Rosemary

Ugh. Ilka jumping up on me (or anyone else) like Cherry and Chill are doing is one thing I absolutely hate, and strongly discourage. To each their own, I guess.

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doberkim

chill jumps up once - when he brings me the toy. both dogs bring all toys to my hand to ask to tug - for chill, he has to come up a leg to do so. for all retrieves with the db right now, he comes up when asked.

cherry also comes up, mostly when asked (you can see me pat my chest asking her to come up, and i say "up up" for her to do so. yes she sometimes jumps up without asking, but for the most part she's very good about it. yes she is bouncy when we train, but thats because dogs go down when they show. i need as much energy as they can bring into the picture when we train, and for ALL my dogs jumping is a stress release (just like barking) - you see me ask for barking and i ask for jumping because she loves it. in fact, i use touch fly and bounce as jumping commands for stationary lifts. when berlin was trained with bridget carlsen's method, her 'effort' was a lift.

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Matt Vandart

Awesome replies,thanks.
I look forward to that vid Asmit.
I think part of the problem is being new to lureing, both me and the dogs
Obviously I use lures to teach sit, down, even heel but it is the level of precision I am asking of them and myself.
I think all this is a defining factor between an adequate trainer and an excellent trainer.

Matt Vandart

wow:

wow

doberkim

Then you need to be rewarding faster and exactly where you want them. All my dogs had a lure in the video. And part of your dogs response is due to how to trained them - you very repetitively had them go to approximate heel them down sit down sit.

Dogs do exactly what they are trained to do.
I don't fade any lure until I have a perfect behavior. If they aren't in the correct position why would they ever get there without a lure ? You're moving too fast. If you take the lure away why should it be any different than what it was before ?

You want a closer heel position that is more exact ? Get food in there and lure them into the position you want reward when correct and withhold when Wrong. And do that for months if you want any degree of perfection. Stop jumping to no lure if the behavior isn't where you want it.

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Matt Vandart

I see what you are saying Kim and not doubting it in any way just saying that according to what I have read about animal behaviour, random reinforcement works better than continual reinforcement
what is your and anyone else take on that?

doberkim

I don't switch to random reinforcement until i have created the behavior i want.

is your dog supposed to GUESS about where heel position truly is?
they are already guessing about what you want them to do (down, sit, etc) nd they are wrong.

i will make my dogs RIGHT until they understand completely what is expected of them. your dogs have no idea at this point.

i dont go to VR until my dogs (via CR) know without a doubt what is correct and what is incorrect.


if i start to fade a lure before the dogs know what is expected, how am i supposed to get them there?

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Asmit

If you are luring them correctly they are not truly getting continually reinforced. You let them have the treat when they are in the position you want.

I agree with her about it. I do not start 'randomly' rewarding until a behavior is finished. And even then it's not exactly random.

doberkim

put it this way. for most things, i wont remove reinforcement until i am ready to correct. i wont correct until i am sure that my dog 100% knows what was expected. i have to have some recourse for my dog failing to perform when food is not present. so i need to make sure they are correct. in some instances, i make them correct - i wont heel out of position, i wont heel without the head position i want - if i lose it, i stop heeling.

some of these behaviors are very complex based on tiny little pieces - i often go back to the tiny pieces and reward and reinforce those to make sure the end result is good. dogs dont often just do one thing over and over again without reinforcement of some sort, in some manner. if my finish breaks down, i need to go back to the hop up, the turn behind, the coming in straight with head up - all the little tiny pieces that make up my whole behavior.

i think about the tiny little parts, instead of the whole lumped behavior. in some ways that likely belies my start as a clicker trainer, but i absolutely am NOT pure positive - but all my dogs are clicker savvy and have a foundation in that.

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doberkim

i also evaluate performances - how successful was i? in a session of 20 finishes, did my dog do 80% of them correctly? 90% what about if i lower my help and do a smaller cue - does my rate stay the same?

i wont progress if my DOG isnt.

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Adara

This is another game we play. And again I want to reiterate I don't compete in obedience so you guys may want something way more accurate. I also made these for the same friend who is starting competition obedience. This is just the choose to heel game. I'm not luring either dog. Havoc had never done it before so I made it easier. Flirt has played the game about 20 times? Because of my neck issues I use the WRONG hand to reward and reach across my body also. Basically you reward when the dog is in the correct position. They "choose" to get in heel position.

start heel - YouTube

choose to heel - YouTube

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Matt Vandart

cool thanks, that's sorta how I have taught them didn't know it had a name, lolz.

GrdnDelite

Everything Kim has said and shown!

David is training his first dog and you will often see him moving when the dog ought be. That's why we work with a trainer; to get to be good enough to train our dogs. It takes a lot of practice, and David is working on it. I'm stunned and delighted both with his performance and Gracie's, to date.

The breaking down into the wee bits and doing them again and again, over time, makes a huge difference in final results, IMO.

Rosemary, Kim stated she is rewarding jumping up without touching her; a very useful skill for a large dog to have (and one I taught our pit bull from the start). A dog that does the jump up finish is stunning to watch, though, and it appears to me that is what Kim is teaching. (I was in a class with a Puli that finished like that once; defy you not to giggle every single time!)

Matt, the trick is to always encourage, never be heavy-handed or angry, and be careful to only reward what you want. They learn quickly and will develop movements you later have to retrain in order to correct if they are ever rewarded for them. "Nope" means try again. You want the dog to always be thinking, and to always be certain there'll be a goody at some point, so that they will continue to work at giving you what you want. To them, it's a game, and that's how you want them to continue to feel about it. "Oh, happy day! It's the get the goody game! All I have to do is figure out what the human wants, and I get the goody!"

The other hard part is to stop when the dog has it right, before the dog starts to get bored, before the dog gets tired. You want to stop while the dog has a "win."

I can't remember who on DT posted that they don't work for free and therefore do not expect their dogs to do so, but that is how I also feel. Don't be afraid to be giving out goodies, even when others are proudly proclaiming they've trained without them.

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Matt Vandart

Check this vid:

shite

I thought I was doing alright but looking at the vid it's shite.
I can see many things I am doing wrong here.
Including reinforcing in the wrong place, bad voice cueing, bad positioning, my attitude sucks, jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeebus.

On a more successful note, the hand she is licking at the end is the dude she bit!

Sorry about the wacky ass lighting and crappy radio

GrdnDelite

Thank you, Matt! Is it not totally amazing what we can learn from our own training videos?

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Asmit

Hey you're gettin better at that! Haha. One thing I'd add besides te obvious issues, is that you shoul really use a release word. At first, your asking the dog to heel then randomly allowing her to not heel while you go get treats. The dog then doesn't understand that heel means 'heel until he tells me otherwise'. It then means, I heel until he loses interest or until I feel like stopping. I think you can see your own mistakes for the most part

Matt Vandart

I know my brain goes blank when I turn the camera on, I would be useless in a trial

Matt Vandart

tug

She just didn't want to come back to me today