do not agree with what they have to say then maybe you need to find another club that is a better fit for you.
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Old 11-24-2012, 04:41 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Would that not cue the dog to bite on the click?
Genuine question.
No, the cue for the bite to the dog is the helper raising a stick to simulate an attack on the dog or in the case of a back transport dog/handler team. Our dogs are pretty focused on the helper at this point. There is always a bit of delay anyway between the click and the bite, 1-3 seconds, anyway so the cue still comes from the helper. In addition our dogs are trained beyond the motivational stage to have a lot of distraction in the work. Even in obedience, the rewards are intermittent in the proofing stage and the clicker is going off regular as a marker so I don't think they would completely rely on it anyway. If they are associating the clicker with a coming reward (bite) or with marking their behavior that is ok as well. This would be because the bite comes only after the dog is doing desirable behavior. Mainly maintaining intense guarding and barking.
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