Carpal Flexural Deformity, aka knuckling over or bowed legs - Page 2 - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums

R Green · 04-03-2012, 09:02 PM

Axel's Mom, I commend you for your dedication to the little guy. I agree with you about the blood pressure when the fact that previous litters sired by the same stud had this problem does not speak well of the breeder.

Axel does look a lot better. I wonder if another, larger set of braces will help continue the straightening. Bless you and Axel.

Axel's Mom · 04-04-2012, 12:20 AM

Yeah, I've been thinking about that. They require a prescription from a vet, so I need to schedule an appt when I get home next week to see him and see what he says.

**EmilyB** · 04-04-2012, 12:55 AM

What a horrible thing for a pup and its' owners to go through and it will never end as long as people support BYB's.

Lycn.chan · 05-09-2012, 11:20 AM

wow! He looks so much better! I never knew that could happen to dogs.
Thank you for your post.

LindaH · 05-09-2012, 02:03 PM

Knuckling over isnt exclusively a backyard breeder problem. We have had well bred pups with it on here, too. Can be one or a combination of factors such as heredity, improper exercise and/or nutrition. Mainly an owner education problem from what I've seen on here.

**dobegal** · 05-09-2012, 04:02 PM

Thank you for your informative thread. I am so glad that Axel has you in his corner. You have great strength and determination and knowing this will help Axel Good luck.

JayDeezy · 05-10-2012, 05:27 PM

I'm really glad that Axel ended up with such a dedicated owner... there are a lot of ppl that wouldn't put in half the effort that you did.

Eisenherz · 05-10-2012, 11:05 PM

So glad that poor guy is doing better.

I have done a fair bit of research on orthopedic disorders and found that calcium is more often the culprit than protein, despite the mass opinion that protein is what we need to stay away from.

Did everyone know that in some breeds, excess calcium is known to cause bowing of the front legs? I found this in some veterinary journals monthly articles and followed up on them and I will try to post some links later on.

Does the OP know what the total calcium level was in the food he was eating early on? It was previously thought that the ratio was the crucial part- that was incorrect, apparently. Now, the latest research shows that the total dietary intake of calcium is what's important.

Here's a pic- not the same exact thing, but a puppy from a repeat breeding of 100% healthy joints...except the only one who was fed 3x more calcium than a large pup should have.

**EmilyB** · 05-10-2012, 11:19 PM

I didn't mean it was. This puppy owner and others in the past have gone through this without breeder support however. What does that say to you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LindaH

Knuckling over isnt exclusively a backyard breeder problem. We have had well bred pups with it on here, too. Can be one or a combination of factors such as heredity, improper exercise and/or nutrition. Mainly an owner education problem from what I've seen on here.

Axel's Mom · 05-11-2012, 09:30 AM

The momma and the puppies were all fed Diamond Extreme Athlete food until I got him. Then I switched to a natural balance food.

http://www.diamondpet.com/products/d...treme_athlete/

Axel's Mom · 05-11-2012, 09:34 AM

I did have limited support from the breeder. However, he kept saying to leave him be and it would get better on its own like all the other puppies he'd had that had this problem. He even suggested a calcium supplement, but my vet said no to that. I really believe that Axel's legs would be much more crooked now if I hadn't intervened.

Eisenherz · 05-11-2012, 07:01 PM

That is NOT puppy food. Yeeesh. What was he thinking?! I can't easily find the calcium content, but the calories alone plus fat and protein are pretty insane for a little pup. I don't know what Natural Balance you were using so I can't look that one up either, but it was probably ok, so long as it was intended for large breed puppies.

I wonder if more than one pup had it due to the way he fed them early on!

Axel's Mom · 05-15-2012, 03:41 PM

His legs look pretty good at times. Here he is hogging my sister's GSD's old soccer ball.

LindaH · 05-15-2012, 03:54 PM

They certainly look better than before. I would need to see a front view to really see what you are talking about, tho. He certainly looks in excellent condition and like a normal rowdy boy pup.

It looks to me like the Diamond food has way too much fat, which is a lot of the calories he didn't need. Calcium is probably too much also. Am still looking for that. A mathmatical genius I am not, but betting the carbs in the Extreme Athlete are high seeing as they are slightly less or equal in weight to the chicken meal. The plain "chicken" contains water which once removed places the chicken much lower on the ingredient list.

You can see the fat content of the Orijen LBP food here. Note the fat and carb %.

