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Old 11-22-2011, 11:55 AM   #1 (permalink)
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What to do about knuckling over?

HELP!! I have a 8 week old puppy that was walking and running fine till a few days ago. I had here out walking when her front legs started shaking and it looked like her knuckles where about to... i dont know it just looked weird. Its kind of like she is walking on her tip toes. I have been reading alot on the internet that a high protein diet might cause this. We have a vet appt. later this week but I want to know is there anything I can do to help her. We had here on a high protein diet which I have changed to a low protein (natural balance). Will she get better or will it always look like she is walking on her tiptoes? Please any advice is welcome. Thanks in advance.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:30 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Ripley knuckled over when he was a puppy. We were advised to give him Vtamin C and to feed him an adult food if feeding kibble. He was seen by two vets and they both recommended the same thing. We had already been planning to switch him to adult food shortly anyway, but we did right away when that happened. And we also gave him the Vit C. It wasn't long at all before he was back to normal.
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Old 11-22-2011, 12:44 PM   #3 (permalink)
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So is it human vitamin c and how much of it do i give? The breeders i got her from said to give het calcium. Do you know anything about that? And do you have any suggestions for dog food? Thanks in advance
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Old 11-22-2011, 01:15 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Hi, and welcome

My puppy was 10 wks old when I got her and knuckled 4 times till now (17weeks) It can happen till they are 6 months old. There is not too much info on it, believe me Ive searched. BUT this site and personal experience is the best advice till someone researches why it happens more. Bowed Legs, Knuckling Over in Puppies - Puppy Feed Program | GREATDANELADY.COM

I did not buy her program, but would recommend it if you can afford it. I used ADULT Wellness (purple bag, chicken recipie) and kept her on that for two months, If I changed to anything else she started knuckling again so we stayed on Wellness. I supplemented her with ONE 500mg vit C am&pm. (Human kind but must not contain anything extra, just vit C and a perservative. try dollar store) As suggested in threads posted on here. They advised to go up to ONE 1000mg am & pm but that is for more sever cases and I did not go past ONE 500mg am&pm. She was fed this way with the vit C for 5-6weeks and now has not shown signs of knuckling and is growing nicely. I read not to give calcium because it can throw off the phosperous/calcium ratio and could actually cause more problems than good.(Same for cropped ears, dont give extra calcium.) I also wrapped her ankles and braced them as per the sites recommendations.
Also use the search function at the top of the doberman talk page, search "Knuckling over" you will find many threads including mine.

Would love to see a pic of your pup and her feet, It doesn't sound that bad though.

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Old 11-22-2011, 01:54 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dobbie luv View Post
So is it human vitamin c and how much of it do i give? The breeders i got her from said to give het calcium. Do you know anything about that? And do you have any suggestions for dog food? Thanks in advance
Yep, the same stuff you'd buy for yourself. I can't remember, but I think I gave him 1 500mg tablet twice per day. I will double check when I am home later this evening though if you'd like.

I was advised not to supplement with calcium as too much calcium can cause more harm than good. I can't remember the exact consequences, but I believe it has something to do with causing a calcium build up on the joints. Calcium used to be what people used for a knuckled over puppy, but now Vit C seems to be much more commonly recommended.
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:29 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Old 11-22-2011, 04:36 PM   #7 (permalink)
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^ a few pictures. Tell me what ya'll think. Is it knuckling over? I will definitely start here on vit. C. The breeders had her on diamonds natural extreme athlete dog food. Would it be good to put her back on that? And again thanks for all the help. It makes me feel a little better knowing this might could be fixed.
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:08 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Dobbie Luv, it seems we got our dogs from the same breeder: Stonebrook Farms. My Axel is having the same problem. My vet said that it is probably because they were feeding them a high protein food as puppies. Said to switch to low protein food and the let him exercise. Where are you getting your dog's ears cropped? I am having Axel's cropped tomorrow up in Cleveland. Would love to get our dogs together sometime if you live nearby.
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:10 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Oh, and I switched his food, but didn't see improvement...and it occurred to me today that his TREATS were high protein...so I'm going to give him a couple days without those treats and see if that improves, too. Don't forget to check your treats, too.
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Old 11-27-2011, 10:54 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Hi axel's mom, yes Isis came from that litter. I have been looking everywhere for a solution to this problem and so far the only thing I have found is change to lower protein. I have done this she is now on Wellness complete health. (Purple bag). Today was her first day on it and so far she likes it. I have also been told to wrap her legs and give her vitamin C. So I am going to try that. It really scared me. I hope it gers better. We live in Carrollton and our vet here in town is going to do her ears when she is 12 weeks. I am really excited about getting that done. Please keep in touch with me and let me know how everything works out for you.
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Old 11-27-2011, 11:06 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Yes, it looks terrible and really makes you nrevous and sympathetic for the puppy. It will likely go away no matter what you do, but I would make sure you are feeding a quality adult dog instead of a puppy formula. Vitamin C may not help, but it won't hurt either.
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Old 11-27-2011, 11:17 PM   #12 (permalink)
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How much exercise does the pup get???
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Old 11-28-2011, 12:47 AM   #13 (permalink)
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The breeders said all their pups have legs like this. I wish they had told me this before I got the dog when I asked about any known health issues... I think it could be due to their feeding their nursing mom and the puppies this extreme athlete food which has 32% protein.

