Obedience Thread

[doberkim]

For Cherry I am simply bringing food back and restarting her like a baby - she is not looking forward, but slightly turned and looking more toward my hand on my stomach. if she puts her head higher, I will not NOT reward it, but i wont require it for her.

in the ring the only requirement is to stay with me - for cherry there is a chance i will lose all and any attention if she is stressed. but no matter what she needs to stay with me - nowhere in obedience does it state she needs to make eye contact and i dont get extra points. but if i dont expect more from her in training she wont ever EVER give it to me in the ring - so if shes stressed or distracted i already know she drops her head, but she never loses heel position. so ill push for as much as i can get but know like with most dogs, ill get less in the ring. its why i require jumping on every finish, every set up. i want MORE effort in training so i get 75% of that in the ring.

[Rosemary]

I'm wondering which do you (collective) think is harder to achieve, an OTCh or a UDX? For those unfamilar with AKC obedience, here is an excerpt from the regulations regarding each title.

For Obedience Trial Champion:
"Section 1. Dogs that May Compete. Obedience Trial Championship
points will be recorded for dogs that have earned the Utility Dog title.
When a dog earns the Obedience Trial Champion title, it may continue
to compete and earn points.

Section 2. Championship Points. Obedience Trial Championship
points will be recorded for those dogs that have earned a first, second,
third or fourth place ribbon competing in the Open B or Utility B class,
according to the schedule of points established by the AKC Board of
Directors. When counting the number of eligible dogs in competition,
a dog that is disqualified or excused from the ring by the judge will not
be included.
Requirements for the Obedience Trial Champion are as follows:
The dog must have won:
1. 100 points
2. A first place in Utility B with at least three dogs in competition
3. A first place in Open B with at least six dogs in competition
4. An additional first place under the conditions of 2 or 3 above
5. All three first places under three different judges
Only one of the required first places may have been won at a specialty
show."
Then follows tables showing how many dogs need to be beaten to earn points, rather like Ch. point tables.

For Utility Dog Excellent:
"Section 1. Dogs That May Compete. UDX scores will be recorded
only for dogs that have earned Utility Dog titles. Dogs who already have
the UDX title may continue to compete in Open B and Utility B.
To earn a Utility Dog Excellent title, the dog must have received
qualifying scores in both Open B and Utility B at 10 separate licensed
or member obedience trials.

Section 2. Utility Dog Excellent Title. The AKC will issue a Utility
Dog Excellent certificate and will permit the use of the letters UDX following
the name of each dog that meets these requirements.
The letters UDX will be followed by a numeric designation indicating
the number of times a dog has met the requirements of the UDX title as
defined in the regulations. (UDX2 for 20 qualifying scores, UDX3 for
30 qualifying scores, UDX4 for 40 qualifying scores, etc.)"

I mean, either title is tough, but not every OTCh is a UDX, and not every UDX is an OTCh.

[WorkingDobie]

Personally I think an OTCH would be much harder to achieve.

Both are very difficult and you need a very consistent dog to be successful in either.

The difference is a dog that gets mediocre scores and is consistent can earn a UDX. For a dog to earn an OTCH it has to be consistent as well as extremely accurate.

The amount of OTCH points earned for a win is determined on how many dogs are competing and almost twice as many points are given for a Utility win vs an Open win.



If you live in an area that has a lot of competitive handlers (and they all go to the same shows) You will need to score consistently above 197 to have a chance to even earn any points.

I was actually at a show where there were ten dogs entered in Open B, two dogs tied with scores of 200, there was a runoff and the dog that won got 2 OTCH points the runner up got 0.

I feel confident that I can eventually get a UDX but I'll have to see if we are ever able to get to the level to really be competetive with the OTCH folks, as many have been competing for as long as 30 years.

[Rosemary]

Hmm, I've always thought that getting a UDX might be harder. The thing with the OTCh is that, once you get the required first places in Open and Utility, you could concentrate on whichever class you dog is more consistant in. For example, if you know your dog has trouble with Open, but usually scores well in Utility, you could get most of your points in Utility. For a UDX, your dog has to be, if not brilliant, then at least reliable in both classes.

