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Old 01-22-2013, 02:39 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosamburg View Post
I have not the experience in AKC competitive experience to offer an opinion. In Schutzhund If a dog breaks a long down and disrupts the other dogs routine, the other dog is going to be allowed to continue. I had a dog actually break the down and attack Hara when we were going for a Sch1. The attacking dog was DQ'd, Hara was allowed to re-group and continue.

I am not going to enter a trial if my dog is out of control (I have seen that in other teams). But I have also seen the other side where people never enter an event because they do not think everything is perfect. This is what I am speaking to. There has been a considerable amount of training and proofing done before we are entering a trial however.
Having been (very mildly) in sch and also surrounded by akc obedience and more since I was in the womb, I can honestly say things are pretty different.

If you look at the obedience thread, asmit is discussing all the things she has to change with her boy zeus from how they prepared and passed their BH to now get a UD in akc.

Each different sport has very different techniques in my opinion though some knowledge (such as when to enter) can be correct no matter what the sport
--------------------------

As to the original question, I'm in the same shoes, i've trained to a certain level yet never competed. That being said I never expect nor demand perfection. AND like suggested proof proof proof! all over the dang place! and make it random sometimes too (i.e. not a night the dog knows they dog to training)

For instance Mabel's side finishes she tends to be a hair back from next to me or she may angle a tiny bit to the side in her front finish. But! she does it fast and she does what I ask correctly(minus the above) every single time and with a boatload of enthusiasm I don't see enough in the dogs around here.
I'd rather loose minor points over that and still Q than have a dog hate to work OR rotate around in what they aren't great at because I worried so much about it being perfect.
I've seen the dogs that are worked to be "perfect" at trials, they always seem to blow something to some degree or decide to blow mom off because it isn't fun anymore.

I'd rather have a happy loser than an unhappy winner
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:26 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
In AKC, if your dog breaks the sit or down, they NQ. Doesn't matter if the dog next to them gets up and wanders over. Doesn't matter if something happens outside the ring to distract them. If they go from a sit to a down or stand, or from a down to a sit or stand, even if they don't move from the spot they are in, the have NQd. This applies to both the Novice stays with the handlers in the ring, and the Open stays, with the handlers out of sight.

An NQ can also be for a handler error. The Signal excercise in Utiltity is a good example. If you forget, and use a verbal command, you've just NQd. If in Open, you give a command and signal for the Drop on Recall, you've just NQ.
Depending on the judge, if the dog who approaches yours is aggressive, they usually let you redo the stay. I would always ask. If just a sniff or a casual walk over probably not a redo.

Signals: You can actually use a verbal ONCE but not in conjunction with a signal. Cheers has frozen with deer in headlights look at the start and I signaled the heel and was heeling alone for 2 steps! Legally, I said "Cheers heel" for a 5 point 2nd heel command deduction. I'm now teaching her to forge at the start of the signal heel command to get a jump up and start to the exercise.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam1491 View Post
Having been (very mildly) in sch and also surrounded by akc obedience and more since I was in the womb, I can honestly say things are pretty different.

If you look at the obedience thread, asmit is discussing all the things she has to change with her boy zeus from how they prepared and passed their BH to now get a UD in akc.

Each different sport has very different techniques in my opinion though some knowledge (such as when to enter) can be correct no matter what the sport
--------------------------

As to the original question, I'm in the same shoes, i've trained to a certain level yet never competed. That being said I never expect nor demand perfection. AND like suggested proof proof proof! all over the dang place! and make it random sometimes too (i.e. not a night the dog knows they dog to training)

For instance Mabel's side finishes she tends to be a hair back from next to me or she may angle a tiny bit to the side in her front finish. But! she does it fast and she does what I ask correctly(minus the above) every single time and with a boatload of enthusiasm I don't see enough in the dogs around here.
I'd rather loose minor points over that and still Q than have a dog hate to work OR rotate around in what they aren't great at because I worried so much about it being perfect.
I've seen the dogs that are worked to be "perfect" at trials, they always seem to blow something to some degree or decide to blow mom off because it isn't fun anymore.

