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Old 08-25-2009, 04:32 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Unhappy 6 week old pup...weight, food, etc.

Due to the conditions my pup was living in, I took him home at 5 1/2 weeks instead of waiting until 8 weeks.
[I do not believe he would have survived until the obligatory 8 week official release]

He had to be rushed to the vet ER Friday night due to explosive watery diarrhea, lack of appetite and refusal to drink water.

He came up clean for all parasites, [*that* shocked me] save "one small coccidia" [the vet's words] and was negative for Parvo although the test strip showed 2 *barely* discernible VERY pale "dots" that he attributed to a "false positive" from the puppy shot he'd just received that Wednesday.

He was given sub-q fluids, Amoxicillin and some kind of tummy medicine for the diarrhea.

He is eating his "bland diet" ravenously and I've started to re-add his puppy food to it, which he will also eat dry.

He *was* drinking a lot all the time and now just drinks occasionally.
[possibly "needed" the water before and now the rice/chicken contains enough moisture that's he's not always thirsty?]

The diagnosis was ~either~ Coronavirus *or* a reaction to the milk the "breeders" said to put on his food the first night, which he gorged himself on.

He seems to be getting better and his stools went from "chocolate pudding" to "firm, formed chocolate pudding" fairly quickly.

He is active and a little hellion but his gait seems "off" to me.

At 6 weeks, should he be still be sort of puppy-wobbly?
He can run and pounce but sometimes wavers or stumbles, especially when sleepy or having just awakened.

I have never had *any* pup this young before and have no idea how they should be moving at a given age.

Is 8.75 pounds a "normal weight" for 6 week + 2days old Doberman, considering the dehydration factor of Friday's ordeal?
He weighed 6.5 last Wednesday, prior to that.

The "breeders" [yes, there's a barely suppressed snarl of disgust behind that word] have me feeding him Purina One puppy chow.
I *want* to start him on Canine Caviar Chicken & Millet instead, ASAP.

Also, are they fairly flexible and sturdy?

My Portuguese Podengo Medio "dominates" with him by basically flattening him to the floor, sometimes.
[she mothers him and is teaching him bite inhibition, etc, since his own mother was taken from him at 4 weeks of age to "wean him"]

She cleans and tends to him which is amazing since he's decided her long, elegantly plumed tail was put on this earth solely for his amusement.


Sorry this is so long and rambling but I'm worried sick for him and not sleeping much due to my compulsion to watch over him every second of every day.

[crate training is a bust, so far....he SCREAMS and claws like he's suffering the tortures of the damned and I don't want to re-stress him back into the diarrhea phase]

I have fed him in it, put his water in it and a bunch of toys and he'll go in but as soon as that door closes.....the conniptions begin.


Basically, I just need advice and reassurance.

The youngest pup I ever had was my childhood Poodle who was 8 weeks old and already independent and of all the Dobermans I've ever had, the youngest was 10 months old.

This "puppy paranoia" is new to me................
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Old 08-25-2009, 04:48 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I hope you reported that to the authorities so they can go and get all the dogs.

So the BYB just gave you the pup?

When Kenya had her litter the pups were running all over the place at 6 weeks. Nice little butterballs.
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Old 08-25-2009, 04:54 PM   #3 (permalink)
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i bought my pup when he was 5 1/2 weeks also....but i didnt get him until 7 1/2 .....he still wobbled a little bit, but not alot....and if i recall correct he weighed 10lb ish at 6 weeks
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:02 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Seems small to me, the wobbly-ness is normal. When Obie was 10 weeks he was 28 pounds, but I think he was a little above the average.

If the stools have firmed up a bit then continue what you are doing, sounds like you are doing all you can for now. Once they are normal poops then I would start to switch the diet.
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:04 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I did pay for him but I won't get his papers until the "official release date" comes around so I can't do anything right *now*.

In my state, the animal control people will do *nothing* unless the dogs do not have adequate shelter, food, etc which they technically do have, but it's nothing anywhere near what *I* consider "appropriate" or "responsible".

