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Old 11-12-2012, 08:15 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I am not attacking you, I am just curious... how did you not know the pup was 3 weeks instead of 4? Did you not read over the papers BEFORE you took the puppy?

I am glad you are reaching out for help, because this is just a terrible situation. I do hope these puppies make it with no complications...
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:22 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kindafugly View Post
And actually the puppy isnt 4 weeks old. Looking at the paperwork he is actually only 3 weeks. So he is being bottled fed along with some canned mixed with milk replacer. He is the sweetest guy ever and had adopted me as his mother.

and to the person who said about AKC. There not registered with AKC. Its CKC and ICA which ive never heard of.
how about pebbles and bam bam
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:38 PM   #28 (permalink)
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You made a terrible mistake giving money to a greeder like this. Don't try to justify it.

Perhaps this article will help you understand a bit more about where we are coming from.



“I consider him a rescue.” | Ruffly Speaking

Quote:
Person A shows up with a puppy. Person B says "Oh, such a cutie! Where'd you get him?"

Person A says "Well, I got him from a pet store, but they said he was getting so old that they were going to send him back to the broker!"

or

"I got him from somebody selling puppies online, and when I got there the conditions were so bad I had to buy him!"

or

"I called a breeder about puppies in the Want Ads, and she said that she had a puppy she was going to put down because he was sick!"

or

"When I got there, I knew I shouldn't buy him, but I bonded instantly with him and I had to take him!"



and they always, ALWAYS end with

"So I consider him a rescue."



Well, I consider my hand to be a pumpkin pie, but so far reality has not responded to my wishes.

That was NOT a rescue. That was a PURCHASE. And it is a purchase that rewarded, usually amply, the person selling the puppy.



My next favorite part is when person B says something like the following:

"Well, it doesn't matter where dogs come from, as long as they find love!"

or

"I am sure you couldn't have left him behind!"

or

"I am so glad that you gave him this wonderful happy ending!"

or

"I can't believe nobody bought him before you! Good for you for buying him!"



Two words:

BULL

PUCKY.



Do you REALLY think it doesn't matter where dogs come from, as long as they get carried off into the sunrise, surrounded by butterflies and the sound of an autoharp? Seriously?

Do you think it does that person a BIT of good to have their PURCHASE given your stamp of approval?

Because here's who DOESN'T go off into the sunrise:

- All the other dogs in that pet store, which can continue in business another day because YOU just paid their rent and salaries and covered the pittance they paid for that puppy.

- The next corgi puppy or Lab puppy or Shepherd puppy who gets ordered from Hunte Corp. because YOU showed them there's a market for this breed, so we'd better get two next time.

- The other dogs in that breeder's home, who will now be bred again because wow, she just covered six months of electric bill in a single day thanks to YOUR check, so she WILL breed those dogs again.

- The mother dog in the puppy mill somewhere in the Midwest, who will be bred again because Hunt corp got a ton of orders for corgis or Labs or Shepherds or Poodles this month.

- The other dogs in your puppy's litter, who were sold to who knows what people with zero screening or any qualifications other than a credit card.



There is a sacred rule upon which our entire society is built: The end does not justify the means.

It is a GOOD thing that the puppy is going to have a good life. That does not justify the tens or hundreds or thousands of BAD things that had to occur to get him to that point.



Your dog is a rescue if he came from a rescue. A rescue is an organization desperately trying to put itself out of business.

Your dog is NOT a rescue if he came from a pet store. A pet store is a place trying to STAY in business.

Your dog is NOT a rescue if he came from a breeder. And that includes a good one; my puppies are not "adopted" or "rescued" or anything of the kind. I SELL puppies. The difference is that a good breeder doesn't view anything she does as a business, and if she did she'd be the worst businessperson on the planet. She sells puppies based on the accomplishments of their parents and she loses money. A bad breeder is trying to make breeding their business, selling puppies based on the value of cuteness and maximizing profits however is possible. But even when you buy from the best breeder on earth, YOU ARE NOT RESCUING.

And STOP mouthing those hideous platitudes about how it doesn't matter where a dog comes from as long as it's loved. You do no one any favors when you justify giving hundreds or thousands of dollars to a machine that grinds up dogs and spits them out dead.

When you buy from a pet store or puppy mill or bad breeder, you create pain ten times the size of the good you've done. When you encourage that purchase, you're scratching the chin of a business that can only be called evil.

STOP IT.



if you did something wrong, if you made a mistake, even if you knew it was wrong and said heck with it, I'm doing it anyway, OWN IT. Say "I did something really stupid, something I hope you don't ever do, something I hope nobody ever does."

If somebody comes to you chirruping about a puppy, say "He's gorgeous, but you can never, never do that again and here's why." Will it offend people? Absolutely. Will they think you're mean and uncharitable and go away saying "I don't regret a single thing I did! I'd do it again!" For sure.

