dobes4us

Hello and welcome from Ohio. Megs has all I would have suggested....Thanks Megs!

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Sue & Crew
Chessie, Riggs and Kylee

Murreydobe

Well..kinda true, kinda not. It appears that bitches have a slightly lower rate of DCM. Yet there are far too many bitches lost to this disease. CAH (a liver disorder) is more common in bitches than it is in dogs, but there certainly are plenty of males to succomb to this disorder as well.

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CH. Birchrun Who's On First, aka Razzle
Foxfire N KO Simply Madness WAC, aka Connor

Primo

First I'd like to thank everyone that has posted since I last posted myself. The more information I can gather the better. As I said before I've been doing a ton of research and through that research have become a little weary of the male doberman. The pup that I really want from the litter is a male. I actually know the human parents pretty well and have grown to love the parent dogs. They are both 2 years and 2 months I believe. The male "Fish" is a month or so older than the female "Kitty". They are both healthy and free of any genetic issues. I'm not sure on their awards in the performance ring etc and honestly it doesn't really matter. I've known both parents since puppy hood and always joke about stealing the male "fish".

They both have great temperaments but Fish can definitely be other male aggressive. He's fine within the house, the human parents also have a male and female yorkie and Fish is 100% cool with Oliver the male yorkie. However they no longer go to the dog park because anytime someone has another intact male all hell breaks loose. Fish isn't a biter but he does pin dogs on the ground in a dominating fashion, so his socialization is restricted to the neighborhood dogs that came over for play dates and that is pretty much it. It's going to be their last litter so both Kitty and Fish will be fixed.

My pup male or female will also be fixed at or around 6 months to extend their lives and curtail any sort of behavioral problem. My issue is I don't want my doberman if I choose the male to be just "OK" with my family dogs. I'm not sure if the male/male aggression is worse in Dobermans than it is Amstaffs but we've never had an issue with our Amstaffs. It kind of sucks because I've grown rather attached to this male pup. They are 20 days old and I've probably been over 15 of the 20 days so I've been around the puppies quite a bit. If the male is going to prove a problem regardless of my socialization efforts then I may HAVE to get a female. I WILL be ALPHA so that won't be an issue, but I will be devastated if I get this male which I love and at 2 years old when he reaches full maturity he hates my family dogs which I adore.

I'm hoping to move back to PA (Currently in Ohio) in 6-12 months so it will be more than a once in a while play date. I'll likely see my parents a few times a week at that point. I also already live with my gf and have lived with her for 4 years now so that isn't an issue. The dog will hopefully have a equal bond with us both even though I've read they tend to bond strongly with one person. I'm going to try and prevent that from occurring.

The breeder is confident I'm going to be a good owner and says that it's entirely up to me which sex I choose. She doesn't feel I'll have a problem one way or the other. She knows my family dogs from when my parents have come to visit. Conan are male Amstaff is nearly hospital certified so he's very good and Diego is still really young. Our female is as docile as they come. I need someone to tell me not to worry about getting the male besides the breeder. Otherwise I'm going to get a female. If the male is going to be just "OK" it's not going to work for me. Thoughts? sorry for the novel. lol it's longer than I thought. (Sue me I'm long winded, I feel like I should issue cliff notes.)

MaryAndDobes

You mention that Diego is still very young, so it's entirely possible that there are going to be problems down the road between Conan and Diego. Male to male aggression is common in a number of breeds, and terriers are certainly way up there on that scale.

Honestly, I think there are red flags popping up on this breeder that you're ignoring because you like their dogs. You ask about vWD for instance - hasn't the breeder given you an indication of what status the pups will be?

You mention that everyone is warning you about the situation except the breeder. Um, not good. Sounds like the breeder wants to make a sale when everyone else is more concerned about the best possible situation for puppy and owner. And the breeder thinks this is all fine despite knowing the sire is dog aggressive himself!

You mention this is going to be their last litter when the parents are only just over 2 years old. Have they had others when they were less than 2?

If the parents turned 2 just when the litter was being conceived, it sounds like they most likely do not have adequate health testing like certification of normal hips and elbows. That can't be done until they are 2.

The fact that they bred the 2 dogs they happen to own to each other is another red flag. Responsible breeders search out the best male to compliment their female and odds are he isn't going to happen to live in their home. This sounds like a breeding of convenience.

Have you spent some time on this resource?
Buying a Doberman Pinscher guideline

Primo

First and only litter with the two dogs in question. The parent dogs are 2 years and 6 months and their hips/elbows have been certified. The sire is other male aggressive but only with unfamiliar dogs, typically other males that are still intact and it's not biting aggressive but rather dominant aggressive, pin the other dog on the ground sort of thing. The breeder has mentioned vWD and the pups will be tested. They paired the parents from the word go for breeding purposes but have since decided it was going to be a one and done situation (one litter) and they plan to get out of the game all together.

It's not for financial gain or convenience. It's simply the way the cookie crumbled. Her husband got a job that requires him to travel more, they're contemplating a move and continuing the breeding/showing process is a detriment to their future plans. A few family members wanted puppies and a few others were promised before they made the decision to quit all together.