Orijen

Axel's Mom · 11-13-2012, 03:09 AM

Update photo:

Axel is now over a year old. His legs are still a little pigeon-toed, but he's amazing. Nothing stops him from running full speed, doing zoomies, or turning on a dime.

vivienne00 · 11-13-2012, 10:01 AM

Thank you for your dedication and terrific work with Axel. And thank you for putting this thread on DT - it helps people all the time.

His feet are a little easty-westy or toed-out, not pigeon-toed (pigeon-toed toes in). I think he looks fabulous and one would never know he had endured such a difficult problem. I bet he is the most tolerant and gentle dog around, right? That is my experience that those that have trouble as young pups and learn to put up with pain and manipulation are very stable and tolerant.

RedFawnRising · 11-13-2012, 11:29 AM

So happy to see him enjoying his life.

Bless you, for all you've done for him.

Axel's Mom · 11-15-2012, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vivienne00

Thank you for your dedication and terrific work with Axel. And thank you for putting this thread on DT - it helps people all the time.

His feet are a little easty-westy or toed-out, not pigeon-toed (pigeon-toed toes in). I think he looks fabulous and one would never know he had endured such a difficult problem. I bet he is the most tolerant and gentle dog around, right? That is my experience that those that have trouble as young pups and learn to put up with pain and manipulation are very stable and tolerant.

My bad... You're right, I used the wrong term to describe his feet pointing out. Thanks.

honda123 · 11-15-2012, 09:52 PM

[quote= Axel's littermate who also had this is a female. I later found out that the "breeder" had several pups who experienced this (he failed to mention this to me when I asked about medical conditions in his dogs.) I think it may be more strongly related to genetics than gender. Also he was feeding his brand new pups a 32% protein dog food.[/QUOTE]

I'm curious, was it a puppy food? Too much calcium can cause this. Too much protein absolutely is to blame, especially for the large to XLg breeds.
I've seen pups go down to 18% protein and do just fine.

You are great for seeking specialists and documenting your success. He looks like a happy boy.

PS: try to get his nails as short as possible to tighten up his feet. In the beginning, you may have to keep the nails a wee longer than "short," in order to let the nail quick recede. But, get on those nails! Even if you have to go to a professional groomer and have them use as Dremmel. It'll cost around $10-$14 and so worth it.

Axel's Mom · 11-20-2012, 09:27 AM

They were feeding mom and pups an "extreme athlete" dog food that is high in protein.

And yes, I'm working on getting those nails under control!

Mina's Mom · 11-23-2012, 02:55 PM

Thank you so much for this post. Mina is 8 weeks old and is showing signs of the same problem. It's not too bad yet and it seems like after she plays for a little while with my other dog it looks a little worse. Thanks for all of the tips you've shared! She goes to the vet on Tuesday to get her ears cropped so I will bring it to his attention. I haven't talked to the breeder yet, but I intend on it after this post. Thanks again!

Oh and I just wanted to add that she is on Nutrisource large breed puppy food (chicken).

Axel's Mom · 11-26-2012, 02:04 PM

If it's worse after activity (which was the same for Axel) then you need to keep her activity limited unless you put supports on her legs to strengthen them.

Also, make sure the large breed puppy food is low in protein to keep her growing slowly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mina's Mom

Thank you so much for this post. Mina is 8 weeks old and is showing signs of the same problem. It's not too bad yet and it seems like after she plays for a little while with my other dog it looks a little worse. Thanks for all of the tips you've shared! She goes to the vet on Tuesday to get her ears cropped so I will bring it to his attention. I haven't talked to the breeder yet, but I intend on it after this post. Thanks again!

Oh and I just wanted to add that she is on Nutrisource large breed puppy food (chicken).

Darkevs · 11-27-2012, 11:07 AM

Thanks for keeping us updated on how Axel is doing!! He does look great!

it amazes me how many others have had the same issue as Axel.

Hugz to Axel!

marymouse · 02-02-2013, 04:58 PM

My new puppy was suppose to be shipped this weekend, well she developed bowed legs, so the breeder is keeping her longer so she can be perfect for me when she comes. This dog is suppose to be shown? I never had a dog with bowed legs, can someone tell me how this can happen from an exp breeder. Am I making a mistake to take this puppy once her legs are straightened out. Any advice will be appreciated. Please PM mail me I do not want to mention breeder on here.

Mary

Rosemary · 02-02-2013, 05:21 PM

You've already mentioned the breeder in another thread(s). And even with the best breeders, things don't always go as planned. I think it is good of her to keep the pup a while longer to see if it corrects or not.