I'd rather have a happy loser than an unhappy winner
I agree! I accepted crooked front and finish from Rexy for years as he just never got it that it was a precise thing. (He was rescued at 2, started obedience at 3, and started trials at 4.) We tried heeling around cones and other things to sharpen him up for hind end awareness and he plowed over cones with not a worry or concern! So going in the ring, I had fun and enthusiasm but knew I would lose 1/2 to 1 point off each front and finish that was slightly crooked. I knew that it was the best that he could do. Cheers likes to jump up to do the flip finish and sometimes smacks me with her nose or foot, which is a deduction- okay by me as the jump up means she is in her zone and happy. What I find acceptable someone else might find totally unacceptable but I enjoy the partnership with each dog.
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:33 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellenm View Post
Depending on the judge, if the dog who approaches yours is aggressive, they usually let you redo the stay. I would always ask. If just a sniff or a casual walk over probably not a redo.

Signals: You can actually use a verbal ONCE but not in conjunction with a signal. Cheers has frozen with deer in headlights look at the start and I signaled the heel and was heeling alone for 2 steps! Legally, I said "Cheers heel" for a 5 point 2nd heel command deduction. I'm now teaching her to forge at the start of the signal heel command to get a jump up and start to the exercise.



Good to know


I agree! I accepted crooked front and finish from Rexy for years as he just never got it that it was a precise thing. (He was rescued at 2, started obedience at 3, and started trials at 4.) We tried heeling around cones and other things to sharpen him up for hind end awareness and he plowed over cones with not a worry or concern! So going in the ring, I had fun and enthusiasm but knew I would lose 1/2 to 1 point off each front and finish that was slightly crooked. I knew that it was the best that he could do. Cheers likes to jump up to do the flip finish and sometimes smacks me with her nose or foot, which is a deduction- okay by me as the jump up means she is in her zone and happy. What I find acceptable someone else might find totally unacceptable but I enjoy the partnership with each dog.
Same here, in the end i'm in it for the bonding during the training and the well mannered house dog I get out of it. Titles are really just icing on the cake
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:45 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Technically, Ellen, we are both right. I was specifically talking about the Stand, Down, Sit and Come portion.

"Section 7. Signal Exercise, Scoring. A dog that fails to obey the
handler’s first signal to stand, stay, down, sit or come or that receives
a verbal command from the handler to do any of these parts of the
exercise, must receive a non-qualifying (NQ) score. Depending on the
specific circumstances, minor or substantial deductions will be made
for a dog that walks forward on the stand, down or sit portions of the
exercise. The deduction could be up to an NQ. A substantial deduction
will be made for any audible command during the heeling or finish portions
of the exercise."
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:56 PM   #30 (permalink)
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My question is with the dumbbell and the retrieve. It is toward the bottom with the ******** if you don't want to read the rest. I'm reading this and finding it full of very good information. It has been many years since I trained a pup for competition and I had Sierra, dog extrodinare.

Enter new pup. He is 8 months now. I have only done play/reward with him so far. He heels perfectly and looks at me. He can still occasionally sit and lean out so I only heel him against walls right now. His come is progressing nicely. I play a lot with him because I don't want him to be bored or hate it like Eli, so far he loves obedience. Downs were the hardest and we still work on stay. Daily we work on stay. He gets distracted still and will break so I only do stay on leash and still am close to him so I can put him back down and start over. He will down from a distance and sit from a distance we do this when playing at the field. He is a collie so distance stuff comes easily for him. I do have Eli down stay with him because Eli is awesome at stays, he doesn't break which works well for his therapy visits.
If he is breaking a stay consistently, go back to shorter duration and/or shorter distance from him for success. Then lengthen duration as he learns patience. They actually have to break it for them to understand that stay means stay. I dumb down stays for a long time to keep them successful, such as doing stay nose to knees, then a few steps away, then return around the dog. (As you know the return around the back of the dog is a real test of understanding.) Then I lengthen the distance. If in a new place or strange line up of dogs, I tend to step on 6' leash at first with a dog so young. Great you have Eli to be a model for the stay!
****So...He fetches sometimes, likes it doesn't love it, in the field he is so/so about it. Sometimes he is into and sometimes he isn't. At home he is retrieves much better and will retrieve almost anything I throw for the most part but will tire of it after 15 minutes so I only do it for 5 or so, to stop with him still enjoying himself. He does love tug. I'm afraid to bring out a dumbbell at this point since he isn't a great retriever. Should I? I could probably do it in the hallway in the house to begin with because he will fetch all sorts of stuff in the hallway. I feel like I am screwing up the retrieve because he is already 8 months. Thoughts?