And as for you dog needing to be a consistantly high scorer, I've seen classes where first place was in the 180's. Heck I've seen classes of 10+ dogs, and every single one NQ'd.

[alwayshadpets]

Workingdobe[quote]
f you live in an area that has a lot of competitive handlers (and they all go to the same shows) You will need to score consistently above 197 to have a chance to even earn any points.

I was actually at a show where there were ten dogs entered in Open B, two dogs tied with scores of 200, there was a runoff and the dog that won got 2 OTCH points the runner up got 0.

I feel confident that I can eventually get a UDX but I'll have to see if we are ever able to get to the level to really be competetive with the OTCH folks, as many have been competing for as long as 30 years.[quote]

You sound like you live where I do. Very competitive here.

[alwayshadpets]

[quote=alwayshadpets;1229006]Workingdobe[quote]
f you live in an area that has a lot of competitive handlers (and they all go to the same shows) You will need to score consistently above 197 to have a chance to even earn any points.

I was actually at a show where there were ten dogs entered in Open B, two dogs tied with scores of 200, there was a runoff and the dog that won got 2 OTCH points the runner up got 0.

I feel confident that I can eventually get a UDX but I'll have to see if we are ever able to get to the level to really be competetive with the OTCH folks, as many have been competing for as long as 30 years.

You sound like you live where I do. Very competitive here.

I know a lot of the hard core OB folks would not like it, but I think there should be another class for the Otch handlers to move on too.
A lot of the upcoming Obedience handlers coming up, really do not stand a chance and they quit. Perhaps thats why numbers are down for Obedience. Its just not thriving like it used to. Just my 2cents.

[Rosemary]

Originally Posted by alwayshadpets

I know a lot of the hard core OB folks would not like it, but I think there should be another class for the Otch handlers to move on too.
A lot of the upcoming Obedience handlers coming up, really do not stand a chance and they quit. Perhaps thats why numbers are down for Obedience. Its just not thriving like it used to. Just my 2cents.

Maybe something like a C division? Same classes, Open and Utility, but have A, B, and C? Dogs with either an OTCh or UDX would be required to compete in C only? I know they's already added a lot of classes in the last few years, what with the Optional Titling classes like BN, GN, GO, and Versitility, and they are adding "Pre" classes later on this year. http://images.akc.org/pdf/events/obe...ew_Classes.pdf

[WorkingDobie]

Originally Posted by Rosemary

Hmm, I've always thought that getting a UDX might be harder. The thing with the OTCh is that, once you get the required first places in Open and Utility, you could concentrate on whichever class you dog is more consistant in. For example, if you know your dog has trouble with Open, but usually scores well in Utility, you could get most of your points in Utility. For a UDX, your dog has to be, if not brilliant, then at least reliable in both classes.

And as for you dog needing to be a consistantly high scorer, I've seen classes where first place was in the 180's. Heck I've seen classes of 10+ dogs, and every single one NQ'd.

I think you have brought up some valid points. My outlook is probably skewed because I've always competed in a highly competitive region. I have heard of competitors that have earned their OTCH by traveling to trials where the competition is not as stiff. Unfortunatly here it is not uncommomn to see a dog with a UDX5 and above without an OTCH. Usually half the dogs I will be competing against already have an OTCH and are just racking up points.

[WorkingDobie]

I agree with both of you that there should be another class for the people that already have their OTCH such as some type of Masters class. That would probably require the AKC to re-evaluate the point schedule, but it would cetainly give the more novice handlers such as myself more incentive to continue to compete past a UDX should I ever get one. I'm sure that is why they added the Master Obedience title so we can earn something while striving for a UDX or OTCH.

[alwayshadpets]

Originally Posted by WorkingDobie

I agree with both of you that there should be another class for the people that already have their OTCH such as some type of Masters class. That would probably require the AKC to re-evaluate the point schedule, but it would cetainly give the more novice handlers such as myself more incentive to continue to compete past a UDX should I ever get one. I'm sure that is why they added the Master Obedience title so we can earn something while striving for a UDX or OTCH.