As far as the handing over, it was done with no signed agreements or anything like that.
Just "You wanna take him now?" with the caveat that I had to vax him before I took him home, which I did.

Legally, I knew it was "wrong" for him to do that but there was no way in hell I was going to let my dog stay there given the chance to get him *out*.

I *seriously* doubt they'd have taken him to a vet at 3am and dropped hundreds of dollars on him, just to save him when the diarrhea started.
[*if* they even noticed it before it was too late]

They screwed around for 3 days when I mentioned that water should *not* be coming out of his nose when he was 3 weeks old.
The following Monday, they claimed they took the pups to the vet and he'd said "it was nothing but keep an eye on them".

Is it possible for good care to "make up" for what he didn't receive previously or is he "damaged" beyond repair??
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:13 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Seems small to me, the wobbly-ness is normal. When Obie was 10 weeks he was 28 pounds, but I think he was a little above the average.

If the stools have firmed up a bit then continue what you are doing, sounds like you are doing all you can for now. Once they are normal poops then I would start to switch the diet.
The poor bitch had 11 pups, of which 10 survived.
Her usual dog food was some kind of "multi-colored" stuff which is usually not a sign of good quality.

It is still breaking my heart that I can not bring home the "runt" female who is, despite her tiny size, beautifully elegant.

The bitch was not an especially great mother and I don't think they got to suckle as much as they needed.
[and no efforts were made to divvy up or supplement feedings so the pups all got their fill]

The bitch's half sister had only 8 pups who are twice the size of this litter and she stood up to let them all suckle whereas mine's mom laid down flat to refuse them.

[yes...18 pups all born within one day of each other...luckily, the *third* bitch had only a false pregnancy]
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:18 PM   #7 (permalink)
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How sad that animal control won't do anything.

In regards to full recovery I guess it would depend what damage the virus did allready. Best thing is to discuss this with your vet.

If the vet clears it you can put some goatsmilk in the pups kibble for some extra calories.

Keep us updated how the pup is doing.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Salamander View Post
I did pay for him but I won't get his papers until the "official release date" comes around so I can't do anything right *now*.

In my state, the animal control people will do *nothing* unless the dogs do not have adequate shelter, food, etc which they technically do have, but it's nothing anywhere near what *I* consider "appropriate" or "responsible".

As far as the handing over, it was done with no signed agreements or anything like that.
Just "You wanna take him now?" with the caveat that I had to vax him before I took him home, which I did.

Legally, I knew it was "wrong" for him to do that but there was no way in hell I was going to let my dog stay there given the chance to get him *out*.

I *seriously* doubt they'd have taken him to a vet at 3am and dropped hundreds of dollars on him, just to save him when the diarrhea started.
[*if* they even noticed it before it was too late]

They screwed around for 3 days when I mentioned that water should *not* be coming out of his nose when he was 3 weeks old.
The following Monday, they claimed they took the pups to the vet and he'd said "it was nothing but keep an eye on them".

Is it possible for good care to "make up" for what he didn't receive previously or is he "damaged" beyond repair??
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:22 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salamander View Post
I did pay for him but I won't get his papers until the "official release date" comes around so I can't do anything right *now*.

In my state, the animal control people will do *nothing* unless the dogs do not have adequate shelter, food, etc which they technically do have, but it's nothing anywhere near what *I* consider "appropriate" or "responsible".

As far as the handing over, it was done with no signed agreements or anything like that.
Just "You wanna take him now?" with the caveat that I had to vax him before I took him home, which I did.

Legally, I knew it was "wrong" for him to do that but there was no way in hell I was going to let my dog stay there given the chance to get him *out*.

I *seriously* doubt they'd have taken him to a vet at 3am and dropped hundreds of dollars on him, just to save him when the diarrhea started.
[*if* they even noticed it before it was too late]

They screwed around for 3 days when I mentioned that water should *not* be coming out of his nose when he was 3 weeks old.
The following Monday, they claimed they took the pups to the vet and he'd said "it was nothing but keep an eye on them".

