Feeding a preamie!

**Retta** · 06-08-2008, 02:20 PM

Have a question for the breeders out there. I have a premie pup that was born, by emergency c-section at 8 1/2 ounces. He is so tiny, but still tries to nurse, and has normal stools, (I do the stimulating), and urine output. I tube him with Just Born and my own concoction formula, of Goats milk, pedilyte, Karo syrup, a tbsp of corn oil, and egg yolk. (every 4-6 hrs by tubing). He will be two weeks old tomorrow and he is not putting wgt on very fast. His brother and sisters look like 6 wk old pups next to him (they are at almost 3 lbs now.). He only weighs 12 1/2 ounces now. (He did go down to 7 ounces for two days after he was born. I just gave him pedilyte with Karo syrup and water for a day after that as his temp was only 94. After that it went to 97-99 and has been pretty steady since.
Has anyone got any suggestions as to a better "put on wgt formula for him" and has anyone had a puppy with a similar wgt and did they catch up as they got older.??? To be honest I have never had one this little and survive!
I will not give up on him, no matter what, but am at my witts end, worrying whether I am doing something I shouldn't or not doing something I should!!
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Dobeman · 06-08-2008, 03:01 PM

I have never had such a small puppy. Mine are usually 16-18 oz at birth. It is normal for a puppy to lose a little bit of weight on day 1, about 10 %.

Normal body temperature for a newborn puppy is 94-97 F, in the second week 97-99 after that it goes up to normal adult temperature.

If a puppy knows how to nurse and is strong enough to do so, I will not tube feed because it seems to delay them developmentally. If they are not strong enough to nurse on Mom, or if Mom is not available for whatever reason, I use the Gerber bottle with slow flow nipple and a formula that is not too thick or too thin.

When he does nurse on Mom, does his tummy fill up? Sometimes puppies are not strong enough to get the milk to flow. You may want to put one of the stronger pups on Mom for a bit to get the milk flowing and then put him on.

My own concoction is similar to yours, but probably has more calories, so if you want the recipe, let me know.

How often does he eat?

You can also give him some Nutri-Cal several times a day for a calorie boost, and right before nursing to make him stronger. Do you have Pet Nutridrops? They are fantastic for little guys like that.

How much weight does he gain per day? At that age I weigh mine every 12 hours.

The best of luck with your little guy.

Rauschund · 06-08-2008, 03:19 PM

Are you putting him on mom first every couple of hours? If he still cannot nurse by himself or with a bottle you may be fighting a losing battle. In Gemma's first litter she had one pup we tubed for a couple of weeks, when we put her on the teat she would only suckle for a second. She never did gain any weight and at 3 weeks old we had to make a very horrible decision. We were afraid there was more wrong with her than met the eye, which would just lead to more heartache later on.
What you're feeding sounds good......depends on if you are still having to tube like a newborn or not I guess.

Dobemom2b · 06-08-2008, 03:20 PM

I have saved many kittens using the nutridrops Bovidr Laboratores, Inc. - Pet Nutri-Drops . It absorbs even if they do not swallow. They obviously have less body weight to begin with.

I also gave all adults and kittens lixotinic Pfizer Animal Health LIXOTINIC® Product Overview. It's the same as pet tinic Pfizer Animal Health PET TINIC® Product Overview but in larger quantities labled for horses.

To compare the 2 products you would use x6 of what the pet tinic says the contents are because its measured in 5ml doses, the lixotinic is measured at 30ml dose size.
http://www.pfizerah.com/PAHimages/co...compliance.pdf
http://www.pfizerah.com/PAHimages/co...compliance.pdf

Also look to make sure the pallet is closed if he is having sucking problems.

My supplement formula was also very similar to yours but I put the lixotinic in it. I also made it and gave it in bowls for kittens and mihed the lixotinic directly on raw ground meat to feed everyone once a day.