Wouldn`t that be exciting to watch. The best going against the best.
As it stands now, a lot of handlers just won`t go on.

[Rosemary]

WorkingDobie, I do agree that some dogs, while steady and consistant enough to ge the double Q's required for the UDX, might not be "brillliant" or "flashy" enough to get the required first places for the OTCh. It is pretty competitive where I am. A lot of the dogs that show in my area were at the NOI.

The last cluster I went to (five trials in all), one trial had a run-off for HIT with both dogs having a 200. Another trial, the HC had a total of 399 (199.5 x 2), and HIT trial had a 200. The lowest HIT was 199.0 and the lowest HC was 392.5.

Did I mention that Ilka's highest (only) score at that trial was a 177.5 in Novice A? We did manage to get our RE, though.

[Rosemary]

If I thought it would do any good, I'd bang my head againt the wall. Somebody, not mentioning any names here, but SOMEBODY (who just so happens to be female and black and white), forgot what the heck an automatic sit is.

Between that, and the fact the she got up on the long down to go to the other dog, we NQ'd.

On the bright side, she passed the CGC with flying colors. I know she's already passed once, but I wanted to see if she could pass again in a more stressful situation, and she was fine.

One more chance for a Q tomorrow in Novice. I really hope we make it, 'cause I'd love to have that CD. I would be kinda sad to retire her with only 2/3 of it, but that's what I'll do if we don't Q tomorrow.

[ellenm]

I hope to contribute to this thread this year.

I've spent a few hours today gathering info on 2013 trials with good judges for Cheers in Utility, good venues and dates that work for me with other family obligations. I hope to get her UD this year, or retire her after a good try at it.

Geesh- several all breed shows here in VA have decided to not do Obed along with breed. I usually do the 4 day Concord, NC late March cluster, and that has obedience on the weekend only. I like to be able to take a conformation dog to a show (Jules this year) and then also compete with somebody else (Wally and Cheers).
I may just have to show more sporadically with 2-3 in my group this year.

Wally is just about ready to debut in Open. Need a few more matches and proofing opportunities for him. He's my steady one. Just learns quickly, and quite often sleeps on a new skill, and has it nailed the next time I ask him for it. He's the one I have to pump up to be silly and a bit wild- wild for him is bouncing around, leash tug, and a dash or two between my legs. Honestly, Wally is the easiest dog I've raised and/or trained. His attitude is I can do that, or I will try that...or if I ask him not to do something- okay Mom I will not do that ever again!

Cheers has gone out a few times in Utility A and is feeling the pressure of the judge hovering so close in everything. She's almost Q'd twice with near misses on an article. I am working on keeping her calm, happy and focused. She understands every exercise and happily does them as long as judge is standing in one place, rather than following us around (which of course they do!) She shows her stress by marching through the articles the first time, stopping to stare at the judge, then turning to the pile and bringing me the correct one. Article 2 she's usually totally on her game. Her favorite exercise is go outs as that involves galloping 40 feet away from the judge- happy dance from Cheers when she jumps on the way back! I have a game plan for Cheers that involves a particular warm up, multi day venues are better as she gets familiar with the place, and women judges are required- the smaller and older the better!

To mix things up, I entered Cheers in Rally Novice a few weeks ago- got coached over the phone as I've never done any Rally- and we got 2 legs of her RN! She was happy but a bit confused with Rally since all on lead, why was I talking, what is with this come front walk around your dog stuff? She was waiting to finish rather than have me walk around her. It's been a long time since I've done the basic stuff and she seemed to enjoy it. I messed up one station the first day, so we got a 89 and then a 98 the second day with 2 bumps (360 spin left- she wants to sit and pivot like for gloves so I have to talk and move fast) and a bump on serpentine cones which she thought was a figure 8 so a bump in the middle. All in all, a fun day for her. If a Utility title does not happen, she may have all her Rally titles by the end of the year!

