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Old 11-21-2012, 02:28 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Asmit View Post
Since I didn't like the type of retrieve I got from Zeus training it on my own, I went back to my trainer and have been doing it her way with much better results. Zeus would retrieve most objects perfectly fine and quickly, but he wasn't holding the objects tight enough, and it was more of a "hold your breath and hope it works out" kind of thing. I needed to get him more comfortable with holding the dumbbell no matter what (the schutzhund dumbbell is very heavy and large for a dog who is generally uninterested in things being in his mouth.)

But anyways, she has had me go back to the very beginning of having him simply holding the dumbbell in every situation. As in first holding it in a sit while watching you, then the dog stays in sit and you take steps back, step forward, then you rotate to the side of them, and so on. Once you can move anywhere possible and do anything without the dog dropping it, then you start to ask the dog to move and hold it at the same time. This is done by walking on lead and offering the dumbbell at the same time. The dog should continue walking generally with you (not formal heel position) while holding the dumbbell. He should also be ok and immune to your hands doing whatever, you should be able to pet them where ever, mess with the dumbbell or touch their mouths without them dropping it. These are the first parts in having a 'proofed' retrieve.

This is the stuff I skipped when teaching the retrieve, which made Zeus much more sensitive to outside influences whilst doing the actual retrieve. There's no way I could have touched him, moved his head, or walked beside him at first. And I needed to be able to be beside him when I added in the wall. On trial day, the dogs will pull every excuse out of the book, and proofing it this way, helps minimize the possible excuses.

I'll get a video of stuff to do while simply teaching the hold in a stationary position.
The retrieve exercises are 40% of the points in a Sch trial. I am working on that right now. It is one of the things that I have just not spent enough time on and it is certainly not proofed.

We backchain the whole sequence of learning the dumbell retrieve. Actually we don't teach it as a retrieve at all. The problem with throwing a dumbell and then expecting them to run and bring it back as a game is that it is purely a prey exercise, then. In this case typically what you will see is the dog brings it back much slower than he goes out to get it. Also not taking it seriously, hence the chewing and screwing around.

We start off with the front position, and use a wooden dowel (has to be very hard wood) or 1" plastic pvc pipe with a string attached to it. The dog first learns to take it and then maintain the front position with the dowel. a second person yanks on the string attached to the dowel. if the dog is not holding it securely it comes out. He then gets grief in the form of low level e-collar stimulation until he re-grips. The dog learns to not let go. It then progresses to the dog going out and getting the dowel and bringing it back. There is low level stims until the dog brings back the dowel to the front position. We then progress to a break away dumbbell. My training director, Lance Collins invented this. He allowed Schweikert to produce and sell it (they marketed it as the LC dumbbell). Gappay also copied it and from what I understand makes a better one than the Schwiekert. This process can take many sessions to get to the point where you can proof it.

In this process also a second handler is using a long line to invoke the reverse response in the dog, to increase willingness to be in the correct position and to increase speed, precision and power in the exercise.

Several years ago Lance did a 3 day seminar on just the retrieve, so I do not expect anyone to get much from the little I have written.

Last edited by Rosamburg; 11-21-2012 at 02:31 AM..
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:01 AM   #52 (permalink)
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The retrieve exercises are 40% of the points in a Sch trial. I am working on that right now. It is one of the things that I have just not spent enough time on and it is certainly not proofed.

We backchain the whole sequence of learning the dumbell retrieve. Actually we don't teach it as a retrieve at all. The problem with throwing a dumbell and then expecting them to run and bring it back as a game is that it is purely a prey exercise, then. In this case typically what you will see is the dog brings it back much slower than he goes out to get it. Also not taking it seriously, hence the chewing and screwing around.

We start off with the front position, and use a wooden dowel (has to be very hard wood) or 1" plastic pvc pipe with a string attached to it. The dog first learns to take it and then maintain the front position with the dowel. a second person yanks on the string attached to the dowel. if the dog is not holding it securely it comes out. He then gets grief in the form of low level e-collar stimulation until he re-grips. The dog learns to not let go. It then progresses to the dog going out and getting the dowel and bringing it back. There is low level stims until the dog brings back the dowel to the front position. We then progress to a break away dumbbell. My training director, Lance Collins invented this. He allowed Schweikert to produce and sell it (they marketed it as the LC dumbbell). Gappay also copied it and from what I understand makes a better one than the Schwiekert. This process can take many sessions to get to the point where you can proof it.

