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What to do about knuckling over?

73K views 131 replies 27 participants last post by  triciakoontz 
#1 ·
HELP!! I have a 8 week old puppy that was walking and running fine till a few days ago. I had here out walking when her front legs started shaking and it looked like her knuckles where about to... i dont know it just looked weird. Its kind of like she is walking on her tip toes. I have been reading alot on the internet that a high protein diet might cause this. We have a vet appt. later this week but I want to know is there anything I can do to help her. We had here on a high protein diet which I have changed to a low protein (natural balance). Will she get better or will it always look like she is walking on her tiptoes? Please any advice is welcome. Thanks in advance.
 
#2 ·
Ripley knuckled over when he was a puppy. We were advised to give him Vtamin C and to feed him an adult food if feeding kibble. He was seen by two vets and they both recommended the same thing. We had already been planning to switch him to adult food shortly anyway, but we did right away when that happened. And we also gave him the Vit C. It wasn't long at all before he was back to normal.
 
#5 ·
Yep, the same stuff you'd buy for yourself. I can't remember, but I think I gave him 1 500mg tablet twice per day. I will double check when I am home later this evening though if you'd like.

I was advised not to supplement with calcium as too much calcium can cause more harm than good. I can't remember the exact consequences, but I believe it has something to do with causing a calcium build up on the joints. Calcium used to be what people used for a knuckled over puppy, but now Vit C seems to be much more commonly recommended.
 
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#4 · (Edited)
Hi, and welcome:)

My puppy was 10 wks old when I got her and knuckled 4 times till now (17weeks) It can happen till they are 6 months old. There is not too much info on it, believe me Ive searched. BUT this site and personal experience is the best advice till someone researches why it happens more. Bowed Legs, Knuckling Over in Puppies - Puppy Feed Program | GREATDANELADY.COM

I did not buy her program, but would recommend it if you can afford it. I used ADULT Wellness (purple bag, chicken recipie) and kept her on that for two months, If I changed to anything else she started knuckling again so we stayed on Wellness. I supplemented her with ONE 500mg vit C am&pm. (Human kind but must not contain anything extra, just vit C and a perservative. try dollar store) As suggested in threads posted on here. They advised to go up to ONE 1000mg am & pm but that is for more sever cases and I did not go past ONE 500mg am&pm. She was fed this way with the vit C for 5-6weeks and now has not shown signs of knuckling and is growing nicely. I read not to give calcium because it can throw off the phosperous/calcium ratio and could actually cause more problems than good.(Same for cropped ears, dont give extra calcium.) I also wrapped her ankles and braced them as per the sites recommendations.
Also use the search function at the top of the doberman talk page, search "Knuckling over" you will find many threads including mine.

Would love to see a pic of your pup and her feet, It doesn't sound that bad though. :)
 
#7 ·
^ a few pictures. Tell me what ya'll think. Is it knuckling over? I will definitely start here on vit. C. The breeders had her on diamonds natural extreme athlete dog food. Would it be good to put her back on that? And again thanks for all the help. It makes me feel a little better knowing this might could be fixed.
 
#8 ·
Dobbie Luv, it seems we got our dogs from the same breeder: Stonebrook Farms. My Axel is having the same problem. My vet said that it is probably because they were feeding them a high protein food as puppies. Said to switch to low protein food and the let him exercise. Where are you getting your dog's ears cropped? I am having Axel's cropped tomorrow up in Cleveland. Would love to get our dogs together sometime if you live nearby.
 
#9 ·
Oh, and I switched his food, but didn't see improvement...and it occurred to me today that his TREATS were high protein...so I'm going to give him a couple days without those treats and see if that improves, too. Don't forget to check your treats, too.
 
#10 ·
Hi axel's mom, yes Isis came from that litter. I have been looking everywhere for a solution to this problem and so far the only thing I have found is change to lower protein. I have done this she is now on Wellness complete health. (Purple bag). Today was her first day on it and so far she likes it. I have also been told to wrap her legs and give her vitamin C. So I am going to try that. It really scared me. I hope it gers better. We live in Carrollton and our vet here in town is going to do her ears when she is 12 weeks. I am really excited about getting that done. Please keep in touch with me and let me know how everything works out for you.
 