Is it possible for good care to "make up" for what he didn't receive previously or is he "damaged" beyond repair??
I am only going to address the last question here, and no he is not damaged beyond repair. A good family, good diet, good training and good home will make for a good dog, he may be a bit behind for awhile but with all the above should catch up. Since however he comes from a BYB, it's hard to tell what long term health problems may arise. For now, take the best care of him you can and love him forever.( P.S.--- don't support BYB'S in the future.)
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:30 PM   #9 (permalink)
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The vet said it was possibly an intestinal coronavirus ["stomach flu"] since everything else had been ruled out and that it wasn't a *huge* deal since he was given sub-q fluids and medicine.

The "treatment" was to be just palliative until it passed, hence the bland diet, etc.

He said NO milk ever since the diarrhea got progressively worse after I gave him some the first night he was here and that alone could've triggered it.

All milk has lactose, except for dog milk which has very little.

[I considered Lactaid but don't want to push his luck]....

As an example, our local animal control allows hundreds of flea infested, totally unvaccinated, un-neutered feral cats to roam the city park because of pressure put on them by some 'animal rights" people.

I wouldn't expect much help from them.
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:51 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I am only going to address the last question here, and no he is not damaged beyond repair. A good family, good diet, good training and good home will make for a good dog, he may be a bit behind for awhile but with all the above should catch up. Since however he comes from a BYB, it's hard to tell what long term health problems may arise. For now, take the best care of him you can and love him forever.( P.S.--- don't support BYB'S in the future.)
Thank you SO much for that glimmer of hope!

Until it was too late, I had no idea they were BYBs.

Initially, it was one dog who was supposed to be pregnant.

Later, I learned of the others and by then, he'd already been born, I'd fallen in love and it was too late.

And no, I will not do this again.

[FWIW, I have done extensive pedigree research on the sire and dam and the lines seem to be remarkably low-ratio regarding horrible genetic tendencies]

Not to get all mushy here, but this little guy is the One who will hopefully fill the huge hole in my heart left by the first One who passed away on my 23rd birthday, 25 years ago, July 30, 1984.

Some dogs, you'll always remember; other dogs, you can never forget.

My brilliant, scary-smart Tito was of the latter type.

I have never "gotten over" his death and none of my other Dobermans had his amazing "spark".

That is the sole reason I chose this pup....his lines are so close to Tito's that it freaks me out a little.....
[blood will tell!]

The second day he was here, he had already latched onto me like a worshipful leech and when he heard a noise out in the kitchen, he leaped up, assumed the most magnificent Defender Puppy! position and from his tiny, hackle-risen body, came the most amazingly deep, ferocious growl and bark!

The itty-bitty little runt was "guarding" mom!

How can you not fall in love with such a bold and devoted spirit, considering *I* am the big one who really has to defend *him* from harm, right now?....
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:33 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Best of luck with him.. It's a shame you're across the bridge, I'm in the Ocean City area of Maryland.
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:26 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Thank you SO much for that glimmer of hope!

Until it was too late, I had no idea they were BYBs.

Initially, it was one dog who was supposed to be pregnant.

Later, I learned of the others and by then, he'd already been born, I'd fallen in love and it was too late.

And no, I will not do this again.

[FWIW, I have done extensive pedigree research on the sire and dam and the lines seem to be remarkably low-ratio regarding horrible genetic tendencies]

Not to get all mushy here, but this little guy is the One who will hopefully fill the huge hole in my heart left by the first One who passed away on my 23rd birthday, 25 years ago, July 30, 1984.

Some dogs, you'll always remember; other dogs, you can never forget.

My brilliant, scary-smart Tito was of the latter type.

I have never "gotten over" his death and none of my other Dobermans had his amazing "spark".