I enjoy having two dogs to train and compete. I wear one dog out! Julian is dog #3, but as a baby dog, does not count as he's just in beginner stages of everything. He just plays short games every day. He loves to retrieve, does a good wait for anything- but loves to sit/wait and dash to a target across the yard. Baby stays are in the kitchen so far with no distractions. I have found that slow and steady work when these guys are young dogs seems to bring fast results later. I don't ask a ton of my young dogs, but do want them wild with happiness to get out there and train. They jump for joy when they see my training bags get pulled out.

That is a my long winded 2013 plan. I will update as things progress for my group and hope to hear of other DT'ers training and trialing successes.

[Rosemary]

No Q. She got up on the sit. I think she had already failed heeling, too (where, oh where, is that sit?). Oh, well. She's come a long way for a dog that got dumped as a four month old puppy. Plus, like someone told me, I probably couldn't have gotten a more difficult "first" obedience dog if I tried.

On to BH training, and continue with tracking training whether we get the BH or not (she loves tracking). Also, I will be taking her to some CATs this year. Getting to run and chase thing? Yeah, that sounds right up her alley.

And on to Leo's training. She's been on the "back burner" as I've worked with Ilka, but now it's time to step up her training. I'm shooting for her ready for a BN and RN in October (nice cluster of trials in Rayne, LA). Also, I need to keep up her tracking.

[noodlerubyallie]

For Rocket, I'm re-training myself, and him, on our enthusiasm. He knows HOW to do all the exercises in Novice, but he doesn't do them to the level I find acceptable, or that I want to present to a judge. So, I'm trying a different way to build that enthusiasm on heeling which seems to be really working. With him, it's all about being silly, so I'm learning how to "talk" to him in the ring and reinforce what I want. He's so different from Ruby the Workhorse that I've had to go at things from a completely different angle. I like what I'm seeing, so I'm thinking we'll be on our way to that CD this year.

We're also working a lot on our teamwork, so I can start building a solid foundation in agility as well.

[Asmit]

I've had some SIGNIFICANT changes in my plans for Zeus now. Many health related etc, but I'm officially preparing him to do AKC obedience.

We're hoping to be get a UD by next year! But this is dependent on how many shows are around here and I am able to attend. Considering we have to get 3 q's in novice and open before doing utility, that might be easier said than done.

So......tonight we worked on the 'glove' exercise. I had done so much work with the forced retrieve for schutzhund, that I had to rewire Zeus for the glove. By the end of the session he was extremely happy and willing to bring it to me and also hold it without flinging it around his head. I only had a pair of two white gloves so I only had to direct him to one with two out there instead of three, but he did well!

Now I need to order an AKC dumbbell, and the metal ones..... we've got the drop on recall and directed jumps, but I haven't done the broad jump with him ever so I'll try that this weekend.

The only thing I haven't proofed and am a bit lost on is the stand for exam. If he is walking or standing I can say stay and he'll freeze in a standing position, but I feel VERY insecure as to whether he actually knows if I really want him to stand or not. He seems a bit 'confused' in a stand with me walking behind him and someone else coming towards him, since in schutzhund the only stand is a moving stand and recall. Idk, guess we need to work on that!

The local kennel club is hosting an obedience run-thru day in two weeks. I'm definitely going to take Zeus and run him through Novice class. Will either take Drama in the beginner novice (but will not do the sit with recall) or Argo in the same. Neither of those two will be competing in AKC but they need more trial setting experience.

I will try to get pictures


Also. Have been using Michael Ellis's system for teaching the retrieve to Argo. I am REALLY liking it. Two weeks ago he would've spit the PVC pipe out and had a complete meltdown. Now, he is reliably taking and holding calmly/firmly the piece of PVC. There is a little bit of pressure involved, but overall he is very happy and eager to do it. I like it alot!!

Argo also has his Voraus with a perfect platz now He officially 'got it' this weekend and I don't think I stopped smiling all weekend. That on top of his awesome tracking saturday says that his IPO 1 is actually gonna happen.