#13 ·
The breeders said all their pups have legs like this. I wish they had told me this before I got the dog when I asked about any known health issues... I think it could be due to their feeding their nursing mom and the puppies this extreme athlete food which has 32% protein.

My pup gets plenty of exercise. He has a GSD to harass all day, and I walk him down the street a few houses and to keep his natural heeling tendencies in tune.

I've switched him to a dog food with 20% protein, but realized today I was giving him treats with 65% protein! Oops! Now that I cut out that stupidity, let's see if we can see any difference in him. I'm taking him to the vet on Tuesday to see if we need to wrap his legs, too.
 
#34 ·
The breeders said all their pups have legs like this. I wish they had told me this before I got the dog when I asked about any known health issues... I think it could be due to their feeding their nursing mom and the puppies this extreme athlete food which has 32% protein.
To speak about breeding and possibly defending this breeder, I find the above statement, if true, unacceptable, especially coupled with information stating that they are breeding for "bigger, badder" dogs.

This is obviously a recurring problem that began in-eutero.
 
#15 ·
Some of the best advice I ever got about raising dogs (large dogs) was from a Great Dane breeder. Grow them SLOW. Too many people want the biggest bloodlines or dog possible. And the dogs pay the price from over feeding and/or too much protein. Not to say that's what the problem is with your pup or her mom. But its very possible.
Also that breeder needs some business ethics classes. Whatever the cause is bloodline or diet when the vets tells you their opinion, id dang sure tell the breeder that they need to fix it.
good luck and I recomend very little excercise until you see the vet ;)
 
#16 ·
The vet and I are working on how to slow down Axel's growth by changing his diet. Also said to limit activity as much as possible without being cruel, little running and jumping until the legs straighten out.

My vet actually consulted an osteo-something or another specialist up at UT. He said the above recommendations, but also said if that doesn't work, then they can try a corrective surgery to see if that helps.

I've told the breeder everything the vet has said, so whether or not he acts on it, at least I've told him. After Axel gets a little older and the story is complete, I'm thinking of seeing if the BBB or AKC might be interested in knowing. They're a licensed breeder in GA and registered with the AKC. I think he might have given dobbie luv a warning about the condition before purchase, but I didn't have that benefit, even after asking about medical conditions or issues.
 
#20 ·
Here is a pic I took yesterday. He is looking a little better today, but that's happened before and then it got bad again.

I'm having to get his ears re-posted AGAIN. They keep popping out of his ears at the bottom of the post. That sucks because the vet is 50 min. away and I got deadlines at work!!
 

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#21 ·
Axels mom, you need to get some serious help, I can't beleive you got your dogs ears cropped with his legs looking like that. I also can't beleive the vet croping the ears didn't mention how bad his legs looked. The breeder is to blame, I can't beleive you are not the least bit hysterical about this whole situation. You bought a dog who obviously has genetic defects, and are content with waiting it out too possibly make a complaint with the BBB. YOu obviously have much to learn and hopefully you will stick around, especially for the sake of that poor dog. In your other post you seem to stand up for this breeder, saying they are responsive to calls ect.. Have they been that way since you have mentioned his condition. Do some searches on a dog names Tyson, he had a severe case of knuckling over, and probably one of the sadest stories I have ever seen. I'm not upset with you, not even the fact you purchased from a Bad Breeder, not even when you take up for this breeders bad practices, I am upset that the dog had to be brought into this world with these things stacked against him. Hopefully some others with more medical experience with the issue will chime in, though they are probably intentionally not here. Good Luck with your puppy and I hope it does get better.
 
#24 ·
Wow. You have grossly underestimated me. However, I do appreciate that you express goodwill towards Axel. He deserves every ounce of it.

I got his ears cropped because he is a beautiful dog despite what's going on with his legs, and I plan on having Axel for many years, and cropped ears are beautiful on dobes. Sorry that some people don't agree I should be acknowledging that he has a future still. I checked with TWO vets before proceeding with the cropping because I was worried about the legs' condition. They both said they thought it would be okay. The vet who cropped the ears mentioned the legs and wanted a full story on them before he cropped the ears.