I'll describe what works for me. I'm sure others have other methods. If he were mine I would not worry about the dumbbell yet. Does he run after the tug toy? I'd get him dashing down your hall for the tug, or do the 2 fluffy toy game- bring one, drop it, and run for #2. Yes to stopping the game with him wanting more. If your boy really gets wound up with the fun of hallway retrieve with toy, ball, whatever, then just casually toss the dumbbell after you have played with toys and see what he does. It won't ruin him to try it and see. If he ignores it, then just go move it around and let him sniff it and call it a day for now. Don't add the distraction of being outside. I teach all new skills in a small area indoors, then out in the front yard, then somewhere else at home, then off property.
Jules will retrieve all day like Cheers. I can heave the dumbbell but do not use a word, do not make him wait, just let him see it go- and he runs to get it and comes right back to me for more because he's used to the 2 ball game. We do not do this much but enough that he thinks it's a fun addition to his other games. I will add the formal words to this in the future, and have him learn to wait for the throw as well.
Wally has about 3-4 efforts of retrieve playtime and he's done. I did lots of fluffy toy retrieves with him when little to just keep the retrieve fun. Then clicker trained him for dumbbell when he was about a year old. Basically he thinks dumbbell=chicken, hot dog, etc when he returns. Too long to put that here but I did describe the method to Burns ago. Thus Wally is very reliable with the dumbbell. He likes getting it, just isn't over the moon about it like Cheers or Jules.
Rexy did not learn to retrieve until he was 4 and is not a natural retriever, does not run after a ball at all. He does not bring any toy back ever. He does love to eat however so the clicker method worked very well for him and he was a very good dumbbell retriever for me.

Kind of long winded here....sorry! Hope this helps.


We are starting beginning agility Feb 9. He has been is classes all his little life, positive classes and for the most part he does very well. His meet and greet with other dogs is still a work in progress, he gets very excited.
Lucky to starting agility already! Too cold here so we will have a late spring start to puppy agility
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:34 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Ellen, first I want to thank you so much for your advice, stories and time!

Yes, he does fetch tug toys, fluffy toys and balls in the hall and enjoys it very much. He also fetches outside in the back yard on the patio. If we go to the orchard part of the yard or the field then he gets distracted and will fetch sometimes and sometimes not, or he runs after it starts bringing it to me and a bird catches his attention or a smell and he drops it and does not pick it up again.

I do go around him and even hunker down behind him which is VERY hard for this dog. Eli got the stay faster but Sebastian looks at me with attention when heeling and Eli is still hit or miss with that, like I said Eli doesn't like obedience. Eli is also a fetching fiend but he wouldn't drop it, you told me to use two balls years ago and that made all the difference. Once he got the retrieve I could teach him anything if I had a ball. The pup is more food motivated at this point but he does enjoy the tug a lot so I'm mixing it up.

The difference in personalities is huge yet I am respecting Eli more and more even though the pup is biddable and attentive which Eli was not until he was 3 years old LOL. The instructor has me bring Eli as the demo dog and he gets to work some and get lots of luvin from the people. Funny how each dog has their own niche.

Yes I'm very lucky to be starting agility. A whole new world for me!! I'm sure pup will do fine, I am not Miss Coordination so we shall see how "I" do.

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Lucky to starting agility already! Too cold here so we will have a late spring start to puppy agility
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Old 01-22-2013, 08:58 PM   #32 (permalink)
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actually in AKC obedience, your dog can NQ the stays just by repositioning - if the judge sees daylight or an elbow come up, they can NQ you.

akc obedience can take all kinds - whether you just want to qualify or just win a class or just finish a UD to those who want to be the best.

i want an OTCH.so i strive for perfection. i dont want to settle for anything less.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:20 PM   #33 (permalink)
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actually in AKC obedience, your dog can NQ the stays just by repositioning - if the judge sees daylight or an elbow come up, they can NQ you.

akc obedience can take all kinds - whether you just want to qualify or just win a class or just finish a UD to those who want to be the best.

i want an OTCH.so i strive for perfection. i dont want to settle for anything less.
Frankly, I'm one of the ones who is happy just to get a Q. We've come in seventh in a class of seven, and I've been just as thrilled to get that green ribbon as I was to get a first place ribbon in a class of two.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:27 PM   #34 (permalink)
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It's all about mentality and personal goals.