But the thing is, they WON'T do it again. The next time they stop in front of a pet store window, they'll hear your voice and they'll feel just a little bit ashamed, and they will NOT go back in. They may attribute the wiggle in their gut as a desire for Cinnabon that's greater than their desire to see a Beagle puppy, but the result is the same. A puppy does not get purchased.

And if enough are not purchased, that pet store will go out of business. Don't think it can happen? It does all the time. When I was a kid, everybody got every pet from a pet store, and there were little mom and pop pet stores in every town. Now, I can think of only four or five within two hours of me. Those are staying in business because they have the tiny designer dogs of the moment; I haven't seen a big dog in a pet store in New England in years. IT'S WORKING.

And if enough pet stores go out of business, Hunte will go out of business. And when that happens, thousands of puppy mills will simply shutter their doors. There will be a massive increase in dog auctions for six months and then they'll blessedly go away. And THAT is the true end we want.

Don't settle for anything else.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:34 PM   #29 (permalink)
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What bothers me, OP, is how you seem somehow immune to our reactions of horror at this tragic situation.

Now, come on, you've had the puppies long enough that you could have contacted AC multiple times prior to Veterans Day, which, by the way, is a poor excuse for just not wanting to put the time in.

Judging by your brief PM to me which reads, "john pave, northern ar", you really don't want to sell out this scumbag for some reason. What he's doing is WRONG. And by giving him so much as a penny, what you've done was WRONG. So you need to own up to that first and foremost, and stop pretending all is A-okay and you'll just go about your business searching for pet names.

I posted on your other thread exactly what you wrote to me. I hope you will update it as well, like you said you would. Get those puppies to the Vet tomorrow, and while you're there, why don't you share with the Vet when/where and from whom you got them and ask if there's anything that can be done about getting AC on him PRONTO. And then, make the call to AC or whichever agency you need to contact in order to get them out there. If you want to help the sires, dams, puppies and God knows what other animals might be suffering under his tyranny, then you cannot drag your feet on this.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:59 PM   #30 (permalink)
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It blows my mind that someone would sell a three week old puppy. What a worthless POS. Sadly it appears Arkansas does not have any laws prohibiting the sale of puppies under 8 weeks old (18 states do). When doing the research, I found this and thought it explained at least partially why puppies NEED to stay with their mothers.

"Separating puppies from their mothers at too young and age can create both health and socialization problems. Early separation removes the opportunity for puppies to taught appropriate behavior. For example, puppies learn social structures, dominance, and patience. When separated too early, a foundation for training can be more difficult to establish. Early separation can result in separation anxiety, destructive behavior and lack of bite inhibition. One study using a control group found that disease susceptibility and mortality was higher in puppies with a shorter maternal contact period.

Early separation from the mother and the resulting loss of learning appropriate behavior is one of the causes of behavioral problems that can lead to a dog being relinquished to a shelter. This situation can make these dogs more difficult to adopt and, in worst scenarios, can be a public safety threat and contribute to the likelihood of dog bites."
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:06 AM   #31 (permalink)
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See i thought all states is 6 weeks non breeders and 8 weeks for breeders. Apparently according to meldrew that law does apply in Arkansas. Which really doesnt suprise me one bit. Its not uncommon to see dead dogs hit by cars on a daily basis. People actually set up on street corners and walmarts selling there puppies and dump what they dont see. At my local walmart currently theres this old female terrier mix dog who has a football sized tumor hanging from her milk bags looking for food and has been there for over a year. No one can catch her. If our AC could catch her she would be held 3 days then put down. They do not do adoptions. They just put them down in 3 days if owners dont claim.

So thats why i dont believe contacting animal control will do any good but like i said ill honor my statement and make the call and give what little information i have. Arkansas really dont care about animals. 2yrs ago i was at the next downs animal shelter and they had 3 adult dobies there with ears croped nice looking dogs. But deemed unadoptable and were either PTS or live there lifes there in a kennel.

But anyways the names public so have yourself a blast and stop painting me as the bad person here. To answer the other posters question. No i did not look at registration papers prior to taking them home. I looked briefly, But was going to write down DOB for the vet visits tomarrow and found out he isnt 4 weeks till the 16th.

My question being though would anyone even care if there were just mutts? Or is this treatment simply because there dobermans.

Either way now that everyone has all the information out in the open id appreciate if i ever post again for information in regards to raising or training a doberman properly they not be blown up into your a horrible person for buying a byb puppy. Im not the only one on this forum that has bought a puppy from what everyone deems a reputable breeder.