Dobeman · 06-08-2008, 03:28 PM

It is very normal for some puppies not to know how to nurse after a C-section right away. It can take up to 2-3 days. When all they get is tube feeding, they may never learn.

thea2003 · 06-08-2008, 03:52 PM

Obviously this would be different because are puppies and not kittens, but here are some recipes for "glop"
Which many cat breeders use to supplement litters of 5 or more

INGREDIENTS:
1 lg. can evaporated milk (not Milnot)
2 tbsp. plain yogurt (not diet)
2 tbsp. mayonnaise (real)
1 tbs. Karo Syrup (light)
1 pkg. Knox gelatin
1 egg yolk (beaten)
1 cup of liquid unflavored Pedialyte

INSTRUCTIONS:
Mix milk, yogurt, mayonnaise and syrup together well.
Bring 1 cup water to boil and mix in Knox gelatin; set aside.
Mix egg yolk with small amount of milk mixture and beat well.
Add gelatin and water to milk mixture and beat well. Add in egg yolk mixture and beat well.
Pour into a freezer safe bowl or similar type of bowl with a cover and set in refrigerator.
We usually use Ice Cube Trays for our glop pudding. Pudding will last for two weeks covered in refrigerator.
Always warm pudding to room temperature (milk form) before feeding.
It is very rich in calcium, this pudding can be used as a supplement for kittens, sick cats and show cats to put on weight. Several Veterinarians have approved this recipe as being balanced and nutritious.

FRANNY SYUFY'S ABOUT.COM GLOP
Popularly known as "Kitty Glop" among breeders, this recipe is packed with nutrition for orphaned kittens, nursing mother cats and their babies, cats recuperating from illness and older cats who need nutritional supplementing. Some recipes call for canned goats milk; if you have it readily available it's fine, otherwise canned evaporated cows' milk works well.¹ The recipe sets up to a gelatin-like consistency in the refrigerator, and can be stored there for up to two weeks. It can also be frozen in an ice tray for convenience in serving. To serve, warm to room temperature. Do not pour back unused portions into the mix.

12 oz. of water
1 envelope Knox Gelatin
1 12oz can of whole evaporated milk (not skim)
2 tablespoons mayonnaise
2 tablespoons plain yogurt, not nonfat

Boil the water, add the gelatin - stir well. Add the following ingredients in order, mixing well after each addition: 1/2 of the canned milk, mayonnaise and yogurt; the rest of the milk. Variations include the addition of kitty vitamins, acidophilus, and/or pureed baby food meat such as lamb, chicken, or beef. Franny adds: "I have seen variations with two egg yolks added, but I would caution against this, due to the risk of salmonella with raw eggs. For very easy mixing, you can use a blender at low speed, but I also like a bowl with a wire whisk."

¹ Many older cats have difficulty digesting cows' milk. The acidophilus may help with this, but you might want to try mixing a very small amount to test on your older kitty first.

DEBBIE ARSICH'S BELLBOOKNBENGAL GLOP
Pedialyte: 10-12 ounces
Goat's Milk: 12 ounce can
Knox gelatin: 1 package
Mayonnaise (the real stuff): 2 Tablespoons
Plain, Live Culture Yogurt: 2 Tablespoons
Karo Syrup: 1 teaspoon
Baby Meat (I use Beechnut turkey or veal): 2 jars

Boil the Pedialyte, add gelatin and dissolve. Add other ingredients; stir till well mixed. The mayonnaise will clump and rise to the top, so this will be lumpy.

Debbie says, "This recipe was given to me by my sister-in-law Denise Gross in Kentucky and it has been around for quite awhile. Many breeders are very grateful to the unknown originator of this recipe as it has proven invaluable to us time and time again!! This recipe makes a lot of formula, so I freeze it in pint containers. Then I can defrost in the microwave, use it for 2 or 3 feedings, then throw away the rest. I also found that if a kitten is real lethargic and unwilling to eat, you can mix a little syrup with Pedialyte and give it that to start with. It perks them up, then give the formula. The syrup and electrolytes will give them a boost, but not stay with them long. The yogurt is a real treat for the other cats. They really love it. I think the company is 'Mountain High' or something like that, and they only seem to sell it in the bigger containers. You could freeze it too, but you don't want to freeze it again as glop."

"It only takes a few minutes to cook, but lock the cats up when you start to cook this. Otherwise they will be all over you!!! It is very easy to transfer the kittens to eating on their own with this recipe, as they are used to the taste. I just start adding kitten food to it and showing them how to lap it up. Then decrease the glop a little at a time. It usually takes just about a week to completely wean the kittens, using this glop recipe."

