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Old 08-15-2011, 11:45 AM   #1 (permalink)
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origen 4 cups a days to much ?

i bought origen for puppy and they said 65-85 lb 3-9 month it should be 3 3/4 to 4 1/2 but i think that 4 cups a days it a little to much what do you thing should i give her 4 cups or 3 cups a days ? it got alot of proteine 38% and it good food.
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Old 08-15-2011, 12:00 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I wouldn't feed 38% protein to a puppy but that's a personal preference. I'm just not comfortable with it for a larger breed pup and what we don't know for certain about Pano. It works okay for some people though I think.

3-4 cups per day isn't a lot of food for a growing puppy, although I would assume it depends on the individual pup. One of my adult females eats around 4 cups per day of Acana (give or take depending on that day's activity) plus cottage cheese, pumpkin, and shredded chicken breast (she has a good metabolism and burns thru calories easily). She ate around 5-6 cups per day as a growing puppy but I made sure she was only getting around 25% protein in her kibble.
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Old 08-15-2011, 01:22 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I wouldn't feed 38% protein to a puppy but that's a personal preference. I'm just not comfortable with it for a larger breed pup and what we don't know for certain about Pano. It works okay for some people though I think.

3-4 cups per day isn't a lot of food for a growing puppy, although I would assume it depends on the individual pup. One of my adult females eats around 4 cups per day of Acana (give or take depending on that day's activity) plus cottage cheese, pumpkin, and shredded chicken breast (she has a good metabolism and burns thru calories easily). She ate around 5-6 cups per day as a growing puppy but I made sure she was only getting around 25% protein in her kibble.
why would you not feed your dog with 38% proteine the place that i went to buy it she was giving real meat to all his dog meat that she buy and alot of people do that and it 100% proteine and it realy good for them. proteine for active dog cant be bad.
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Old 08-15-2011, 01:50 PM   #4 (permalink)
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There are studies that show puppies actually need more protein during their growth period and in fact, protein deficiency is more dangerous. The old myth that high protein diets cause kidney damage in healthy dogs has finally been addressed and one must consider the "quality" of the protein, not the "quantity". When feeding a puppy, the caloric density of the food is of great significance as it relates to skeletal growth. The first article by a nutritionist explains these issues quite well specifically relating to pups. As you probably know, there is a lot of information out there, so here is just a couple of my favorites. But, I have to say, the truth about our vets is that generally the only knowledge of nutrition is received from the sales reps. and they do sadly benefit from sales in their practice. I learned the hard way, that although the vet may truly appear to love animals, it doesn't always mean they can advise what may be the best for them. Second opinions are wonderful things!

http://www.hilarywatson.com/puppies.pdf
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Old 08-15-2011, 02:18 PM   #5 (permalink)
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the food is fine for your pup...how much to feed depends on the dog in question, activity, and metabolism. personally, go with the smaller amount and increase over time if need be. Just monitor the look and stools of your pup.
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Old 08-15-2011, 02:26 PM   #6 (permalink)
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why would you not feed your dog with 38% proteine the place that i went to buy it she was giving real meat to all his dog meat that she buy and alot of people do that and it 100% proteine and it realy good for them. proteine for active dog cant be bad.
brw1982 mentioned she wouldn't because of a possible risk of pano. I'm with her on that one. We don't know enough about pano yet for ME to be comfortable feeding that high of a protein amount to a pano prone breed.
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Old 08-15-2011, 02:26 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I fed Shanoa Orijen throughout her puppyhood. I don't remember how much I fed, but it was roughly following the guidelines on the bag. I'm personally very comfortable with the protein levels, but everyone has their own feeling on that. I talked it over with my vet and we were both on the same page. For us, Orijen was the only puppy food that Shanoa could tolerate. I did use the large breed formula just to make sure the calcium ratios were correct.
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Old 08-15-2011, 02:55 PM   #8 (permalink)
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why would you not feed your dog with 38% proteine the place that i went to buy it she was giving real meat to all his dog meat that she buy and alot of people do that and it 100% proteine and it realy good for them. proteine for active dog cant be bad.
I would and do feed both my dogs food with higher protein levels. I said I wouldn't feed a puppy a food with protein level over about 25%. I also said it's just my personal feelings on it regarding what we don't know about Pano.