Yes, the breeder is to blame for continuing to breed knowing that some of his puppies go through this. I can't stop him from doing what he's going to do. It was too late by the time I found out. I could return the dog and get my money back, but honestly, I think Axel is worth the fight. I've not been afraid to mention the breeder's name on here, which is a very popular forum for the breed, and I know that will go a long way for their reputation. I'm also not going to go off on a rant about them. I don't think that will do Axel any good. I think making the BBB and AKC aware of what's going on is my best course of action right now. I'm waiting it out to file a report because I believe a complete story is a more powerful story. That seems perfectly reasonable to me.

You criticize me for being collected with how I write my posts (because that's all you know about me), and not hysterical. Seriously? Just because I don't post all my emotions online for everyone to read, doesn't mean I don't have them.

I've already admitted I have a lot to learn, and I do. That's why I consult professionals with the health of my dog. I'm doing everything my vet has recommended. I'm doing everything the specialist has recommended. I came online for another resource, and I've actually learned some things from y'all, too, that the vets later confirmed. After inappropriately aggressive posts on this thread, I honestly don't know if this crowd is one that I find uplifting enough to be worth my time. I'll see. I may simply become a reader for information and just back down on the posting so as to not incur undeserved wrath.

Oh, and I don't think Axel is a "poor dog". I think he is a great dog, and I'm blessed to have him in my life, and I hope to be the same for him.

I find it good practice for keeping my cool to say something nice about someone that I'm really upset with. I see you tried to do the same by saying you're not mad at me but you're just upset at the situation. Well, I'm upset with the situation, too. But I'm trying to be productive with my posts and ask for resolutions rather than just posting rants. (Obviously except for this one post because I don't know why. I guess I just find it offensive when someone accuses me of not taking care of my dog.) And yes, the breeder is still very responsive with me even after all this.

I glanced at Tyson's story. Yes, it is unfortunate what he is going through, or went through. It looks like he is with a responsible owner who is doing their best to provide a good life for Tyson, though. I hope to do the same for Axel.

I would really appreciate it if others with more experience with the issue would present themselves or PM me. I'm open-minded, and I've discussed everything I've learned so far on this forum with my vet, and then we made decisions together on how to proceed.

Thank you for your concern about Axel. I understand sometimes people just need to get things off their chest. That's okay. Hopefully if you read this response you will feel better about Axel's environment or situation.

I've already seen some improvement in Axel's legs. My vet calls me regularly checking in and he's been in touch several times with a specialist, too. I have high hopes for Axel, and I expect to be blessed with him in my life for many years, and this will just be a distant memory one day. And so as to not worry anyone, I'll tell you that Axel will be neutered when he's old enough to prevent the possibility of spreading this condition unnecessarily.

I hope that you have a blessed and uplifting day unlike mine yesterday when I was crying because of everything that Axel is going through.
 
#26 · (Edited)
Thank you for seeking the care of (multiple) veterinarians in regards to his legs. While the photos do make it appear as if more is wrong than just knuckling over, hopefully the vets will guide you in the right direction. If you haven't talked to (personally) or taken him to see an orthopedic specialiast, I would certainly consider it. If the condition doesn't improve tremendously, surgical measures may be required to try to fix the issue.

Best of luck to Axel. Please do not hesitate to spread the word about this "breeder." Hopefully it will spare others some of the anxiety and heartbreak that you have had to deal with thus far.

Also, I know you have mentioned wrapping, but you may discuss wrapping AND potentially splinting his legs with your vet. Perhaps print out the following page to see what your vet or vets thing about the idea.

http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/knuckling_over.htm
 
#28 ·
Thank you for seeking the care of (multiple) veterinarians in regards to his legs. While the photos do make it appear as if more is wrong than just knuckling over, hopefully the vets will guide you in the right direction. If you haven't talked to (personally) or taken him to see an orthopedic specialiast, I would certainly consider it. If the condition doesn't improve tremendously, surgical measures may be required to try to fix the issue.

Best of luck to Axel. Please do not hesitate to spread the word about this "breeder." Hopefully it will spare others some of the anxiety and heartbreak that you have had to deal with thus far.

Also, I know you have mentioned wrapping, but you may discuss wrapping AND potentially splinting his legs with your vet. Perhaps print out the following page to see what your vet or vets thing about the idea.