PETPROSPECTS.COM KITTEN GLOP RECIPE
Kitten Glop is a suitable feed mixture for healthy kittens and is also good for lactating queens. Most recipes refer to American brand names which are not understood outside of the USA/Canada. We have converted these to generic terms and noted alternatives.

INGREDIENTS:
* 1 envelope unflavored gelatin
* water per gelatin package directions (approx 12 oz)
* 1 12 oz can whole evaporated milk (not skimmed) See notes
* 3 tablespoons plain yogurt (not low fat)
* 3 teaspoons clear corn syrup See notes
* 3 tablespoons mayonnaise
* 1 or 2 raw egg yolks (optional) See notes

NOTES:
If you have canned goat's milk available, use this instead as it reduces the likelihood of lactose intolerance problems. Sheep's milk is even higher in fat but not generally available in cans. Some recipes use 2 tablespoons mayonnaise, 2 tablespoons plain yogurt and omit the corn syrup entirely. Clear corn syrup (e.g. "Karo" brand in the US) is a concentrated glucose solution. It contains 15% - 20% dextrose (glucose), a mixture of other types of sugar and may be flavored with vanilla. Dark corn syrup is made with molasses and is more strongly flavored. Raw eggs can be a source of salmonella. Do not use any egg white in the mixture, it can prevent other nutrients from being digested. Kitty vitamins and/or acidophilus are sometimes added. Only add vitamins if the diet is deficient in them - vitamins can be dangerous in too high quantities (hyper-vitaminosis) and vitamin imbalances affect development.

METHOD:
Boil the water and mix in gelatin powder. Add the other ingredients in the following order, mixing well after each addition: half of the canned milk, corn syrup (if used), mayonnaise + yogurt, egg yolk (if used), remainder of the canned milk. Use either an egg beater or a blender set to low speed. Serve the glop at room temperature or slightly warmed since the kittens will be used to warm milk. Warming the mixture makes it more pungent and therefore more appetizing. Do not pour back unused portions into the stored mix as it may introduce contaminants. Glop sets into a jelly when refrigerated. It can either be stored in the fridge in a covered container for up to 2 weeks or frozen into individual portions in ice cube trays and defrosted as needed. Freezing it is very convenient, but it must be properly thawed before serving as cold food will cause stomach upsets in young kittens.

DR. BOBBY GLENN, DVM & STEPHANIE MOORE'S
KITTEN FORMULA RECIPE
Stephanie tells us that Dr. Glenn has been working very hard helping her and others in cat rescue for over 10 years, and he has used and recommended this formula for over 25 years!!

INGREDIENTS:
* 12 oz can evaporated milk
* 1/2 cup water
* 1 egg yolk
* 1 tsp kayro syrup
* 1-2 drops of vitamin

* Pedialyte formula (from World Health Organization)...no preservatives so short life-span
* 1 cup water
* 2 tsp sugar
* 1/8 tsp salt
* 1/8 tsp baking soda
* (this Pedialyte formula gives needed electrolytes & some sugar for energy)

Combine all ingredients and warm slightly.

Hopefully that might help?

Dobeman · 06-08-2008, 04:10 PM

Here is what I have been using with great success. It is from the CanineRepro list. It works well with the Gerber baby bottle with the slow flow nipple. Can be tubed.

Boil one large piece of liver in a cup of water (add water if needed) until it is very cooked. Strain the liquid and freeze leftover liquid in ice cube trays and keep in plastic bag.

One 10 oz can of goats milk
3 oz of Liver water (above)
One raw egg yolk
One cup of whole fat live culture yogurt
One tablepoon of mayo or canola oil
One dropper of infant vitamins
One teaspoon of Karo...light or dark...doesn't matter which

Mix in a blender, keeps in your fridge for 7 days. This is a thick formula, so adjust holes in nipples if necessary. It can be tubed. It has 10-12 calories per cc which should allow for good weight gain on your babies.

