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Old 11-27-2012, 04:18 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Ok peoples I really need some help here, please

This:

FFSshowmehowyoudiditthen


The video looks great but really it's a sack of crap because it only shows the 'finished product' not how the hell to actually lure the dog into position from each position, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Please someone help me out here because I am quickly losing the faith!
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:29 PM   #2 (permalink)
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This guy has a series of videos...

Looks like they teach via the box method... I couldn't tell you how I taught Jones... not that his is great but he does know how to find the heel position...
part 1

Part 2
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:45 PM   #3 (permalink)
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This is FAR from competition obedience but I made a video to show a friend how to lure her dog into heel position just the basic heel position

flirt4 - YouTube

flirt3 - YouTube

flirt2 - YouTube
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:53 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I know that I worked with Ilka on leash when I was teaching pivots. I just started turning, telling her to heel, and rewarding her for staying in position. For left pivots, I would put the leash behind my back, just to keep her from forging too much. I think I might try this guy's way for teaching Leo. It looks interesting.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:09 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I start with luring, then lose the treat pretty quickly. Once your dog will follow your empty hand, and understands basics like sit/stay/down/etc. it's quite simple to move them into position. The end result would be something like "Doggy, come over here" and they go where you're motioning to.

It looks to me like what he's doing here is more proofing, as opposed to training initial behaviors. So, the dog understands that heel means xxxxx, ok, well now let's start changing positions, doing it from different places, etc. Just like we teach a dog "sit" in the quiet of our home, but if you want a reliable, instant sit under all conditions, you have to start upping the distraction, new locations, etc. Looks to me like this is what he's doing. Just like when working on commands, you want to vary the order, so your dog is responding to individual commands, as opposed to memorizing and order of commands, if that makes sense.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:09 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adara View Post
This is FAR from competition obedience but I made a video to show a friend how to lure her dog into heel position just the basic heel position

flirt4 - YouTube

flirt3 - YouTube

flirt2 - YouTube
Thanks.
How does one generalise that in the dogs head to going there from any position. I mean to that degree of perfection (?) maybe accuracy.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:15 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Thanks.
How does one generalise that in the dogs head to going there from any position. I mean to that degree of perfection (?) maybe accuracy.
The teaching is: When I say Heel, you go next to my leg and stay there until you get another command. It comes with practice, and repetition, and your dog understanding the command. Think of it this way, most people teach their dog to sit from a standing position. But once a dog truly understands that sit means "put your butt on the floor" they will go into that position from a down, from a stand, from across the room, etc. You introduce the variety so that sit means "putt your butt on the floor", as opposed to "putt your butt on the floor, but make sure you're standing first".

So in the case of getting your dog into heeling position from other places, it's a matter of your dog truly understanding that "heel" means "go here", and if your dog understands this, the rest is just a matter of putting him in the correct positioning, marking and rewarding.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:18 PM   #8 (permalink)
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You just have the dog come to heel from a variety of positions. Eventually, Heel means "Stay in position by my side, no matter what I'm doing" or it will mean "If you're not in position by my side, get there".
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinK View Post
The teaching is: When I say Heel, you go next to my leg and stay there until you get another command. It comes with practice, and repetition, and your dog understanding the command. Think of it this way, most people teach their dog to sit from a standing position. But once a dog truly understands that sit means "put your butt on the floor" they will go into that position from a down, from a stand, from across the room, etc. You introduce the variety so that sit means "putt your butt on the floor", as opposed to "putt your butt on the floor, but make sure you're standing first".

So in the case of getting your dog into heeling position from other places, it's a matter of your dog truly understanding that "heel" means "go here", and if your dog understands this, the rest is just a matter of putting him in the correct positioning, marking and rewarding.
Do you mean quite literally putting them in the correct position or luring them into it.
I have two problems on the go here:

1: I have never attempted to get this sort of accuracy before, my usual heel position is a relatively large area behind my left or right heel.
2: I am not sure if I am meant to be pure lureing them or correcting them into position.