The breeder thinks it's fine because she knows my family dogs and also knows that fish (The Sire) is only unfamiliar male aggressive. He's very protective of her and her husband and he's obviously still intact and won't be in a few months.

As far as Conan and Diego are concerned. Conan is an Amstaff and Diego is a BT. Diego is 6 1/2 months old and we've never had a problem with any of our Amstaffs. Diego is my familes first Boston Terrier. I sincerely doubt there is a issue down the road. Conan is ridiculously docile even with unfamiliar dogs.

I'm just trying to figure out whether or not to adopt a male or female. I'm not at all worried about the stock of the pups or the breeder. The pups are healthy and are health certified by both a vet and a specialist. They'll have their first round of shots, their ears are being left natural and their dew claws and tails were docked within the designated time frame.

Should I worry about a male when it reaches maturity with my family dogs? If yes I'm going to get a female. I don't have Doberman experience, my experience resides exclusively with the American Staffordshire Terrier but can't imagine the Doberman is more male aggressive than a Amstaff? Are they more male aggressive than most breeds?

Oh and yes I've read the puppy buyers guide thoroughly.

lolonurse

Hi again - I have to interject my opinion here, because it flies in the face of traditional wisdom and sanity, but we live with it, so I know this first-hand. We had, until 2 months ago, 3 males and 1 female Doberman. They played, ate, slept, lived together. The very worst part of it was crabbing over who got which part of the couch or loveseat. Alex died 2 months ago, so now we are down to 2 males and a female.
First of all, neuter your male. He isn't a show dog, so there's no reason not to, and you'll all be happier and more calm. Secondly, walk him a lot, and take him to places like Petco and Petsmart, and any other places where they allow dogs. When you take your obedience classes, do some of your practicing in crowded parks and busy parking lots and places where there's noise and activity, so he's used to stuff happening around him, and learns to pay total attention to you. And if there's a dog park, bring him as soon as he's had his shots, and let him get used to playing with all sorts of dogs. It really helps them not get an attitude. (Just watch his stools - if they get loose after spending time at dog parks, have his stool tested for ghiardia).
Alex never had a problem with other dogs. He loved to play, and he would pick a special friend to romp with, and let the crowd do their own thing - these guys are really sweet, well-adjusted, happy dogs.
So, if you feel you can pull off the Alpha role and make it clear that you are his leader and guru, and never ever cut him any slack if he tries to be a hot shot, he'll learn, and be cool. I can't tell you how many people tell me, authoritatively, that "male Dobermans cannot live together", and then learn that we had 3 of them, and still have 2 and are looking for a third, and have no second thoughts about it at all. We have never had problems with our male dogs coexisting very nicely. Lois

Primo

Thank you very much for your response. I've been pulling my hair out for the last few days trying to figure out what to do so this definitely helps. If we 100% decide on a male he will be neutered around 6 months which is when my vet suggested we neuter and I'm assuming when most breeds are spayed or neutered. I guess there are some camps that believe in the early stages of puppy hood. I'm not a subscriber of that camp.

I will 100% establish the alpha role and won't deal with any attitude. I was raised with American Staffordshire terriers and attitude is something they have in bunches if it isn't kept in check. My doberman male or female will be kept in check. I already plan to take him or her to obedience classes and as soon as the vaccines allow dogs parks, parks with kids/adults and other pets, geese, ducks...you name it he/she will be around it. I've had to deal with the negative stigma the Amstaff/Pit Bull carries long enough to know that a well socialized dog is the ONLY option when dealing with the larger more intimidating breeds. The last thing I want is a bad example for the breed, especially one that deals with stereotypes. Doberman, Rottie and Pit Bull to name 3.

Thanks again for the info, I was worried it was a "inevitable" situation. I'm still going to be extra careful and have another month and a half to really figure it out.

berkdogg

One thing about socialization is to expose them to people on bikes. I didn't do that with mine. The other day a guy passes by on bike, and it was like he just went crazy. After a few more encounters he seemed to warm up to them though.

Another thing I wish I had exposed him to were:
guys walking with no shirt,
guys playing soccer by themselves
rough playing little kids

robinb

In my opinion, yes, you should worry about a male Doberman with other males in the same household. Male on male aggression can strike anytime and without any warning. I've owned the breed for over 35 years and would not have more than one male. The male to male aggression is more of a problem in Dobermans than in some other working breeds. Most good breeder's will NOT place a male pup in a household with another male. It's also one of those issues than can pop up after they have lived together in harmony for years.

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Primo

They won't be living under the same roof. I'll be moving back to Pittsburgh upon graduation in 6 months to a year. I will have a place of my own with my gf and the dog, plus our two cats. My parents have two males Conan (Amstaff 1 1/2 85 pounds) and Diego (Boston Terrier 6 mo and 15-20 pounds). Conan is the dominant dog but not in a domineering fashion, he's very docile with other dogs and great with the family dogs.

I'll likely be at my parents place a couple of times a week or them at mine for the occasional family dinner, dog play date etc so I want to be certain that my properly socialized Doberman will be "A Okay" when I'm there.....

Soo not under the same roof. Should I still worry about it?