That is the sole reason I chose this pup....his lines are so close to Tito's that it freaks me out a little.....
[blood will tell!]

The second day he was here, he had already latched onto me like a worshipful leech and when he heard a noise out in the kitchen, he leaped up, assumed the most magnificent Defender Puppy! position and from his tiny, hackle-risen body, came the most amazingly deep, ferocious growl and bark!

The itty-bitty little runt was "guarding" mom!

How can you not fall in love with such a bold and devoted spirit, considering *I* am the big one who really has to defend *him* from harm, right now?....
I hope you are both exactly what the other one needs. Sure sounds like it.
I was in your shoes about 13 years ago when I brought home a 6 week old pup with ringworm, had suffered hypothermia, and had a pancreatic abnormality. That was my BYB experience. But that little dobie turned out to be the baby of our hearts and was with us 12 years. She had a bad start but became a strong and loving doberman until I lost her a year ago and still miss her every single day. So I wish you all the happiness with your little guy that I have found with my Kali, and all the healing powers a puppy brings as well.
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:21 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I wish you and little Odin only the best of luck. It sounds like you've realized that your "breeder" is of the BYB variety, and you can only love each other and go forward from here.

I have a feeling that with you at the helm, he's on the road to a good recovery.
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:29 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Best of luck with him.. It's a shame you're across the bridge, I'm in the Ocean City area of Maryland.
You're welcome to come visit us all in beautiful, wild western Maryland!...
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:41 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Hi Salmander.
Welcome to Doberman Talk! I wish you the best with your new baby, Odin--Please keep reading here and you'll be just fine, you have a ton of information and knowledge here to draw on.

When he's all better your next mission is to help us prevent others from making the choice you did ( please do not read judgement in this statement, if you do please PM me) ... I don't mean to be preachy or mean at all. So I just ask you to keep stay active on the board and when you see people who're thinking of purchasing from the wrong source... please speak up, tell them your story.

Your next task is to post pictures.... I may have missed them if you posted somewhere else, in that case I'm sorry..... I wish you lots of luck with Odin!!!

--
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:42 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I hope you are both exactly what the other one needs. Sure sounds like it.
I was in your shoes about 13 years ago when I brought home a 6 week old pup with ringworm, had suffered hypothermia, and had a pancreatic abnormality. That was my BYB experience. But that little dobie turned out to be the baby of our hearts and was with us 12 years. She had a bad start but became a strong and loving doberman until I lost her a year ago and still miss her every single day. So I wish you all the happiness with your little guy that I have found with my Kali, and all the healing powers a puppy brings as well.
Thank you so much!

Right now, I need him as much as he needs me.
[maybe more]

Your story gives me hope that I will be as blessed as you were.

Too many very unlikely coincidences happened that brought the two of us together for it to not be Fate.

[such as finally finding, after almost 20 years of searching this big old farm house, 2 photos of my beloved Tito the very same day I met the mother of Odin. I hadn't seen his beautiful face *once* in all that time. Somewhere up in that attic, the other *hundreds* of pix are probably there, too but now I don't feel as desperately driven to find them]
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:50 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Hi Salmander.
Welcome to Doberman Talk! I wish you the best with your new baby, Odin--Please keep reading here and you'll be just fine, you have a ton of information and knowledge here to draw on.

When he's all better your next mission is to help us prevent others from making the choice you did ( please do not read judgement in this statement, if you do please PM me) ... I don't mean to be preachy or mean at all. So I just ask you to keep stay active on the board and when you see people who're thinking of purchasing from the wrong source... please speak up, tell them your story.

Your next task is to post pictures.... I may have missed them if you posted somewhere else, in that case I'm sorry..... I wish you lots of luck with Odin!!!

--
charlotte
No "judgment" taken.
I am as against this kind of thing as you are but sometimes our foolish hearts run right over our even more foolish brains.

My story is for everyone.

Feel free to refer people to me and I will tell them not only what I've already said, but even worse details about "BYBs" that will stop them in their tracks.