I'd love an OTCH, UDX...etc but if don't think my dog can get that high, i'm happy with as high as they can go.
Obviously if I go out looking for a performance pup (which my next dog, and next dobe will be) I will have slightly higher standards, but I never set a goal I don't think the dog and I can realistically achieve, even if that puts my bar lower than I'd prefer.
In my area I see a few to many people pushing their dogs beyond what makes them happy to reach that OTCH or HIT or UDX/CDX and the performance suffers for it. Personally I just don't like to put that kind of pressure on my dog.

Right now I'm just one of those people who wishes she could trial her dog, she's ready to get all the way up to but not compete in utility, but she literally just isn't safe in the ring, it's a bigger problem and unfortunately one we may never conqueror...
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:32 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I am still a novice, so I don't have any wisdom, just notes to remind myself later.
I found that my BH foundation was fantastic for our other work, so I'm interested in seeing what Asmit has to do differently. (will go read the thread later)

As for me, I'd go back and tell myself to stop complaining about all the heeling work. At the time I thought it was more pointless than worthwhile. Dummy me!

I would go back and tell myself to teach a kick-back/pop up stand rather than a step-forward.

I would go back and tell myself to do a better job correcting for fronts to present the clearest picture possible to the dog.

I would go back and learn the value of footwork earlier. I figured it out on my own later on, but I wonder if I could have shaved some point deductions by just using better footwork.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:35 PM   #36 (permalink)
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PS, asking a novice question here -
Aside from aggressive dogs, why don't people train/proof for other dogs getting up/approaching theirs during the sits/downs? Am I oversimplifying this because I'm missing something? Honest question.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:42 AM   #37 (permalink)
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PS, asking a novice question here -
Aside from aggressive dogs, why don't people train/proof for other dogs getting up/approaching theirs during the sits/downs? Am I oversimplifying this because I'm missing something? Honest question.
Me personally I do try and proof it and set up situations where it happens...

Some people just don't train it/doesn't occur to them/ or they don't think they need to unfortunately. Depending on the style of trainer I've seen the attitude at training class of being more worried and upset about their dog just never getting up or moving than if someone elses dog does get up! Basically they aren't proofing for outside problems just their own.
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Old 01-23-2013, 08:54 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I am still a novice, so I don't have any wisdom, just notes to remind myself later.
I found that my BH foundation was fantastic for our other work, so I'm interested in seeing what Asmit has to do differently. (will go read the thread later)

As for me, I'd go back and tell myself to stop complaining about all the heeling work. At the time I thought it was more pointless than worthwhile. Dummy me!

I would go back and tell myself to teach a kick-back/pop up stand rather than a step-forward.

I would go back and tell myself to do a better job correcting for fronts to present the clearest picture possible to the dog.

I would go back and learn the value of footwork earlier. I figured it out on my own later on, but I wonder if I could have shaved some point deductions by just using better footwork.
None of the prep work or trialling for my BH needs to be changed or done differently for akc. I agree with you that it helped give a very solid foundation.

The biggest difference/change I am making is focusing less on animation and more on correctness. I don't wanna have little points knocked here and there, and with Zeus, I never required perfection as long as he was happy. With drama, who will only do bite sports, her foundation has been much more strict because at the upper levels of schutzhund, you also need close to perfection to win.

In the thread, I spoke of the glove retrieve needig to be different than his IPO forced dumbbell retrieve. This will carry over to the dumbbell retrieve in akc, but with the 3 glove exercise, he enjoys it enough to not require a forced direction. It's just a bit different than a normal schutzhund retrieve
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Old 01-23-2013, 09:44 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Me personally I do try and proof it and set up situations where it happens...

Some people just don't train it/doesn't occur to them/ or they don't think they need to unfortunately. Depending on the style of trainer I've seen the attitude at training class of being more worried and upset about their dog just never getting up or moving than if someone elses dog does get up! Basically they aren't proofing for outside problems just their own.
Shoot - one of our trainers does all KINDS of proofing just as part of his everyday drop-in class. He teaches the dogs and handlers HOW to deal with other dogs in their space/proximity, instead of trying to avoid it.

As an example, one Lab originally came to us with DA/reactivity issues. This past fall she was entered in Utility, doing the first directed jump, when a Newfoundland in the Novice ring jumped over the ring gate, ran right into the Lab as she was landing from the jump. (It appeared the Newf wanted to play, but really, when a 150lb dog is running at your 65lb dog..!) The Lab still managed to keep going and get into something of a front position while Newfoundland owner collected their dog. About 2-3 seconds of recovery and the dog went on to do the next go-out and directed jump, and qualified for her Utility leg. Because they practiced/proofed for other dogs.