It is thick enough to avoid aspiration

There is enough yogurt to avoid diarrhea issues that are so common with tubing
There is enough glucose to avoid hypoglycemia
There is also enough glucose to avoid constipation, common with tubing
There are enough calories to set up a weight gaining pattern immediately
Amino Acids in sufficient quantities to avoid juvenile cataract
It is high in Fats, Proteins and Carbs with vitamins, minerals and iron and designed especially to head off the problems we all seem to have with tubing/hand raised babies.

**BackInBlack** · 06-08-2008, 05:30 PM

There was a runt in Brownie's litter. He was VERY much the runt also. He was much, much smaller than the rest of the litter. For the first day or two he did really well eating on his own. Then he started fading and I had to tube him. He literally lived under my shirt for the first 24 hours I was tube feeding him. He was not staying warm enough with mom and the litter.

I weighed in grams instead of oz so that I could see even the slightest changes, but here are a few of little runtling's stats.

Day 1: 195 grams (6.87oz) (like I said, he was tiny)

I started tubing him on day 2, 3 or 4, (I cant remember now, and I cant find where I wrote down his tube feeding schedule at) but he was still only about 7oz.

18 days after he was born he was 1lb 8oz. At 1 month and 1 day old, he was 4lb 4oz. At 6 week vet vist he was 6lb 12oz. He stayed smaller than the rest of the litter until about 6-7 weeks. He started catching up by then, and actually surpassed one of the smaller puppies in weight. I think he will grow up to be a normal sized dobe. He was a very feisty little guy.

I used the leerburg formula to tube with. (and in a bottle when he would take it) It is also about 11-12 calories per CC, and it is pretty thick.

I just tube fed a German Shepherd puppy for a friend of mine with this formula also, it only took him 3 feedings and he was back with mom, and is still doing great.

1. 10 oz. of canned evaporated milk or goat's milk (not pasteurized cow's milk - this will cause scowers - dogs cannot drink normal cow's milk) Goats milk is by far the best to use. Wall Mart sells it.

2. 3 oz. sterilized water (baby water or boiled water) this is not needed if using goat's milk

3. 1 raw egg yolk

4. 1 cup of whole yogurt (avoid skim or fat free if at all possible)

5. 1/2 Tsp Karo Syrup or Corn Syrup (NOT HONEY !!!)

****If you cannot find Karo or Corn syrup where you live, you can do a Google search for “substitute for Karo syrup” and get some options.****

When I Googled “substitute for Karo syrup" here is what I came up with- 1 c Karo can be subbed with 1 c white sugar and 1/4 c hot water (cook it to dissolve in the water best you can get it to. Depending on the recipe, if you need the sugar to be completely dissolved you might need to add a bit more water).

Place ingredients in a blender and blend or use a wire whisk. Be careful to not over blend and create a milk shake full of bubbles and then tube bubbles into the puppy.

Keep cool and discard leftovers after 7 days.

Warm formula to body temperature (dogs are around 101 degrees). Discard any un-used formula. This is a thick mixture - use a stomach tube to tube feed or enlarge the hole in the nipple for easy access for the pup.

I also used their weight guide to determine how much to feed.
Bottle Feeding Puppies

Good luck with your baby.

**Retta** · 06-09-2008, 11:35 AM

Also look to make sure the pallet is closed if he is having sucking problems.

No cleft palate. He is perfect in every way, just tiny!!! His bowel movements are more normal than his 3 siblings, that are twice his size. They are getting so much milk they have a tendency to have loose stools. He acts pretty normal, although weak and gets tired fast. I have some puppy supplement paste which is similar to pet cal. Thanks for your post.

**Retta** · 06-09-2008, 11:53 AM

Thank you for the info. I will try it. The only thing different is the yogurt. Never thought of that. I have used corn oil. Just a tbs. in a quart of formula. And I have been feeding every 4-6 hrs (depending on if he nursed or at least looked like he was getting something and his tummy was rounded. ) I weigh him every time before I tube him and give him the amount of 1cc per oz. He is 12 oz now so give him 12 cc every 4 hours. I have never had such a tiny pup, but a few yrs ago had one that weighed at birth 10 oz, but never tubed her, and she grew up to be a beautiful standard strong bitch. Thanks for all your help!