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Old 11-11-2012, 01:25 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Knuckling pup

We checked out a litter of pups and we connected with a male who had knuckling in one foot . Should we avoid this guy? It will be our first doberman.
From reading through threads it seems to be correctable.
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Old 11-11-2012, 02:37 PM   #2 (permalink)
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A lot of puppies knuckle over at some point in their development and it's generally not something to worry about. But there are also structural abnormalities, some of them quite severe, that can cause this. No way of knowing what is going on with this individual puppy without seeing it and even knowing the pedigree.
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Old 11-11-2012, 06:29 PM   #3 (permalink)
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What does the breeder say about it?

Has this pup been seen by a vet?

I agree that knowing the pedigree would be a helpful first step, in trying to answer your question.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:20 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Carpal Flexural Deformity, aka knuckling over or bowed legs

Here's part of the story about a pup who was thought to be knuckling over, but who in reality had a very serious condition called Angular Limb Deformity.

His owners really tried, but in the end could not meet the expenses of all his astronomical vet bills and surgery costs, so had to make the heartbreaking decision to give him up to a rescue who then had to try to raise the money:

Leg Bone/Growth concern? Pics inside.

This particular pup's breeder, Margo Richards, did not choose to help with the puppy at all.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:04 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I've seen this many times in many dogs' pedigrees. Knowing the pedigree of this "knockling over" issue is meaningless.

The posters are looking to trap you into disclosing that you have a BYB dog.

It can happen to any dog. Sometimes rarely, it is something different.

I've seen it in more breeds than the Doberman. It is common of the larger breed puppies.
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:18 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Seems to me like there is time to suggest avoiding a BYB as the dog is not in hand according to the first post......
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:38 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Point taken...

But making an issue of a commonality, of many large breeds, which is often benign, is not correct.

Pointing to BYB as the cause of all malidities, is going to get the real breeders problems, since many of these things are common period.

Someday, people will figure out that breeds have problems, or dogs have problems, and nobody has the key to perfection.

I think folks should buy from a reputable breeder. I do not back up the BYB but making statements that the "reputable breeder" is problem free is going to haunt us for many years.

Soon the public will find out that its just not true. Breeds have problems no matter who they came from. Then, the idea old BYB is better idea since they are not "linebred" will cause us many more problems.

It sort of goes with "mutts have better health."

I hate that right now its sold that the "reputable" breeder has the key. Because, right now the "reputable" breeder may not be doing what's right either.

Just as in anything else, all folks have their own standards of "reputable."

I think this forum tends to get carried away "chastising" uninformed new people which is not good for educating anyone. Most people started out with a BYB dog. It is only with time that they become more informed.

But being informed by "chastising," which is so common on this forum, may not be a good thing either.

Not pointing this at you Emily B. Its just something I've noticed here, and it bothers me when someone is really bashed, because they don't know any better.
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Old 11-11-2012, 10:56 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Point taken...

But making an issue of a commonality, of many large breeds, which is often benign, is not correct.

Pointing to BYB as the cause of all malidities, is going to get the real breeders problems, since many of these things are common period.

Someday, people will figure out that breeds have problems, or dogs have problems, and nobody has the key to perfection.

I think folks should buy from a reputable breeder. I do not back up the BYB but making statements that the "reputable breeder" is problem free is going to haunt us for many years.

Soon the public will find out that its just not true. Breeds have problems no matter who they came from. Then, the idea old BYB is better idea since they are not "linebred" will cause us many more problems.

It sort of goes with "mutts have better health."

I hate that right now its sold that the "reputable" breeder has the key. Because, right now the "reputable" breeder may not be doing what's right either.

Just as in anything else, all folks have their own standards of "reputable."

I think this forum tends to get carried away "chastising" uninformed new people which is not good for educating anyone. Most people started out with a BYB dog. It is only with time that they become more informed.

But being informed by "chastising," which is so common on this forum, may not be a good thing either.

Not pointing this at you Emily B. Its just something I've noticed here, and it bothers me when someone is really bashed, because they don't know any better.
You always seem to have a major chip on your shoulder. Yes, forums, not just this one, have their hot buttons that the regulars usually jump all over. Knowing the pedigree can indeed be helpful. The breeder should absolutely know if this is something considered normal for their puppies in this stage of development, or if they have ever encountered something more serious relating to this in their lines that might concern them with this puppy. *I* would have no idea about their pedigree, they need to talk to the breeder about it.