My pup gets plenty of exercise. He has a GSD to harass all day, and I walk him down the street a few houses and to keep his natural heeling tendencies in tune.

I've switched him to a dog food with 20% protein, but realized today I was giving him treats with 65% protein! Oops! Now that I cut out that stupidity, let's see if we can see any difference in him. I'm taking him to the vet on Tuesday to see if we need to wrap his legs, too.
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Old 11-28-2011, 01:24 AM   #14 (permalink)
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This is a problem that can be fixed in the puppies and maybe prevented in future litters? I love my dog, and I'm glad to have him.
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:58 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Some of the best advice I ever got about raising dogs (large dogs) was from a Great Dane breeder. Grow them SLOW. Too many people want the biggest bloodlines or dog possible. And the dogs pay the price from over feeding and/or too much protein. Not to say that's what the problem is with your pup or her mom. But its very possible.
Also that breeder needs some business ethics classes. Whatever the cause is bloodline or diet when the vets tells you their opinion, id dang sure tell the breeder that they need to fix it.
good luck and I recomend very little excercise until you see the vet
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Old 11-30-2011, 01:43 AM   #16 (permalink)
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The vet and I are working on how to slow down Axel's growth by changing his diet. Also said to limit activity as much as possible without being cruel, little running and jumping until the legs straighten out.

My vet actually consulted an osteo-something or another specialist up at UT. He said the above recommendations, but also said if that doesn't work, then they can try a corrective surgery to see if that helps.

I've told the breeder everything the vet has said, so whether or not he acts on it, at least I've told him. After Axel gets a little older and the story is complete, I'm thinking of seeing if the BBB or AKC might be interested in knowing. They're a licensed breeder in GA and registered with the AKC. I think he might have given dobbie luv a warning about the condition before purchase, but I didn't have that benefit, even after asking about medical conditions or issues.
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Old 11-30-2011, 01:44 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Hi axel's mom, yes Isis came from that litter. I have been looking everywhere for a solution to this problem and so far the only thing I have found is change to lower protein. I have done this she is now on Wellness complete health. (Purple bag). Today was her first day on it and so far she likes it. I have also been told to wrap her legs and give her vitamin C. So I am going to try that. It really scared me. I hope it gers better. We live in Carrollton and our vet here in town is going to do her ears when she is 12 weeks. I am really excited about getting that done. Please keep in touch with me and let me know how everything works out for you.
Axel had his ears cropped yesterday. He looks so cute with his ears posted!
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Old 11-30-2011, 03:54 AM   #18 (permalink)
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After changing Isis diet she is doing much better. I will post pictures later. I cant believe how much better she looks. I have her on wellness complete health and i give her 2 tablets vitamin c a day. Not really letting her do much running, going to try that in a day or so.
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Old 11-30-2011, 03:59 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Axels mom the only thing they told us was that her legs might start looking funny and bowing out but just give her calcium and it would be ok. I hope axel gets better. Do u have any pictures of how he looks now? Oh and glad his ears worked out ok for you.
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Old 11-30-2011, 04:10 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Here is a pic I took yesterday. He is looking a little better today, but that's happened before and then it got bad again.

