Is this normal?

changa · 07-01-2008, 10:41 AM

Our puppy is 10 weeks old and even though he's a lot of work, we love him to bits. He's taken to the crate very well and has had only a few accidents in the house, all of which were our fault, of course. We've let him have a bit more space downstairs now (from living room only to l.r./dining/kitchen area) and he's able to go up and down the stairs to his crate on his own. I've got him on a schedule and he's great on it. During the day I take him out of the crate for about an hour at a time and play with him, train him, he eats, eliminates, and he's generally a good dog the whole time.

The problem is he seems to really wake up at night and get really hyper. We train him, play fetch outside, let him graze in the backyard, play tug of war, etc. but no matter what from about 8:30 to around 10 he's go go go. This is also when he is likely to nip and jump on the furniture, which is a no no. We have to tell him repeatedly to get off and after about 5 times he does a frustrated growl and goes to do something else. Is this normal?

Also, I'd really love some other suggestions for getting his energy out. My vet told me I could not take him anywhere until his shots are finished at 16 weeks and it is driving me CRAZY not to be able to walk him or take him places, because he calms down after meeting other people.

Thanks for any replies. I'm so glad I found this forum...it's a lifesaver.

**dobermansrule** · 07-01-2008, 12:25 PM

"We have to tell him repeatedly to get off and after about 5 times he does a frustrated growl and goes to do something else. Is this normal?"

The puppy go-go's are normal - their clock says its playtime all the time unless they are passed out for a puppy nap. You have to teach them what people night time is. Nip the growling in the bud! Teach him now that you tell him one time and he does it - not five times then he does it with attitude. You don't want that to develop into aggressive behavior. Keep it fun, but let him know you mean business.

Murreydobe · 07-01-2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by changa

Our puppy is 10 weeks old and even though he's a lot of work, we love him to bits. He's taken to the crate very well and has had only a few accidents in the house, all of which were our fault, of course. We've let him have a bit more space downstairs now (from living room only to l.r./dining/kitchen area) and he's able to go up and down the stairs to his crate on his own. I've got him on a schedule and he's great on it. During the day I take him out of the crate for about an hour at a time and play with him, train him, he eats, eliminates, and he's generally a good dog the whole time.

The problem is he seems to really wake up at night and get really hyper. We train him, play fetch outside, let him graze in the backyard, play tug of war, etc. but no matter what from about 8:30 to around 10 he's go go go. This is also when he is likely to nip and jump on the furniture, which is a no no. We have to tell him repeatedly to get off and after about 5 times he does a frustrated growl and goes to do something else. Is this normal?

Also, I'd really love some other suggestions for getting his energy out. My vet told me I could not take him anywhere until his shots are finished at 16 weeks and it is driving me CRAZY not to be able to walk him or take him places, because he calms down after meeting other people.

Thanks for any replies. I'm so glad I found this forum...it's a lifesaver.

I've got some concerns here, and then some comments. In your first paragraph you say:

"During the day I take him out of the crate for about an hour at a time and play with him, train him, he eats, eliminates, and he's generally a good dog the whole time."

The only time a puppy should be in a crate is when you're not home, or unable to watch him. Crate training *does not* mean the puppy spends most of his time in the crate! The more the puppy is loose and out of the crate, the more training can be done, and the faster the training proceeds. This could be part of why he gets hyper at night, if he's spend most of the day in a crate....pretty understandable to me.

Beyond that, I think you're giving a 10 week old puppy too much freedom during the time he is out of the crate..at that age, they should be kept close by, under your direct supervision. A puppy that wants to go into another room is a puppy that's up to no good.

Then you say you have to tell him repeatedly to get off the furniture, he complies after about 5 repeats of that order. It's pretty unlikely a 10 week old puppy really understands what "off" means yet-it's up to you to remove him physically while telling him off...don't repeat commands and don't expect dogs to comply with commands they don't yet understand. Say it once, say it like you mean it and follow through with removing him.

If he's already growling at you when you want him to do something he doesn't want to do, you've already got some leadership issues going on..this will only get worse. I think you need to find a puppy kindergarten class to train both you and your puppy.

changa · 07-01-2008, 04:23 PM

Lots of good information. Let me address some of the comments made, since it may not have been clear the first time.

Quote:

The only time a puppy should be in a crate is when you're not home, or unable to watch him. Crate training *does not* mean the puppy spends most of his time in the crate! The more the puppy is loose and out of the crate, the more training can be done, and the faster the training proceeds. This could be part of why he gets hyper at night, if he's spend most of the day in a crate....pretty understandable to me.

He is in the crate for certain periods because I read it was of great importance to get him on a schedule for housetraining, so I was using the crate for that. Also, I am currently on summer vacation and will be teaching soon, and I was afraid if I left him out of the crate all day he would get separation anxiety once I start back to school. Should I go ahead and leave him out of it all day and then start him back on the crate when school starts?