The fault is purely mine, the dogs are trying so hard to interpret what I am trying to get them to do, they just start throwing out random behaviours once they are in the general area, like sitting downing spinning, jumping, going around me back into 'heel'
I just can't get them to understand I am trying to narrow down the correct 'heel' area/zone
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:41 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinK View Post
I start with luring, then lose the treat pretty quickly. Once your dog will follow your empty hand, and understands basics like sit/stay/down/etc. it's quite simple to move them into position. The end result would be something like "Doggy, come over here" and they go where you're motioning to.

It looks to me like what he's doing here is more proofing, as opposed to training initial behaviors. So, the dog understands that heel means xxxxx, ok, well now let's start changing positions, doing it from different places, etc. Just like we teach a dog "sit" in the quiet of our home, but if you want a reliable, instant sit under all conditions, you have to start upping the distraction, new locations, etc. Looks to me like this is what he's doing. Just like when working on commands, you want to vary the order, so your dog is responding to individual commands, as opposed to memorizing and order of commands, if that makes sense.

This post clashed with mine, thanks.
I have got to the stage of luring with an empty hand it is sorta getting the fine tuning for the stationary heel position I am having trouble with.
They go to a position which is pretty much the same all the time, but it's not the correct one, lolz, so then i can't get them to 'inch' forward its like all or nothing to them.
I hope that make sense grammatically and its meaning.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:48 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Once they get the hang of where "heel" is, you start asking for a more precision. For instance, if they are too far away, you get them to move closer, and reward the right position. Too far back, reward them after they move up. They start offering all kinds of other behaviors, tell them "no" (or whatever your negative marker is), and give the command again. If they still insist on not doing it, physically put them where you want them.
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Old 11-27-2012, 05:56 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Ah, this will be where I am going wrong then, because I am trying not to suppress their drive like I did before and nearly ruined them.

By the way, I tried the box thing a while back but all it did was serve to show me how crap I am at luring.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:06 PM   #13 (permalink)
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It's not like you beat on them to get them in postition. You either use the leash to guide them into position, or else grab their collar to guide them. Once they are in postition, they get a reward, so it is still a positive experience.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:11 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I am paranoid though now, because I didn't beat it out of them last time, I just "no'd" the drive out of them.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:26 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Okay, since you asked, here's David working with Gracie on "heel," which is the last thing taught in obedience (for IPO). He's been working with her on this for a couple of months, and I am sure will be working with her on it for months more.

The first month or so you'd see just what you're seeing here, except she would be along the fence. One of the free Michael Ellis videos shows that with a pup, only along a wall.

David discovered he needed larger treats to lure this, as she was chewing the skin inside his hand to get the goodies. He's now using larger chunks of diced chicken.

That he is not using the leash may be of interest.

I would sure recommend working with a trainer. I know that we learn more every week about what we're doing wrong, and it is very helpful. It takes us longer because, well, we're not professional trainers. Most of the work is getting us properly trained!

Click to play:
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:54 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I disagree that once the idea is there you then demand precision. I never want there to be any doubt what heel position is. In fact I reward that position in highly trained dogs nonstop throughout their career - heel position is the best position to ever be in. I cookie lure and never correct in heel position - it's always pleasurable. Chill is 1 an cherry is turning 2 and they still get cookies for getting into heel position - in fact the cookies helped me shape exactly where I want their head and attention. It's non negotiable for me and I always want the same picture. I won't reward something and then change what I expect.

Matt I still owe you videos for this. I will try to get some tonight.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:04 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I am paranoid though now, because I didn't beat it out of them last time, I just "no'd" the drive out of them.
Okay, it's not like you "no" them to death, either. You tell them what to do (something they already know), they do something else, it's "no, that's not what I said", and you guide them into what you wanted. It's not they try to do something new, and you keep telling them "no", because it's not as precise as you want.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:31 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doberkim View Post
I disagree that once the idea is there you then demand precision. I never want there to be any doubt what heel position is. In fact I reward that position in highly trained dogs nonstop throughout their career - heel position is the best position to ever be in. I cookie lure and never correct in heel position - it's always pleasurable. Chill is 1 an cherry is turning 2 and they still get cookies for getting into heel position - in fact the cookies helped me shape exactly where I want their head and attention. It's non negotiable for me and I always want the same picture. I won't reward something and then change what I expect.