The situation is already done and over.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:11 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Im sorry benvera that i do not have the reaction your wanting. Its kinda hard to have a normal discussion on this topic with everyone jumping on you and thinking your a terrible person which im not even going to try and change anyones minds. So if im a bit cold on the subject this is why. I think not wanting to post information publicly was my right. I had offered it to whom ever wanted in a private message. What they were to do with the information was on them.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:24 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kindafugly View Post
What do i do about the rest? If they wont sell the adults you cant steal them. Like i said i am going to contact the countys animal control tomarrow to have them check into the situation.

But truth be told this goes on everywhere. If he is properly caring for his dogs and breeding them in humane conditions nothing can be done anyways. Puppymills are USDA liceanced and allowed the breed hundereds of puppies and sell them as long as they meet the required care for the mother and puppies. So besides have AC check into the situation and if all checks out nothing more can be done.

Like i said previously i fostered for a rescue many years ago the things ive seen in that time span and no one can do anything about it other then be thankful you made a difference in those dogs lifes you have made better. If i didnt take those two pups someone else would have for more money and probably ending up breeding them. Theres so many things we can say might have happened or will happened.
Im not trying to be a ass or hard to deal with. Im just asking besides contacting animal control and if they cant do nothing what more can someone do? This happens alot around here and all to often.
To the two parts I bolded:

The first is a fantasy folks tell themselves so they can feel all noble about the unethical action they took--by buying greeder puppies.

The second--what more can a person do? They can NOT EVER BUY FROM SCUM LIKE THIS. And they can instead adopt from a reputable rescue or pull from a shelter or do their due diligence, save their money, and buy from an ethical breeder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kindafugly View Post
I will update it, Im having them checked by the vet in the morning as well. See what kinda parasites are in there cause im sure there in there. I already gave them a mild wormer my vet gave me 2 months ago. Its fine to use on puppies 2 pounds or more being 3 weeks plus.

I think im going to name the little guy Thor. I hate them being just nameless puppies.

But thanks for everyone being more understanding. I just hate feelings like im the one who are doing wrong when im not. Ive been doing alot of online research on raising dobies and reading topics on this forum.

To the bold: You already DID do wrong, and you cannot undo it. And folks won't let it go when you're unapologetic and even trying to paint the pretty little lie that you are a rescuer.

If you were a real rescuer, you'd know better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kindafugly View Post
See i thought all states is 6 weeks non breeders and 8 weeks for breeders. Apparently according to meldrew that law does apply in Arkansas. Which really doesnt suprise me one bit. Its not uncommon to see dead dogs hit by cars on a daily basis. People actually set up on street corners and walmarts selling there puppies and dump what they dont see. At my local walmart currently theres this old female terrier mix dog who has a football sized tumor hanging from her milk bags looking for food and has been there for over a year. No one can catch her. If our AC could catch her she would be held 3 days then put down. They do not do adoptions. They just put them down in 3 days if owners dont claim.

So thats why i dont believe contacting animal control will do any good but like i said ill honor my statement and make the call and give what little information i have. Arkansas really dont care about animals. 2yrs ago i was at the next downs animal shelter and they had 3 adult dobies there with ears croped nice looking dogs. But deemed unadoptable and were either PTS or live there lifes there in a kennel.

But anyways the names public so have yourself a blast and stop painting me as the bad person here. To answer the other posters question. No i did not look at registration papers prior to taking them home. I looked briefly, But was going to write down DOB for the vet visits tomarrow and found out he isnt 4 weeks till the 16th.

My question being though would anyone even care if there were just mutts? Or is this treatment simply because there dobermans.

Either way now that everyone has all the information out in the open id appreciate if i ever post again for information in regards to raising or training a doberman properly they not be blown up into your a horrible person for buying a byb puppy. Im not the only one on this forum that has bought a puppy from what everyone deems a reputable breeder.

The situation is already done and over.
The situation isn't done and over, until you quit defending your bad choices.

I haven't seen one person get onto you for the care of the puppies, which is what you keep trying to make it about.

What folks here find appalling is your attitude about having rewarded pure scum with your money.

To the sentence I bolded: How do you have puppies for sale...and not be a "breeder"?

Pups should not leave Mom until eight weeks, and hopefully at some point it will be Federal law.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:32 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Good luck, i think is all i can say.
My ONE is a handful so god knows with two, and to have to teach them both individually how to be a dog as its not learnt off its mother.

The only thing standing between you and being a terrible person is not educating other people that what you have gone thru is not right.
No puppy should leave their mother at that age.
The only thing terrible you are doing is protecting this person and giving them more of a chance to do the same thing again.

No one is jumping on you about the dogs anymore, as you have them its a done deal.
All you can do is stick around and seriously read alot of everything.
People here have been in rescues and are obviously animal lovers, so using that card that you have a soft heart because youv been helping a rescue for a little while doesnt really budge with me. Its common sense not a soft heart.