In this process also a second handler is using a long line to invoke the reverse response in the dog, to increase willingness to be in the correct position and to increase speed, precision and power in the exercise.

Several years ago Lance did a 3 day seminar on just the retrieve, so I do not expect anyone to get much from the little I have written.
Always interesting to hear different techniques. Although it is obviously a very simplified run down, there are very many similarities in this to the method/sequencing that my trainer uses. She typically uses leash pressure vs ecollar, but we are considering using ecollar for Zeus because he responds much better to it. He tends to take the leash/collar as being more personal.

Anyone have suggestions on this? With Argo I started the forced retrieve with PVC. Have not dedicated used much to it since we trial in a couple weeks and I have been busy taking him to other places/distractions. But anyways, in a general front/sit, he will take the PVC but literally just closes his teeth around it for a nanosecond and spots it out. Michael Ellis's method uses cupping their muzzle to encourage holding their mouth closed, and that didn't seem to help at all.
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Old 11-25-2012, 07:59 AM   #53 (permalink)
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took the dogs to a match a few weeks ago to work them all - well berlin just went to keep everyone company but i ended up putting her into an entry as well - im still toying with just putting her in the open ring.

here is berlin first - berlin was trained through utility before i had to retire her, and hasn't been in regular training since aug 2011 - but she clearly remembers the fundamentals and i just may toss her i a show to see!
Roo match 11/10 - YouTube

here is chill doing a fake open run. we didnt get to jumping, and the building was so small i couldnt move out enough to get him to stride out - but the jumping will go away and he did a fine job for a baby dog!
Chill match 11/10 - YouTube

here is cherry - more than anything im super happy with her attitude and staying up in the ring. she makes some mistakes here but we work through them - broad jump is new for her so thats to be expected- and both my baby dogs have trouble holding stays for recalls because i build so much drive - i want them on edge and coming in fast, so the double edged sword means they break a little bit. oh well, they will get past it!

Cb match open 11/10 - YouTube


and yes, my dogs know the person who runs us through here - so its why they consider saying hi a few times (berlin more than anyone else).
not perfect runs, but its a start - time to get them out to multiple places!
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Old 11-25-2012, 04:56 PM   #54 (permalink)
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I taught Hans the retrieve by first teaching the "hold" until I could hold the dumbbell still at my waist and say "aport" (my command for retrieve) and he would lunge forward, grab it from my hands, and hold it still. Then I would put him in a down and place the dumbbell on the ground between me and him, ask for an aport, and teach him that he is rewarded for picking the dumbbell up and bringing it to me.

I taught the actual retrieve by using the ball as a reward...he loves the ball and I didn't want the dumbbell to become what he is crazy about and start chewing it, we have a lot of dogs at the club with problems like that. I haven't had problems with him not coming back fast because he knows he gets the ball when he brings the dumbbell back to me. I had to be very careful to not reward him too soon and encourage him to spit out the dumbbell instead of hold it. So occasionally I will go back to just asking him to hold it, and then rewarding for that without an actual retrieve.
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Old 11-25-2012, 05:57 PM   #55 (permalink)
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I taught Hans the retrieve by first teaching the "hold" until I could hold the dumbbell still at my waist and say "aport" (my command for retrieve) and he would lunge forward, grab it from my hands, and hold it still. Then I would put him in a down and place the dumbbell on the ground between me and him, ask for an aport, and teach him that he is rewarded for picking the dumbbell up and bringing it to me.