Quote:

Beyond that, I think you're giving a 10 week old puppy too much freedom during the time he is out of the crate..at that age, they should be kept close by, under your direct supervision. A puppy that wants to go into another room is a puppy that's up to no good.

Our house is very small downstairs and has an open floor plan. Whenever he goes in the kitchen and dining area, I can still see him from the living room. I had read if the puppy did not have any accidents for X amount of time, you can gradually start giving him more freedom. We still have the puppy gate, so I can put it back up if necessary.

Quote:

It's pretty unlikely a 10 week old puppy really understands what "off" means yet-it's up to you to remove him physically while telling him off...don't repeat commands and don't expect dogs to comply with commands they don't yet understand. Say it once, say it like you mean it and follow through with removing him.

Yes, we are also pushing him off the couch when we tell him, although we've only just been saying No. We will try the Off command...thanks.

As far as puppy kindergarten, we wanted to join one immediately, but our vet told us to wait until he has had all shots at 16 weeks. We are looking at an in home one-on-one trainer right now. Should we start those lessons now so that he can be done by 16 weeks (it is for 6 weeks)?

Thanks again for your suggestions.

Murreydobe · 07-01-2008, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by changa

He is in the crate for certain periods because I read it was of great importance to get him on a schedule for housetraining, so I was using the crate for that. Also, I am currently on summer vacation and will be teaching soon, and I was afraid if I left him out of the crate all day he would get separation anxiety once I start back to school. Should I go ahead and leave him out of it all day and then start him back on the crate when school starts?

I think it's important for puppies to be on a schedule in that they should be fed roughly at the same times every day. They should be taken outside once an hour, when they first wake up from a nap, and immediately after eating.

But I think they should spend most of their day out of a crate. Obviously if you can't keep them under close supervision, then they need to be crated during that time. If you're out running errands, they should be crated. I wouldn't ever crate a puppy just for the sake of crating it to keep to some arbitrary schedule. That's not training, that's merely containing..there's a difference.

Puppies tend to have a period of activity in the evening before they go to bed for the night. But I bet you'd find your pup would be a bit more controllable during those times if he was out of the crate more during the day...like I said, you can't blame him for being wired for sound if he's been cooped up for a significant portion of the day.

If he's on the furniture you can tell him "no", or you can tell him "off"..it doesn't really matter which word you use. What matters is that you say what you mean and mean what you say-and follow through with enforcing that command after the first time. Repeating a command over and over again only teaches the dog they don't have to do what you say the first time.
In effect, what you've taught them is how inconsistent you are.

**dobermansrule** · 07-01-2008, 06:22 PM

Yes, I would wait for the shots before going to the public class. You don't need a private trainer, in my opinion, merely to get a few week jump start. You can start some basic training at home on your own.

Regarding "training".
You need to establish yourself as leader. You can teach the puppy to sit now on your own. Teach him to sit - there is a bunch of info on the net and DT how to do this. Use treats.

Once he knows sit (a command), start learn to earn. The puppy gets nothing for free. A great way to start basic training around the house. Establishes you as the leader.

Establish a rule -he doesn't get on the couch unless invited. If he jumps up anyway, physically pick him up (establishes you as dominant)and say OFF firmly without scaring the poopy out of him.

Simply having sessions with the pup where you sit on the floor and hold him belly up in between your legs establishes your dominance in a nice way. Hold him on this back until he settle then take the time to rub the paws, the belly, get him used to being handled by you.

Occassionaly, pick the puppy up by crading your hands under his rib cage and lift him off the floor about 6 inches and let his feet dangle until he settles down. It establishes your dominance in low key way.

Regarding the crate, while you are home and able to watch him, let him be out of the crate with you. Try tethering him with a leash as you go about your household stuff. If you cant be with him, crate him for that time. The crate should be well established now as a fun place for him to be so when you do go back to teach, he won't care so much about being in it more while you are gone. Start good 'coming and going' habits now to minimize separation anxiety, ie, don't make a big fuss over leaving or coming in the room. Make it low key. If the puppy is overly excited to see you when you return, don't play to it. Do your 'thing' first, play it cool, then call the pup over, sit, then reward with your attention and affection.

changa · 07-01-2008, 06:55 PM

I used Off with him earlier today and pushed him off the couch as I said it, and it seemed to work. We'll keep working on it.

Yes, I have read a lot on the forum, online, and in books about how to train some of the basic commands. We are following the NILIF method for everything and he knows the basics like Sit, Down, Stay, Leave It, and Shake. We're working on Watch Me, Come, and Fetch/Give.

Tomorrow I will have him out of the crate more and see how it goes. He already thinks of the crate as a positive place so we have that going for us.

I'll get him set up for a group training class when he's 4 months. Thanks again for all of your advice.