I never said protein was bad. I never said no one should feed higher levels of protein & I never mentioned anything about feeding raw. It depends on what you're comfortable with and the individual pup. I'm not sure how that was unclear in my first response.
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Old 08-15-2011, 04:28 PM   #9 (permalink)
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If you aren't comfortable with the protein levels but like the ingredients you can always feed Acana, which is made by the same company (Champion Pet Foods). I know a lot of people here on DT feed Acana.
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Old 08-15-2011, 04:34 PM   #10 (permalink)
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If you aren't comfortable with the protein levels but like the ingredients you can always feed Acana, which is made by the same company (Champion Pet Foods). I know a lot of people here on DT feed Acana.
Acana's grain free isn't much lower than the Orijen Puppy. Acana is 33% and Orijen puppy is 38%. But it is another option. When I feed kibble, that's what I feed.
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Old 08-15-2011, 04:43 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Acana's grain free isn't much lower than the Orijen Puppy. Acana is 33% and Orijen puppy is 38%. But it is another option. When I feed kibble, that's what I feed.
Oh, I didn't realize Acana wasn't much lower. Scratch that suggestion!
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Old 08-15-2011, 06:11 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Here is my issue with what is being said. First off, my pup is on Orijen, and is doing amazing, and has been since day one with the breeder. Pano is disease that causes abnormal growth to the bones...this is usually due to high calcium levels. The levels at which a pup would need to develop pano from over protein, if even possible, would have to be far beyond the Orijen level. Also, 4 cups of Orijen is right on. You feed less to your pup b/c everthing is all narturl, fresh, no fillers, so what ever your pup is getting is a much better quality, with a lower quanitiy. My 7 month old is at 5.5 cups, and is solid, not thin at all.
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Old 08-16-2011, 03:24 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Pano is caused by overfeeding/too many calories as the main factor. Parker got pano while being fed Canidae, protein level of only 24/26 per cent, before the formula change about 3 1/2 years ago. I was feeding him 6 cups a day at 5 months of age, and that was too much. Pano does not cause any permanent damage to the bones of the puppy. Pano is mainly an inflamation of the long bones of the legs and causes sensitivities and sometimes pain. The puppy will often be lame in one leg one day and another leg the next day or so. Parkers case was quite painful but most cases are not. He eventually outgrew it. I was advised on this board to give vit c, feed a single source protein food and to not overfeed. Those, time and a nasaid eventually got him over it. Too many calories/overfeeding causes growth spurts which in turn causes pano. Luvbirds boy, Petey, got pano while being fed raw and she was overfeeding raw at the time. You can give pano to a pup feeding any food if you overfeed. I believe Monk meant HOD.
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Old 08-16-2011, 04:27 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roxy12 View Post
why would you not feed your dog with 38% proteine the place that i went to buy it she was giving real meat to all his dog meat that she buy and alot of people do that and it 100% proteine and it realy good for them. proteine for active dog cant be bad.
Actually the raw food diet is not 100% protein. Raw food is much lower protein than a lot of kibbles and can be used as an all life stage diet. For instance, different cuts of meats have different protein percentages.

Beef is between 15-25% protein (depending on part), chicken is between 18-20%, pork 21%.

Compare these numbers to average kibble and you'll see that it is actually lower. The difference is in the quality of the protein. This allows healthy stable growth.
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Old 08-16-2011, 09:01 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Actually the raw food diet is not 100% protein. Raw food is much lower protein than a lot of kibbles and can be used as an all life stage diet. For instance, different cuts of meats have different protein percentages.

Beef is between 15-25% protein (depending on part), chicken is between 18-20%, pork 21%.

Compare these numbers to average kibble and you'll see that it is actually lower. The difference is in the quality of the protein. This allows healthy stable growth.
A difference is the quality of protein. THE difference is in the percentage of water. Beef is dinner and a drink in every tasty bite LOL! If you take 1/4 cup kibble and add 3/4 cup of water, does the protein in the kibble reduce from 28% to 7%? To compare one food to another, the water percentage must be removed... what is left can then be meaningfully compared.

Dry Matter Basis… the Only Fair Way to Compare Dog Foods. I posted this a couple of days ago, too. Toward the end, it shows you how to compare the nutrient content of mostly-water canned food to little-water kibble. This is the same way you would compare mostly-water meat to little-water kibble.

Even grainless kibbles contain a fair percentage of carbohydrate. When you consider that the sum of the parts must equal 100%... protein + fat + carbohydrate = 100% of the kibble... protein + fat = 100% of the beef... that beef has no carbohydrate means that the amount of protein/fat MUST be higher than what is in kibble.
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Old 08-16-2011, 01:56 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Pano is caused by overfeeding/too many calories as the main factor. Parker got pano while being fed Canidae, protein level of only 24/26 per cent, before the formula change about 3 1/2 years ago. I was feeding him 6 cups a day at 5 months of age, and that was too much. Pano does not cause any permanent damage to the bones of the puppy. Pano is mainly an inflamation of the long bones of the legs and causes sensitivities and sometimes pain. The puppy will often be lame in one leg one day and another leg the next day or so. Parkers case was quite painful but most cases are not. He eventually outgrew it. I was advised on this board to give vit c, feed a single source protein food and to not overfeed. Those, time and a nasaid eventually got him over it. Too many calories/overfeeding causes growth spurts which in turn causes pano. Luvbirds boy, Petey, got pano while being fed raw and she was overfeeding raw at the time. You can give pano to a pup feeding any food if you overfeed. I believe Monk meant HOD.
I didnt mean HOD, i ment Pano...but didnt put it as clearly as u. Basically, what causes Pano is still unknown, but high calcium levels will have a larger effect on it than higher levels of protein, as Pano is an issue with quick growing bones. They still belive Pano is heavily tied to genetics, or even virus strands..that we, the population, just dont understand enough. As u said above..its not permenant, or will it have long term effects on the pup, other than extreme pain during the process.
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Old 08-16-2011, 07:46 PM   #17 (permalink)
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why would you not feed your dog with 38% proteine the place that i went to buy it she was giving real meat to all his dog meat that she buy and alot of people do that and it 100% proteine and it realy good for them. proteine for active dog cant be bad.
Not sure where you've been getting your facts, but there is no meat that is 100% protein. Most meats like chicken, turkey, beef, etc. have anywhere from 15%-30% protein, same as most beans, soy and tofu. 38% is pretty high for a puppy, but that's just my opinion.
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Old 08-16-2011, 08:20 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sam Erin View Post
Not sure where you've been getting your facts, but there is no meat that is 100% protein. Most meats like chicken, turkey, beef, etc. have anywhere from 15%-30% protein, same as most beans, soy and tofu. 38% is pretty high for a puppy, but that's just my opinion.
On a dry matter basis, rabbit is probably the most protein-dense meat... roughly 80% of the calories from protein and 20% from fat. Again, you cannot compare food with high moisture content (meat) to foods with low moisture content (kibble)... you must make the moisture content equivalent by subtracting it from the items you are comparing, and then compare. Compared to a diet of meat/bones/organs, any and all kibbles are lower protein.
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