I taught the actual retrieve by using the ball as a reward...he loves the ball and I didn't want the dumbbell to become what he is crazy about and start chewing it, we have a lot of dogs at the club with problems like that. I haven't had problems with him not coming back fast because he knows he gets the ball when he brings the dumbbell back to me. I had to be very careful to not reward him too soon and encourage him to spit out the dumbbell instead of hold it. So occasionally I will go back to just asking him to hold it, and then rewarding for that without an actual retrieve.
This is where I am now with Zeus. The video is the one I posted about a month ago, but it didn't work. I added in some terrible music because my voice and talking is excessive and annoying. So just turn the volume off, anyone who watches
retrieve


And here I have a progress video of the girl. This first video was about ~month ago. As you can see, she refuses to move her a** and has no rear-end awareness at all. She has already improved a ton! The second video is after ~2 weeks of working on it. She is an example of a drivey dog who has had little development and minimal structure in her work until recently. (hence she has gotten away with being sloppy for quite a few years) She will likely be used as a demo dog.
retrieve

retrieve
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Old 12-29-2012, 11:19 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Heelwork is the bane of my life. That is all
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Old 12-30-2012, 06:40 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Heelwork is the bane of my life. That is all
All OB is the bane of my life.
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:58 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Heelwork is the bane of my life. That is all
I agree. Baron loves everything else but heelwork.
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Old 12-30-2012, 08:23 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Heelwork is the bane of my life. That is all
Lol I like to tell people that one they get heeling down its a piece of cake. But I guess that's really just me being evil! There is always something to be doing to improve heeling
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Old 12-30-2012, 02:54 PM   #60 (permalink)
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I just can't get it right! Pretty much managed to teach scent discrimination in one session yesterday (will retrieve her cloth out of 5 cloths), but I can't get nice heelwork to save my life! Dunno if I am overthinking things.... its just so dificult! I think I need to retrain so she doesn't look up, while it looks nicer, at jer height I think its making her forge attention is slowwwlllyy getting better, but position still sucky argh wanna do CD early next year (pretty much the only CDs in my area next year are all in March/April)... so much pressure!
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:09 PM   #61 (permalink)
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I just can't get it right! Pretty much managed to teach scent discrimination in one session yesterday (will retrieve her cloth out of 5 cloths), but I can't get nice heelwork to save my life! Dunno if I am overthinking things.... its just so dificult! I think I need to retrain so she doesn't look up, while it looks nicer, at jer height I think its making her forge attention is slowwwlllyy getting better, but position still sucky argh wanna do CD early next year (pretty much the only CDs in my area next year are all in March/April)... so much pressure!
I feel your pain. Baron's heeling really sucked big time when we went for his CDX but because he was pretty good with all the other exercises we were able to qualify. He just dislikes heeling but I am sure most of it is my fault.

These are the videos from the first day. Unfortunately, DH somehow didn't get the third day and title day and that was actually our best heeling of the three days. He is a little challenged when it comes to the camera. Anyway, you can see our heeling is not that good and most of it is my fault. I am sort of a "challenged handler"! But for me, it is all about the green qualifying ribbon. And, actually, we got a 4th place this day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HEiUSqjIqM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HEiUSqjIqM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti_vD_XaRE0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-T3mRFt_M0
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Last edited by dax0402; 12-30-2012 at 03:28 PM..
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Old 12-30-2012, 03:57 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Healing has been our weakness also, but we've really been trying to improve it. Technically you want the dog looking up at your shoulder, it makes the turns and about turns much easier. Picking up the pace has also helped as the dog has to keep up and gets less distracted.

A friend who is very successful in the OB ring has been giving us help on our healing. She has us healing about 5 steps at a time and if Princess is in the right position and watching we stop treat and praise, when doing about turns the same thing, but if she drops her head we give a slight pop and treat when she is in position.