I never said or even implied that all puppies that knuckle over at a particular age are from byb's. I said that a lot of puppies do and it's normally not something to worry about. But there are other possibilities that could be serious, although yes, as you said, they are rare.

So yes, I think the OP should ask the *breeder* about the puppy, their pedigree, and what they are used to seeing from it. The pedigree would do me no good at all, I'm not a doberman breeder.
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Old 11-12-2012, 01:44 PM   #9 (permalink)
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You always seem to have a major chip on your shoulder. Yes, forums, not just this one, have their hot buttons that the regulars usually jump all over. Knowing the pedigree can indeed be helpful. The breeder should absolutely know if this is something considered normal for their puppies in this stage of development, or if they have ever encountered something more serious relating to this in their lines that might concern them with this puppy. *I* would have no idea about their pedigree, they need to talk to the breeder about it.

I never said or even implied that all puppies that knuckle over at a particular age are from byb's. I said that a lot of puppies do and it's normally not something to worry about. But there are other possibilities that could be serious, although yes, as you said, they are rare.

So yes, I think the OP should ask the *breeder* about the puppy, their pedigree, and what they are used to seeing from it. The pedigree would do me no good at all, I'm not a doberman breeder.
Sorry Julie, this was not meant to be about you. I just get so tired of the "unknowing public" coming on here, where they do have a chance to get information, only them being sent down a different direction. They then leave with ashes in their mouths.

I have come to believe that all this stuff can backfire on us.

I vividily recall the beginnings of the Animal Rights Movement and what seemed a good idea quickly becoming a bad. At the beginnings of it, I was asked to even be a "director." So that is why I am sensitive to things like this.

I am still thinking about writting some sort of information book for the public to read as I find the general public to be so misinformed or even non informed.

Just yesterday at the local breed match a bunch of us "reputable" breeders were standing around and talking about how little the public knows. They ask if the health testing has been done but have no knowledge of the meaning of such.

So it is not just on these forums of which I speak. It is that I believe in my heart, that we can really mess things up, as once upon a time the Animal Rights Movement was in fact, a good movement. Only, people who were missinformed got in and totally turned its intended direction.

So I shudder when I see this "beating up" of the public. I also shudder when I see BYB's come on forums and likewise get beat up. It is always easier to catch more flies with honey then vinigar.

By showing the BYB person what really is going on, we win more. I really don't think everybody is bad. I'd like to win some of that other side over in fact.

I'm sorry you took it as toward you. Really, I read through these things so fast, or don't even read all the comments, that I in fact, see things as going a different way, one which is waiting to take off, in a different wrong direction, and respond. So that may in fact be my fault.

If anyone wants to call it a "chip" on the shoulder so be it. I don't believe newcomers should be so beat up, they leave and never come back. Many "reputable" breeders have also, in fact, left due to this. This has weakened the forum of discussion here.
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:23 PM   #10 (permalink)
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^^^Welllllll, that was a nice little visit to Planet Delusional.

Anyhow, OP, have you had a chance to see the pup's pedigree?

If it does happen to be all BYB stuff, then you're likely not going to get good information on the incidence of ortho issues, albeit minor or severe.

If this is a knowledgeable, ethical breeder, and the pedigree is full of tested animals, and the breeder knows the relatives of this puppy well, you should be able to get some good answers from them, as to whether this is a puppy you feel comfortable purchasing.
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Old 11-12-2012, 04:41 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I say if your up for the cost and challenge of raising a special needs puppy then go for it. I wouldnt pay full price for a puppy with apparent issues but if you connected with the puppy and are up for any challenges put in your way by all means go for it.

Special needs dogs are sometimes the BEST dogs.

I wont comment on if the breeder is good or bad because i dont know the breeder but even GOOD breeders have puppies that have issues sometimes. Like someone said on here it happens.

Do your research on the issue and ask the breeder questions on the condition and make your choice wisely. best wishes to you!
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:05 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I say if your up for the cost and challenge of raising a special needs puppy then go for it. I wouldnt pay full price for a puppy with apparent issues but if you connected with the puppy and are up for any challenges put in your way by all means go for it.

Special needs dogs are sometimes the BEST dogs.

I wont comment on if the breeder is good or bad because i dont know the breeder but even GOOD breeders have puppies that have issues sometimes. Like someone said on here it happens.

Do your research on the issue and ask the breeder questions on the condition and make your choice wisely. best wishes to you!
Puppies knuckling over during developmental stages could hardly be classified as special needs. It's normal. Whether the puppy in question has normal knuckling over or something more severe is impossible for us to say without seeing the puppy.
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