Oh the feeling when your training and hard work finally starts coming together.... So excited with what this year holds for me and all three of the dobie-children!! Love my dogs, love my sports!

[the_discowhore]

Yay go Zeus! Can't wait to hear how it all goes!

We are 3 nights away from going to the tracking & working trials seminar, going to be SO FUN!

[ellenm]

Asmit-

Word to the wise- mix up regular recall with the drop on recall or they start "auto dropping" midway since Dobes are so smart. That is an NQ. They also might start slowing their recall since they know they have to down 1/2 way. This is also a normal training step so don't panic if he starts an auto drop. I do 2-3 regular recalls to every drop on recall. I teach the drop as NOT part of a recall at first, then add it to a recall.

Get the CD before you really get him to do the moving stand for Utility. Otherwise you get a dog who stands for sits during heeling if confused. That's 3 or 4 points off for a no sit. Also, the stand for exam requires an auto finish to heel position not front. A young dog may start doing auto finishes for a lot of exercises if they really don't understand the word "front" from "heel". Yes, that's more points off for a no front on a recall for example.
The judge in Utility will be next to you (on dog's left) as you walk forward, you tell dog stay as you keep moving, and then you have to be 10' in front of dog facing the dog. Judge walks with you at first in front of dog, then approaches left shoulder, does the whole exam, including down front and hind legs. Judge stands behind your dog and says "call your dog" for dog to return to heel position. Some judges will stand with a foot in between dog's hind legs. I practice someone standing this way and saying call your dog a few times to proof the dog staying until I call him/her in.

AKC obedience at higher levels is tough, especially Utility, as any small mistake is an NQ.
Personally the Open class is my favorite level as it is fun for both me and the dog. Out of sight stays can be crazy depending on the line up of dogs in the ring with you but the working routine in the ring has a nice flow. I like training the Utility skills and if I could put Cheers and Rex together- have her be a pinch hitter for go outs- I'd have a HIT dog for Utility! (He could do her moving stand and signals!)

Good luck and let us know how your journey goes with Zeus.

[Asmit]

Originally Posted by ellenm

Asmit-

Word to the wise- mix up regular recall with the drop on recall or they start "auto dropping" midway since Dobes are so smart. That is an NQ. They also might start slowing their recall since they know they have to down 1/2 way. This is also a normal training step so don't panic if he starts an auto drop. I do 2-3 regular recalls to every drop on recall. I teach the drop as NOT part of a recall at first, then add it to a recall.

Get the CD before you really get him to do the moving stand for Utility. Otherwise you get a dog who stands for sits during heeling if confused. That's 3 or 4 points off for a no sit. Also, the stand for exam requires an auto finish to heel position not front. A young dog may start doing auto finishes for a lot of exercises if they really don't understand the word "front" from "heel". Yes, that's more points off for a no front on a recall for example.
The judge in Utility will be next to you (on dog's left) as you walk forward, you tell dog stay as you keep moving, and then you have to be 10' in front of dog facing the dog. Judge walks with you at first in front of dog, then approaches left shoulder, does the whole exam, including down front and hind legs. Judge stands behind your dog and says "call your dog" for dog to return to heel position. Some judges will stand with a foot in between dog's hind legs. I practice someone standing this way and saying call your dog a few times to proof the dog staying until I call him/her in.

AKC obedience at higher levels is tough, especially Utility, as any small mistake is an NQ.
Personally the Open class is my favorite level as it is fun for both me and the dog. Out of sight stays can be crazy depending on the line up of dogs in the ring with you but the working routine in the ring has a nice flow. I like training the Utility skills and if I could put Cheers and Rex together- have her be a pinch hitter for go outs- I'd have a HIT dog for Utility! (He could do her moving stand and signals!)

Good luck and let us know how your journey goes with Zeus.

When I was looking up the exercises, that is the first thing I thought about. Because of all of the voraus training we did for the IPO, his down in motion is extremely solid. I don't think I'm gonna hardly ever practice it on the recall. It is the same idea with the voraus, if you start sending them to down too much then they lose speed and begin downing on their own.