I really suggest you read about
Littermate syndrome, Bite inhibition etc and as for the names..
I do like pebbles and bambam what someone else suggested.

Again, Good Luck.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:40 AM   #35 (permalink)
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OP is there any chance you can find a litter of a similar age to let your 3 week old play with?
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:44 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I never said i rescued these puppies, I admited i made a poor decision by giving a deposit before meeting the breeder or even seeing pictures of the pup or its parents. I took his word when we first talked about the puppy and he had others on facebook saying how he is a great breeder. So no i didnt poke into the situation. I WILL take blame for that.

As far as buying the other puppy and talking him into a discount price for both just to get him a warm place to stay and out of a barn from the sounds of it where they were kepted. I dont regret that. I get it, any money even how little lined his pockets even if it was very little.

I understand peoples points of views. Everyone has there opinions. I just personally dont like being attacked. I am much more understanding to just having a civil discussion rather then rudeness and being cut down.

Like i said this is done and over with. I got the puppies now. I didnt know until the night of me getting them there were any red flags. This was my first time purchasing puppies from a breeder. All my past dogs were either adopted or given to me. Ok lesson learned i need to grow a set and ask more questions next time i want to buy from a breeder.

I do not know anyone with a nursing mother. However my older dog is doing great about being a surrogate for them. I did find the county AC they said they would need a address. I told them i did not know it they said they would try and do further checking to see if they could locate the guy and his address and take a look. I asked if there had been any other reports that they knew of with the name and they said no.

My vet appointment for these guys is in alittle bit and ill update on how that goes.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:12 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I hope you get some good news from the Vet about their health. They're so fragile. Please give an update when you can.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:24 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Yes, I will send vibes they check out okay at the vet visit.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:36 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kindafugly View Post
I understand peoples points of views. Everyone has there opinions. I just personally dont like being attacked. I am much more understanding to just having a civil discussion rather then rudeness and being cut down.
I hope you understand that people know that you know you didn't do the right thing.The reason they're drilling a little is because they want others to see what a mistake it is to purchase from this type of breeder, and because this forum is dedicated to educating on the breed and enlightening people on backyard breeders.

You're right, the people on this forum need to relax a little bit, but in return you need to continue learning and admitting your faults. You don't need pride in this situation, you need help and right here is where you'll find a lot of that.

Please consider starting a new thread for the two of them in which you can update us with pictures and information on them and what you plan on doing with them to ensure that they are successful adult dogs. I really hope you do stay on this forum and learn all that you can.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:59 PM   #40 (permalink)
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My vet appointment for these guys is in alittle bit and ill update on how that goes.
thank goodness...and please, listen to EVERYTHING the vet says.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:12 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Can u say what part of Arkansas this "breeder" is from. I'm in NW Arkansas
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:22 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I wonder if the breeder sold you the puppies this early because they're mixed breed? It's a shame you even took the puppies this early. I would call animal control for sure.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:05 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Am I really reading this?! Someone PURCHASED puppies at 3 weeks old??? wow..... just wow.

See, this is the mistake you are making- you think you have done something good for these puppies, but in fact you are hurting each and every puppy left at that hell hole, not to mention the poor parents What you SHOULD have done is recognized the situation for what it was and called animal control at that time instead of giving money to support the scum that you PAID for service.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:09 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Honestly, I wouldnt ever take puppies at that age, even if I was taking from a breeder who was clean, ethical and took care of their dogs. So you really are a party to this circus, whether you want to believe it or not.
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:00 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Green, As posted above i already contacted them for what good it will or will not do. Far as them being mixed i mean if they are i can go through CKC and attest the purebred status of the puppies and he would have to have them DNA tested and if they arent he would be banned from there registery. If i read the paperwork right.

Vet said they have worms which i suspected and coccsidia but mildly. There on medication for it now. He said there both hydrated, They dont have pale gums or anything like that. He said just keep doing what im doing and he dont think there will be any complications. Of course they will need to have a fecal redone to check how things are progressing. Of course if they start showing signs of not feeling well to bring them back in. So all and all its good news.
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:23 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Wait a minute...

This guy is in the AKC registry, but you don't have any information other than his name?! Am I missing something or can any BYB AKC-register their pups? Don't they have to prove they're purebred by having records of their lineage? Don't they have to provide their contact info at the very least?!

Which agency did you contact? Did AC say they'd be able to locate him and go to his house? Or does another agency have to do it because he's out in the country?
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Old 11-13-2012, 08:53 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Im confused by your post benvera. I dont know if he is in the AKC registery or not. The papers i have are not AKC.

But thinking on it ill call the registery in the AM. These papers had to be sent to his address. If they will give me that info or not is another question. I might be able to give more info if all goes well!
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