You can not imagine the crap I endured just to get this precious little boy away from there.

I have been busily reading and absorbing everything I can.

I want him to have the BEST life any Doberman ever had.

He's my One, now......

[there are some pix of him in my profile and here is his web page ODIN ]
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Old 08-25-2009, 10:06 PM   #18 (permalink)
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No "judgment" taken.
I am as against this kind of thing as you are but sometimes our foolish hearts run right over our even more foolish brains.

My story is for everyone.

Feel free to refer people to me and I will tell them not only what I've already said, but even worse details about "BYBs" that will stop them in their tracks.

You can not imagine the crap I endured just to get this precious little boy away from there.

I have been busily reading and absorbing everything I can.

I want him to have the BEST life any Doberman ever had.

He's my One, now......

[there are some pix of him in my profile and here is his web page ODIN ]

I'll take a closer look .. I actually love Ibizans ( next to Dobes of course ) ahem. Thanks
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Old 08-25-2009, 10:09 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I hope your pup gets well soon! I'm curious as to what area of western MD you're in...as I am also in MD and have never heard of a park with several feral cats...though I don't keep track of ALL parks. LOL.
If you'd like some recommendations on training facilities I happen to know quite a few all over MD...vets too, but it sounds like you have one. I'm a bit of a park freak too, so I have a bit info on those as well (not sure how long you've been in MD either).
You could call authorities though. There are MD state laws that require medical attention for dogs/puppies/cats etc. as well. At least you should notify authorities. Never hurts, and if they do something GREAT, if they don't then at least you know you tried.
If they are producing a certain number of puppies you can notify places like SPCA and HSUS to make sure they aren't a mill. Not saying they are, but at least someone gets out there and talks to owners (maybe scares them a bit) into being more responsible. Just trying to think of options.
For now, focus on his health Give him soft kisses for us!
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:07 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I'll take a closer look .. I actually love Ibizans ( next to Dobes of course ) ahem. Thanks
Ibizans made me realize how much I missed Dobermans....LOL!

They do not listen to you, you can never let them off leash and it is virtually impossible to "train" them to do anything they weren't already going to do any way!

I love my Ibizan kids but Lord, how I have missed having a dog that I don't have to transform my property into a maximum security facility for....


A large number of former Doberman people wind up with Ibizans.

We generally refer to that "gear switch" as "the day I lost my mind"......;-D
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:44 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I hope your pup gets well soon! I'm curious as to what area of western MD you're in...as I am also in MD and have never heard of a park with several feral cats...though I don't keep track of ALL parks. LOL.
If you'd like some recommendations on training facilities I happen to know quite a few all over MD...vets too, but it sounds like you have one. I'm a bit of a park freak too, so I have a bit info on those as well (not sure how long you've been in MD either).
You could call authorities though. There are MD state laws that require medical attention for dogs/puppies/cats etc. as well. At least you should notify authorities. Never hurts, and if they do something GREAT, if they don't then at least you know you tried.
If they are producing a certain number of puppies you can notify places like SPCA and HSUS to make sure they aren't a mill. Not saying they are, but at least someone gets out there and talks to owners (maybe scares them a bit) into being more responsible. Just trying to think of options.
For now, focus on his health Give him soft kisses for us!
It's Hagerstown City Park.
Some well-meaning but misguided woman comes over from WV! just to feed them.

I'm a ways west of there.
[Lord Baltimore referred to our area as "The Wasteland" and "The Wilderness"]...LOL!

We's awl hilllbillies out cheer..... so I was born, have lived and will die within the same square mile.....

[48 years, so far]

Since "Mr SCHMIDT" [a German guy who looked just and dressed just like Jaques Cousteau died], my favorite trainer is LeeRay Downs.

She was a very beautiful and kind woman who used to give public classes but 31 years have passed and now she does only private sessions.