I'm having to get his ears re-posted AGAIN. They keep popping out of his ears at the bottom of the post. That sucks because the vet is 50 min. away and I got deadlines at work!!
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Old 11-30-2011, 04:59 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Axels mom, you need to get some serious help, I can't beleive you got your dogs ears cropped with his legs looking like that. I also can't beleive the vet croping the ears didn't mention how bad his legs looked. The breeder is to blame, I can't beleive you are not the least bit hysterical about this whole situation. You bought a dog who obviously has genetic defects, and are content with waiting it out too possibly make a complaint with the BBB. YOu obviously have much to learn and hopefully you will stick around, especially for the sake of that poor dog. In your other post you seem to stand up for this breeder, saying they are responsive to calls ect.. Have they been that way since you have mentioned his condition. Do some searches on a dog names Tyson, he had a severe case of knuckling over, and probably one of the sadest stories I have ever seen. I'm not upset with you, not even the fact you purchased from a Bad Breeder, not even when you take up for this breeders bad practices, I am upset that the dog had to be brought into this world with these things stacked against him. Hopefully some others with more medical experience with the issue will chime in, though they are probably intentionally not here. Good Luck with your puppy and I hope it does get better.
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Old 11-30-2011, 05:29 AM   #22 (permalink)
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so heart breaking seeing those pics, I hope these pups get better.
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Old 11-30-2011, 07:30 AM   #23 (permalink)
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You have a puppy with a deformity and you worry about getting the ears cropped??? WTF??
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Old 11-30-2011, 09:14 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tperkins View Post
Axels mom, you need to get some serious help, I can't beleive you got your dogs ears cropped with his legs looking like that. I also can't beleive the vet croping the ears didn't mention how bad his legs looked. The breeder is to blame, I can't beleive you are not the least bit hysterical about this whole situation. You bought a dog who obviously has genetic defects, and are content with waiting it out too possibly make a complaint with the BBB. YOu obviously have much to learn and hopefully you will stick around, especially for the sake of that poor dog. In your other post you seem to stand up for this breeder, saying they are responsive to calls ect.. Have they been that way since you have mentioned his condition. Do some searches on a dog names Tyson, he had a severe case of knuckling over, and probably one of the sadest stories I have ever seen. I'm not upset with you, not even the fact you purchased from a Bad Breeder, not even when you take up for this breeders bad practices, I am upset that the dog had to be brought into this world with these things stacked against him. Hopefully some others with more medical experience with the issue will chime in, though they are probably intentionally not here. Good Luck with your puppy and I hope it does get better.
Wow. You have grossly underestimated me. However, I do appreciate that you express goodwill towards Axel. He deserves every ounce of it.

I got his ears cropped because he is a beautiful dog despite what's going on with his legs, and I plan on having Axel for many years, and cropped ears are beautiful on dobes. Sorry that some people don't agree I should be acknowledging that he has a future still. I checked with TWO vets before proceeding with the cropping because I was worried about the legs' condition. They both said they thought it would be okay. The vet who cropped the ears mentioned the legs and wanted a full story on them before he cropped the ears.

Yes, the breeder is to blame for continuing to breed knowing that some of his puppies go through this. I can't stop him from doing what he's going to do. It was too late by the time I found out. I could return the dog and get my money back, but honestly, I think Axel is worth the fight. I've not been afraid to mention the breeder's name on here, which is a very popular forum for the breed, and I know that will go a long way for their reputation. I'm also not going to go off on a rant about them. I don't think that will do Axel any good. I think making the BBB and AKC aware of what's going on is my best course of action right now. I'm waiting it out to file a report because I believe a complete story is a more powerful story. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

You criticize me for being collected with how I write my posts (because that's all you know about me), and not hysterical. Seriously? Just because I don't post all my emotions online for everyone to read, doesn't mean I don't have them.

I've already admitted I have a lot to learn, and I do. That's why I consult professionals with the health of my dog. I'm doing everything my vet has recommended. I'm doing everything the specialist has recommended. I came online for another resource, and I've actually learned some things from y'all, too, that the vets later confirmed. After inappropriately aggressive posts on this thread, I honestly don't know if this crowd is one that I find uplifting enough to be worth my time. I'll see. I may simply become a reader for information and just back down on the posting so as to not incur undeserved wrath.

Oh, and I don't think Axel is a "poor dog". I think he is a great dog, and I'm blessed to have him in my life, and I hope to be the same for him.

I find it good practice for keeping my cool to say something nice about someone that I'm really upset with. I see you tried to do the same by saying you're not mad at me but you're just upset at the situation. Well, I'm upset with the situation, too. But I'm trying to be productive with my posts and ask for resolutions rather than just posting rants. (Obviously except for this one post because I don't know why. I guess I just find it offensive when someone accuses me of not taking care of my dog.) And yes, the breeder is still very responsive with me even after all this.

I glanced at Tyson's story. Yes, it is unfortunate what he is going through, or went through. It looks like he is with a responsible owner who is doing their best to provide a good life for Tyson, though. I hope to do the same for Axel.

I would really appreciate it if others with more experience with the issue would present themselves or PM me. I'm open-minded, and I've discussed everything I've learned so far on this forum with my vet, and then we made decisions together on how to proceed.

Thank you for your concern about Axel. I understand sometimes people just need to get things off their chest. That's okay. Hopefully if you read this response you will feel better about Axel's environment or situation.

I've already seen some improvement in Axel's legs. My vet calls me regularly checking in and he's been in touch several times with a specialist, too. I have high hopes for Axel, and I expect to be blessed with him in my life for many years, and this will just be a distant memory one day. And so as to not worry anyone, I'll tell you that Axel will be neutered when he's old enough to prevent the possibility of spreading this condition unnecessarily.

I hope that you have a blessed and uplifting day unlike mine yesterday when I was crying because of everything that Axel is going through.
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Old 11-30-2011, 09:15 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobbie luv View Post
After changing Isis diet she is doing much better. I will post pictures later. I cant believe how much better she looks. I have her on wellness complete health and i give her 2 tablets vitamin c a day. Not really letting her do much running, going to try that in a day or so.
I'm thrilled. Very encouraging!
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