Matt I still owe you videos for this. I will try to get some tonight.
I think I'm confused. Do you demand a perfectly straight, balanced sit at heel the first time from a dog who is just learning what heel means, or they don't get a reward? What if they go to heel quickly, and then sit a few inches crooked? Is that rewarded, do you correct the postition, or do you just ignore that, and make them do it again and again, until they are absolutely straight? Isn't there the risk of the dog thinking "well, I never get rewarded for anything, so why bother doing it?".

Ilka is 3, and still gets goodies for going to heel, or for coming in to a front.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:59 PM   #19 (permalink)
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When you are teaching the flip or walk aroud to heel position and they do it 'well' while you are fading the lure, it is normal that the dog might sit crooked. Rather than withholding reward, put your hand with treat between thumb and pointer(the 'pit') and lure them straight. Possibly taking another step. They should be able to smell and touch the pod in your cupped hand, but you don't fully release it until they are in the correct position. Release it at the moment you are happy with it
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:23 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary View Post
I think I'm confused. Do you demand a perfectly straight, balanced sit at heel the first time from a dog who is just learning what heel means, or they don't get a reward? What if they go to heel quickly, and then sit a few inches crooked? Is that rewarded, do you correct the postition, or do you just ignore that, and make them do it again and again, until they are absolutely straight? Isn't there the risk of the dog thinking "well, I never get rewarded for anything, so why bother doing it?".

Ilka is 3, and still gets goodies for going to heel, or for coming in to a front.
ive had a couple of members message me here and on facebook. and the gist of how i train is, i make my dogs right as often as possible. my dogs learn how to be wrong, believe me - making mistakes are not big deals. but in terms of heel position and how i want them to be - i make that right. i dont work incorrect position, i dont let them be wrong in the beginning.

yes, i want perfect heel position from the very start. my dogs learn how i want it from day one, and thats the way to earn a reward. if they go crooked, sit too far back, they learn how to fix themselves into heel position.
being wrong isn't a terrible thing - i lure them into the correct position, i break them out with a "touch" to retry, i restart. my dogs learn that its ok to keep trying, and its ok to keep working on the same behavior to get it right.

but for me, i try as hard as possible to NOT REWARD ANYTHING BUT EXACTLY WHAT I WANT. and for setting up in heel position, as i said, this is something i reward heavily for life. in part also because i want a very animated heel position and a very animated set up (i call it "get close")- so i need to practice that repeatedly until its second nature - my dogs think there is an invisible leash that when i put my hand up, they jump. and 9 times out of 10, there is a cookie there! i reward for just jumping up and back still too, even in dogs that have been setting up since they were 8 weeks old (5 weeks for chill).

it might be easiest if i should you how i train.

but to answer your questions -
Do you demand a perfectly straight, balanced sit at heel the first time from a dog who is just learning what heel means, or they don't get a reward? yup
What if they go to heel quickly, and then sit a few inches crooked?
i teach them to tuck their butts in. i break them out and try again. i draw them out of heel and start over.
Is that rewarded,never
do you correct the postition, - i correct the position -by fixing it. not a correctio.
or do you just ignore that, it is ignored, simply because its not rewarded. why do things i dont reward?
and make them do it again and again, i just trained my dogs for 20 minutes on one single behavior. in fact, you can hear the others barking to work in the background, and cherry's two videos are first and last respectively in the order - she actually got HAPPIER in the second video, IMO.
until they are absolutely straight? Isn't there the risk of the dog thinking "well, I never get rewarded for anything, so why bother doing it?".
i have multiple ways to reward my dog, and the lack of a tangible food reward isn't a problem for my dogs once they learn that if you KEEP TRYING, you will get the reward. in this video my dogs get verbal praise, physical praise, chill gets a toy (they are all over the floor, he chose to play), as well as food.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:24 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Okay, Asmit, that is what I would consider "correcting" a position. Kind of like "nice try, lets get a bit better, though" kind of correction, as opposed to a "hey, that was wrong" kind of correction.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:31 PM   #22 (permalink)
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most of these are cherrybomb simply because she needs the most work.
some of our new criterion is really, id like her to keep her feet off my arm when she jumps up so we work on that and i heavily reward her in the videos when she jumps up high and DOESNT touch me.