He is very solid with everything he knows, luckily. I do have other dogs that I wouldn't even think about trying with yet lol. He also doesn't think he needs me very much overall and his out of sight stays are pretty reliable.

I'm definitely going to have to ask my trainer for some help with the stands! I would not trust him to be ok with that!

Thanks for the tips! I'll update after our little show run-thru in February. No actual competitions around here happening in the next month or so.

[Asmit]

So officially one more day until our obedience mock trial. I didn't realize it is actually judged for scores etc, so I decided to actually train zeus for the first time in uhhhh months almost. All I've done with him in the past month or so is work on the retrieve (which is of course not even needed for novice obedience).

I mentioned in my previous post not yet having the 'stand for exam'.....Well, just like my classes, I officially procrastinated and taught him that tonight. We will see how "teaching the day before" goes LOL I'm 95% sure he is just going to sit down when the judge comes up to him. It was quite difficult teaching him that stand still meant stand if I walked behind his back. I've done that in sits/downs, but in schutzhund, walking around the back is never done (outside of training atleast; some people still train it for the sake of teaching the dog down means down regardless of where I am) so he is used to me returning to his right side straight into heel position.

I've also never done a recall from a sit until tonight. It has been burned into my head to never teach a schutzhund dog to do that, so I literally cringed when I said it. It still hurts to think about

I'm about worried about what drama's going to do. She has some stranger danger and I really don't think she's going to let the judge come up to her. I didn't know there was a judge until today, so oops on my part. As long as she doesn't bite him (hoping its a woman) I'll be content! Jk, I wouldn't put her in the ring if I thought she'd actually bite someone. I also hope she doesn't stop while doing the figure 8 to poke people. She thinks that is how she is supposed to greet people.....by poking. Or if you're lucky she'll frisk you for treats then bark at you if you don't give her any.

Anyways, now I get to join the 'special dog club'. Wahoo. Taking my SO along so should have video or pictures.

[the_discowhore]

Good luck! I worry about Elsie poking people during figure of 8 as well... Curious dogs! She always tries to knock over the first sign on a rally course, even though she has totally seen them a million times before.

[Sam1491]

Good luck Asmit,

I've officially given up on formal obed...at least for a few years. We'll keep the foundation built as most of it is what I require from daily life/outings.

But we'll be focusing on rally, not my favorite sport, but it's judge contact free and dangit this dog as to much passion and training not to earn and deserve some titles!

---------------------------------------
Any rally advice anyone? or should I start a "Rally thread" ?

[the_discowhore]

I think training rally is pretty much the same as training obedience in terms of the process, just a few different "moves" to learn and there is less emphasis on precision Oh and obviously you have to remember the rally course (WAY harder than it sounds LOL)

[Sam1491]

Originally Posted by the_discowhore

I think training rally is pretty much the same as training obedience in terms of the process, just a few different "moves" to learn and there is less emphasis on precision Oh and obviously you have to remember the rally course (WAY harder than it sounds LOL)

Lol I stewarded a few weekends ago and got to talking with a judge and some exhibitors and from the sounds of it the only class I need is for me about how to intpret the rather redundant signs haha, i'm so used to the rigours of obed and rally seems so foreign and ummm loose

I know it's not a strict, any other moves that aren't in obed? I've seen some sit/down and walk arounds or etc..

The judge also threw a loop for our area (though allowable) and used a broad jump as one of the jumps and I've always had trouble getting my dogs to jump those, tips?

[Asmit]

Originally Posted by the_discowhore

Good luck! I worry about Elsie poking people during figure of 8 as well... Curious dogs! She always tries to knock over the first sign on a rally course, even though she has totally seen them a million times before.

Oh gosh I forgot that beginner novice has rally signs!! I hope she doesn't do that haha I've literally taken 6 of the dogs through many many rally courses yet I for some reason never took her. Great. I bet she'll want to hit those too.