Admittedly, if she hadn't passed or been able to compose herself, that would've been understandable. That Newf was HUGE! Meanwhile, the owner never came over to apologize.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:06 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Shoot - one of our trainers does all KINDS of proofing just as part of his everyday drop-in class. He teaches the dogs and handlers HOW to deal with other dogs in their space/proximity, instead of trying to avoid it.

As an example, one Lab originally came to us with DA/reactivity issues. This past fall she was entered in Utility, doing the first directed jump, when a Newfoundland in the Novice ring jumped over the ring gate, ran right into the Lab as she was landing from the jump. (It appeared the Newf wanted to play, but really, when a 150lb dog is running at your 65lb dog..!) The Lab still managed to keep going and get into something of a front position while Newfoundland owner collected their dog. About 2-3 seconds of recovery and the dog went on to do the next go-out and directed jump, and qualified for her Utility leg. Because they practiced/proofed for other dogs.

Admittedly, if she hadn't passed or been able to compose herself, that would've been understandable. That Newf was HUGE! Meanwhile, the owner never came over to apologize.
Sometimes embarrassment can overtake manners...

I know when I go to one of my locals clubs monthly run thru nights, I always try to suggest it to others. I don't want to be seen as rude (I'd love to see their dogs win and progress) but often I just get a statement to the mind set of "it's not necessary" or "you know I just never even thought about that"

Loose dogs or dogs breaking the sit/down is always a possibility and it can be a frequent one.

Proof proof proof
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:20 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miranadobe View Post
I am still a novice, so I don't have any wisdom, just notes to remind myself later.
I found that my BH foundation was fantastic for our other work, so I'm interested in seeing what Asmit has to do differently. (will go read the thread later)

As for me, I'd go back and tell myself to stop complaining about all the heeling work. At the time I thought it was more pointless than worthwhile. Dummy me!

I would go back and tell myself to teach a kick-back/pop up stand rather than a step-forward.

I would go back and tell myself to do a better job correcting for fronts to present the clearest picture possible to the dog.

I would go back and learn the value of footwork earlier. I figured it out on my own later on, but I wonder if I could have shaved some point deductions by just using better footwork.

And this is where my foundation comes in -- because my first dog didn't have this as a young dog, and I can see so clearly how you can start at 5 weeks with a dog!!!!! and teach some of this so it is clearly second nature.

In the beginning I will create this all with food and my hands. I will form into a down, cuddle the back end into a tuck sit, lift gently for a stand. I also do straight fronts in between my legs, lure into heel, and a few baby steps of heads up IN POSITION. also working tricks (spin/twist/back up) - but what i want is my dogs to do this in the fashion i want it forever. I don't want to teach a free sit and have them rock back and then months later try to stop them. if my dogs EVER rock back, I immediately go back to their foundation and scoop them into a sit. I always want a back-down into a sphynx. I work and create these things for months so that they are second nature to the dog in precisely how i want them performed as adults.

not fair to reward at a crooked far away front just for coming, and then later nitpick.
not fair to reward rock back sits and then get on them for it.
not fair to reward for poor head position and then later try to get heads up (im fighting that with cherry and thats my fault!!!)

whether i want to just Q or want the highest titles out there, I think the foundation becomes the same because in the end it is up to the handler on how much they will put in to maintain and build on it - but the foundation makes everything so much easier.

and above all, THIS TEACHES A DOG TO THINK.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:21 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I just got a chance to revisit this thread. THANK YOU FOR THE GREAT suggestions!!
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:24 PM   #43 (permalink)
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And probably the third thing, which has already been stated, is make it fun, fun, fun! I don't think Lucy thinks obedience is fun... With Gidget I will work a lot harder to be more animated and energetic and hopefully make it more fun for her.
I'm chuckling. Have you heard any of my squeaky happy voice in training? people tease me, but the dogs love it
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:54 AM   #44 (permalink)
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That's the thing, I got G as a pet. I had no idea what competitive obedience was about, let alone that my dog could be capable of it, and forget about how to build any kind of foundation for competition!!!

I just adopted a pup from rescue and was pleased I had a good dog who was well-trained for every day life with lots of off-leash experiences.

Later on as we tried for the BH, we practiced in Rally for ring exposure. That led to Obed. Now back to Rally and Nationals. So, yep, I learned a lot on this dog, and a lot of what needs to be different for the next! Reading your post I have more to learn!
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