After going through 2 classes with Mr SCHMIDT [you have to practically yell that with a thick German accent to get the joke] and paying very close attention I felt capable of doing my own training and have successfully obedience trained *many* rescue Dobermans, both for myself and others.

Tito, for example, could have given Hollywood dog stars a run for their money.
The dog was uncannily smart and had the most warped sense of humor I've ever seen in a dog.
We had "games" we played and he knew "the rules" of each game perfectly.
[some of which scared my mom pale because she thought the dog actually had me treed, intending to kill me]

He also believed he could become "invisible" if he dropped his front end, raised his back end and remained perfectly still.

I humored him by wandering around the yard, hand over my brow, walking right past him, calling "Tito? Where are you? Titoooooo! Come home!".

He'd hold this for 20 minutes or so, then his tail would wag and he'd literally explode from the crouch onto me, licking and squirming.

[bless his silly heart...he really thought he had me fooled]

People would see him do this and ask "WTH is your dog doing?!?" and I'd answer "Pay him no mind. He's invisible right now".

I wish I'd had the opportunity to do agility with him.
There was nothing he wouldn't jump over, crawl under, wiggle through or fetch; I only had to ask.

He was also a terrible clown.
The sit/swing became a speed event to him.
He had to swing faster than all the other dogs in class and he would sit in front of me, trembling in anticipation of the command and I never got the whole word out before he was airborne and pirouetting into the sit/heel position.

Our classes were in a parking lot in a strip mall and lots of people would stop to watch.

On final test day, during the long down, he started to sloooooowly commando crawl his way back to me.
[while completely still down]

10 agonizing minutes passed and closer and closer he came until finally, his chin was on my sneakers.
He looked up at me and wagged that little stub of his and I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

The onlookers actually cheered him....and for the first and only time that *I* ever saw , Mr SCHMIDT cracked a smile.

I thought sure we'd failed but he passed him.
He subtracted points for the crawl but gave him "bonus points" for his ingenuity because, although he'd broken the 'letter of the law", he'd kept the spirit of it by remaining flat on the ground......

*sigh*

How I still love and miss that once-in-lifetime, crazy dog.

[he could also "say" my name and several times barked what sounded exactly like NO!]
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:49 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I wish you and little Odin only the best of luck. It sounds like you've realized that your "breeder" is of the BYB variety, and you can only love each other and go forward from here.

I have a feeling that with you at the helm, he's on the road to a good recovery.
I will do, give, spend or sacrifice anything necessary to make his life a long, happy and wonderful one.

[oh crap....I'm already in love].....:biggrin55:
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Old 08-26-2009, 12:50 AM   #23 (permalink)
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My girlfriend a long time ago raised a litter of pups on straight Goats milk very fat little puppies.She later found she was suppose to use half water & half Goats milk it did not give them loose stools.
Leerberg.com they have a huge web site with all kinds of free information also have a recipe for a puppy suplement. They have allot of good reviews for it. Some of the Leerberg information is very good some I disagree with. Patches Mom
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Old 08-26-2009, 01:08 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Wal*Mart sells very good organic goat's milk.

I will pick some up and give it a try.

An Ibizan breeder friend of mine had Sonnenbergs and *all* her dogs drank the extra milk and never had a problem.

[and I love the stuff myself so it won't go to waste]......

Just my luck....I've got one Pygmy whether and one Pygmy doe.

No "free milk" from them.

[and where would I ever find a milking stool that short, any way?]...LOL
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Old 08-26-2009, 04:14 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Good luck with the little gaffer! I don't think he is too small-my bitch was only about 15ish lbs when I got her at 12 weeks, so I dont think 8 lbs at 6 weeks is too small! She is now ~75 lbs and about 26" at the shoulders (she is a BIG girl, makes her 'perfect' sized hosemate dobergirl look like a midget). I think a good idea for now is a good diet, goats milk is perfect. I had foster puppies here in April, and I soaked their high quality kibble in goats milk and they gobbled it up and turned into fat little piggies!

We need pics
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