Cb get close - YouTube

you can see in that video i think the third set up she sets up butt crooked. no cookie reward - first i ask to tuck the butt in, its still not enough. then i have her scoot forward - thats right. reward. the one after that she touches my arm WAY too much - tell her off, start that over again. the one after that is perfect - high up, doesnt touch, and ends up straight. then we work tuck(that set up has no jump, but she set up in perfect heel) - i need to eliminate and work on not rewarding any time she throws her head out when tucking it in.

Cb tuck - YouTube
this video is just her working on her tuck. you can see at some point she gets distracted by a cat running past - and looks back at me and totally forgets we are tucking. this isnt a correction- i laugh, she jumps - but not rewarded. she's still thinking about the cat and then she cant get close while being straight - i ask and she wags her tail, so i break her out into in front of me. try again, next one is perfect pretty much (Though a little far out).


other dogs coming up next.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:44 PM   #23 (permalink)
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i did berlin as well, and i can share her video if you all want but she's a special circumstance - she's 1) trained 2) not currently in training 3) got wobblers so she cant jump as well on this surface and she overcorrects for her backend sometimes now so she ends up butt out or butt in - so i never worry about her anymore.

here is chill tho
Chill close and tuck - YouTube
the first times i am just rewarding for the first parts - the jump up, the going behind. i even tell him "get it get it get it" - the word "get" to my dogs means jump if my hand is raised. you can see he does a double jump because the hand is still up, and i am rewarding him BEHIND me (you cant tell depth here)
we then go into "doodling" and me really trying to encourage him to engage his hind end in the left to get back in - he had a lot of trouble learning tuck. how i started is how i would get a dog that i wanted in heel but not a jump - i just lure the dog back with head up into heel position (the "get close" is always a jump into sitting). after he tugs he sets up, then he's crooked - i have him back up into correct position.

then we go back to cherry.
Cb part 2 - YouTube
in the beginning you can see that she's trying to back into heel without her jump- which will also make her slightly out of position. i move so she cant get in and try to restart her by luring her in front. that next get close is straight and nice but too far away - regret rewarding that, but then again she's rarely wide on that, most of my dogs are too close. the next one i reward just the jump, she's still far out, so i make her fix that by getting back and then scooting up. the next two are cute, then she cheats and scoots back in, and is again crooked. no reward, i make her scoot back. for dobes and long dogs, i want them to go BEHIND me beacuse otherwise they flip shallow and end up butt out - you can see the next one is great because she double hops it! i end on that



incidentally for matt, that is the extent of my training sessions for my dogs today cherry got about 5 minutes, chill got 2.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:49 PM   #24 (permalink)
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my only negative for me is that this is all off leash - mostly because i had just brought them in from the yard. i should take my advice and do it on leash. also if i raise my hand up and my dogs dont jump they get a collar 'pop' for not moving with the hand. lazy kim.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:52 PM   #25 (permalink)
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This:

The video looks great but really it's a sack of crap because it only shows the 'finished product' not how the hell to actually lure the dog into position from each position, grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Please someone help me out here because I am quickly losing the faith!
workingonheelpositionings


Here is a game I play when going from 'the dog understand how to go around to heel position from straight in front of you'. Michael ellis does it. Calls it 'find the leg'. You move in different spots, call the dog to heel, and the dog has to figure out where heel is no matter what distance or angle you are from him.

Two comments on the video: First, its dark now, garage is full, and light in the yard is bad, so I literally had to move furniture to get enough space. Haha sorry I had limited room. Second, I was using cheese that was processed and everytime I fed him, he ate weird, made weird faces, and contorted his body. Good to know that he does not like processed cheese! And third, we were working on tricks from a distance last night. As you can see, he is thinking about waving everytime I walk away from the sit. This is why he keeps moving his left front paw.

FTR, I don't require the exact precision that say Kim does. I'm not competing in AKC or even competing for that matter. Zeus is still in the process of learning how to fix himself and move his butt, so I reward for progress. I also did not teach him how to heel via luring, so occasionally when I try to 'correct' him by luring, he is thrown off. I will try to get one of the younger dobes later. They are still in the process of learning exactly where heel is, more so than Zeus. And we expect more of them.
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