Bravo916 · 07-01-2008, 07:40 PM

I might take the unpopular side to this argument but I personally love the crate and use it quite a bit during puppy hood.

This does not mean I get to take a mental vacation and leave my pup sitting in the crate all day because I don't want to deal with him. The reality is that pups need CONSTANT supervision...this is not something anyone can devote 24/7. Rather than set him up for failure and run the risk of accidents in the house, chewing inappropriate items or developing bad habits I use the crate as a tool.

I see nothing wrong with placing a pup in a crate with a stuffed Kong while one accomplishes tasks that interfere with constant supervision. Not only is it giving the owner a chance to get things done it is teaching the pup what it is supposed to be chewing on. It is apparent the OP isn't using the crate as a "nanny" but as a training tool.

Of course the bonding time, exercise and training are absolutely crucial but it sounds like the OP is doing this.

Dogs energy levels peak early in the morning and in the evening. They usually spend the rest of the day napping. It sounds like his evening peak is between 8-10PM so I would definitely schedule a play time in there.

As far as rules go...welcome to Doberman ownership. Dobes require a lot of structure and consistency. As long as the rules are set from the beginning and you remain consistent with those rules he will will get the idea. The key is consistency...this means if you have a no dogs on furniture rule it always applies--even on the days you are home sick and want a snuggle buddy. My experience with Dobes is they like to test your boundaries to see just when and how much they can get away with. If you are consistent, after a few attempts they leave it alone and find another rule to test you on. If you are inconsistent then its the equivalent of "well since my owner cant make up her mind, I'll do it for her: dogs on furniture!"

A short but excellent read that I think all Dobe owners should read is "How to be leader of the pack and have your dog love you for it" which is like $3 on Amazon. It illustrates the everyday behaviors we do that convey leadership to our dogs. This info is priceless when dealing with a bossy pup.

I do agree with the part about him having too much freedom. Along with the NILIF lines, he only gets as much freedom as he has earned. Try using an Xpen and blocking him off in the room with you.

Tying him to you is an excellent idea that was brought up.

Congratulations on your little guy!

dobesanddragons · 07-01-2008, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by changa

Our puppy is 10 weeks old and even though he's a lot of work, we love him to bits. He's taken to the crate very well and has had only a few accidents in the house, all of which were our fault, of course. We've let him have a bit more space downstairs now (from living room only to l.r./dining/kitchen area) and he's able to go up and down the stairs to his crate on his own. I've got him on a schedule and he's great on it. During the day I take him out of the crate for about an hour at a time and play with him, train him, he eats, eliminates, and he's generally a good dog the whole time.

The problem is he seems to really wake up at night and get really hyper. We train him, play fetch outside, let him graze in the backyard, play tug of war, etc. but no matter what from about 8:30 to around 10 he's go go go. This is also when he is likely to nip and jump on the furniture, which is a no no. We have to tell him repeatedly to get off and after about 5 times he does a frustrated growl and goes to do something else. Is this normal?

Also, I'd really love some other suggestions for getting his energy out. My vet told me I could not take him anywhere until his shots are finished at 16 weeks and it is driving me CRAZY not to be able to walk him or take him places, because he calms down after meeting other people.

Thanks for any replies. I'm so glad I found this forum...it's a lifesaver.

If you puppy is healthy and a normal puppy I only have a second but wanted to say DO NOT wait to take him anywhere until he is 16 weeks old. This is not okay. He needs to be properly socialized, and has had some shots. Take him out with you everywhere, at least one new place a day, more on weekends, get him out on walks daily, to the bank drive-thru with you, to get your oil changed, bring treats for others to feed him, and so on. This time now is the time to mold him and train him and expose him to as much as possible as far as good experiences. I would not recommend dog parks or places where lots of loose random dogs are that you don't know if they are vaccinated at all or if they are nice to puppies, etc.
I will echo that puppy training classes are a must at a nice place, try to find something different than Petsmart. Puppy kindergarten is a must to keep his mind active among other things.

KEstep · 07-01-2008, 10:17 PM

I got my pup at 8 weeks and I started taking her everywhere with me. She loves visiting all my friends and their dogs (wonderful for wearing out a pup). I did not start taking her places where a bunch of random dogs would be until I got more of her shots. I had no problems and she is turning into a very good citizen.
She is in the crate anytime i cannot watch her. I let her have the backyard for an hour in the morning when I am getting ready for work where she eats poops and runs off some energy and then she goes into her crate for 3 or 4 hours before i get in from lunch and she gets to play and have some time in the yard again. Then back in the crate until I am off work and then we spend the rest of the evening together. She has the same "bout" of energy around 9 in the evening so I just let her go crazy because after that she sleeps ALL night. When I put her in the crate she likes having some music going, it calms her down and she doesn't feel like I am gone.