Knuckling Over and HOD - Developmental Orthopedic Disease | GREATDANELADY.COM
The specialist that the vet has been consulting is an orthopedic specialist at the University of Tennessee. We're following his advice at the moment and he advised that corrective surgery is a possibility if the new diet and limited activity don't do the trick. I'm prepared to go that route if required, but I really really hope Axel doesn't have to go through that.

I personally know of two other dogs that looked as bad as Axel and came out of it without needing surgery, so I have my fingers crossed. (I didn't learn of them until I started posting about it on facebook, and friends commented with experience. I know the dogs now, but didn't know them when they were going through this. Both dogs look great now.)

I've actually talked about the Great Dane Lady with my vet already and what she has reported about the condition.

Thank you for your helpful comments.
 
#27 ·
You know, the safest thing for me to do would be to just keep quiet about this. However, I think this thread is an example of one of the most dangerous aspects of this Forum. We have a number of novice and inexperienced people that are speculating about this condition or parroting what they have heard others say, but have no experience with the condition. They are crucifying the breeder for not warning the buyer of this condition when there may not have been any way for the breeder to have predicted this condition. The breeder of this puppy may be a bad breeder, I do not know, but if he is, it is not necessarily because he sold a puppy that exhibits this condition. I have had first hand experience with this problem myself on rare occasions.

I had my first litter in 1976. Over the years, I have had 3 or 4 litters that have exhibited this condition. The others did not even though they were raised and fed in a similar manner. All of them got over it with no residual issues. There was not any indication of predicting it until it happened and all got over it within a few days to a week or two. The only common denominator was that it happend around the time of ear cropping. It also does not appear to be genetic as it happened in one litter where I owned both of the parents, but neither of the parents had shown this condition. On another occasion I had a male puppy that I bred that had the worst case of this that I have had. He grew up to have beautiful feet, legs, and movement. He finished his champioship easily and did not ever produce it in any of his puppies that I am aware of.

It is dangerous and unfair to both the puppy owner and breeder to make such uninformed charges. There are also many veterinarians that have not seen this condition either and are just grasping at straws for a solution. So, please, if you cannot add any useful knowledgeable or help to the OP, don't add to their anxiety and make wild charges such as the breeder being unethical. You just may not know what you are talking about.
 
#29 ·
Thank you, KansaDobe! This is one reason why I've refrained from ranting about the breeder, and why I'm wanting a complete story before I take any action. More often than not I'm hearing that most dogs will eventually straighten up and be perfectly healthy down the road. I'm just worried since Axel's seems to be presenting more severely than his littermate that he may end up being an exception to this rule. This is why I'm keeping in close contact with the vet, who in turn is keeping in touch with the orthopedic specialist.
 
#30 ·
Axels mom please do not take the criticism on this forum to heart. I truly believe you are making all the right decisions. Some people would have just given up but not you. You still have hope for axel. It is neither one of our fault for the situations we are in. Going through what we are going through takes alot of courage and strength. I to am going to get Isis ears done in a couple of weeks and I am so excited. Two very helpful people on this forum suggested wellness dog food and vitamin C. I did both and Isis is looking much better. She didnt get as bad as Axel but maybe you could talk to your vet about trying both of those. I commend you for being very strong and seeking knowledge on this situation. That is why I started this forum for people in my situation to get some help. As far as it being genetic, im not sure if it is. It could be genetic or maybe its the high protein making them grow to fast. I was not aware of knuckling over until i came to this site. All the breeder told me was their legs could start bowing but its nothing serious and just to give them calcium. I really enjoy hearing from you and others on this forum. It gives hope for the situation and comfort to know im not alone.
 
#31 ·
Thanks, Dobbie Luv. I know I'm doing right by Axel, but it still stressful to watch him go through it. I'm putting Axel on the food recommended by the orthopedic specialist starting today. I had been letting Axel play maybe more than he should have, but I'm fixing that, too. It's hard to keep his activity down because he's such a jovial dog. Maybe I should have named him Jovial instead! :)

As soon as Isis and Axel are able to play again, we need to set up a playdate for our pups!
 
#32 ·
Agreed that some of the feedback in this thread is unnecessarily harsh. You are clearly trying to go about this in the right way. Lots of times willfully ignorant people come on here for advice and then are defensive and rude and argumentative and they deserve the harsh responses they get. I don't see where you did anything to provoke some of the righteous d-baggary happening in this thread. Best of luck to your pup.
 
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