Hopefully we will finish our UD next month and move into the B class, but unless our healing gets better we won't stand a chance against all those damn Border Collies and Golden's that just stare at their owners.
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Old 12-30-2012, 04:52 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Ha! Ya'll have no idea what bad heeling really is. I'm just glad she stays in the darn ring with me. Ilka @ LCCOC May 26, 2012 - YouTube

In her defense, she can and does heel nicely in practice, but gets terribly distracted and overwhelmed at trials, plus she's pretty dog reactive. I'm hoping to get that last CD leg in January, but even is she doesn't get it, that's the end of her AKC obedience career.
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:31 PM   #64 (permalink)
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That is how I always felt. Just stay in the ring. Best of luck on your last leg. We have retired also. Not going for the UD. I am not a good enough trainer. I might train some of the UD exercises just for fun. I found a trainer fairly close by in the area we moved to. After the holidays going to call and see if she has any classes during the day. I met her when we were trailing for our CDX. She got first place all three days. Talk about focused heeling!
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Old 12-30-2012, 05:35 PM   #65 (permalink)
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One of the most helpful things I have found in heeling was the '300 count' game or whatever its called. If the dog is being 'blah' about heeling, I make it more fun. I'll take 1 step, immediately release, play play play. Then take 3 steps, release, reward, play. Then 5 steps, then 7 steps, then up to maybe 30-40 and end the session after that.

I've found that helpful for dogs learning how to build the length/duration but also for cough cough my own dog when I've been slacking on heeling for awhile and he goes a bit 'flat'.

As far as corrections for looking away, this is a very tricky subject. I personally would not do it with a dog until they can positively maintain focus reliably for at least 50 paces, under distractions, and so on. But maybe that's just me. I see wayyy too many people trying to give their dogs nicks with the collar for looking away but 9 times out of ten, the dog just ain't that into it and the handler's timing and corrections are merely making it worse.

I do utilize corrections for looking away, but I am very tentative with how and when I do it depending upon the dog.
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Old 12-31-2012, 07:03 AM   #66 (permalink)
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This post of fanny gott is the best am going to start working like this i have ring trouble I think this will help a lot thanks
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More from Fanny Gott - I am getting some really good ideas for obedience training from here!
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:29 AM   #67 (permalink)
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i had my boyfriend videotape chills first heeling without cookies in my hand - i think he did well. its far from perfect (and i am super ill - i managed to be upright for 2 hours yesterda and after this heeling i was dying - this upper respiratory infection/flu is KILLING me)...

Chill trains - YouTube

i have to work on his bumping - part of it is my crappy handling and the fact that yesterday our training session was utility open and novice all mixed in, so i had to avoid other dogs (my trainers and i just trained our dogs all over the place yesterday) and the jumps, etc.

cherry is a work in progress. we are retraining her position since she cant do heads up - her front end structure makes her too hard to maintain that position without crabbing significantly, so we are going for a head turn instead. she has good drive but is easily distracted, so we are working on building more drive and rewarding with higher reward treats/toys, with mild corrections for inattention. right now i just want her driving into this position more than anything. we are hoping to have the babies out by the end of this year, qualifying for the All star tournament in 2014 and potentially for the classic in orlando in 2014. chill's mom just finished 15th at the NOI overall (huge for her, since she is very crazy, to go clean all 16 rounds!), and my trainer hopes to take chill's half brother to the classic this year in novice and next year in open! i have my goals - lets see how far we get honestly for cherry i want to get out of novice with her as fast as possible
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:34 AM   #68 (permalink)
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fyi in that video - whining care of berlin who is making her open debut in 10 days, EEEK. no training for her, we're just giving it a go.... what was i thinking????
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:42 AM   #69 (permalink)
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I feel your pain. Baron's heeling really sucked big time when we went for his CDX but because he was pretty good with all the other exercises we were able to qualify. He just dislikes heeling but I am sure most of it is my fault.

These are the videos from the first day. Unfortunately, DH somehow didn't get the third day and title day and that was actually our best heeling of the three days. He is a little challenged when it comes to the camera. Anyway, you can see our heeling is not that good and most of it is my fault. I am sort of a "challenged handler"! But for me, it is all about the green qualifying ribbon. And, actually, we got a 4th place this day.

CDX - YouTube

CDX - YouTube

CDX3 - YouTube

CDX4 - YouTube

ahh i love the bloomsburg show site!!!! how did you like showing to barbara doering? i had a bad experience under her years ago, but i think i will try her again with the babies. ive seen her at a few matches with her new rotten.

baron looks good in the ring - his heeling could be better, but be happy with what he has to offer!!! i think you should try utility - i love it!!!! so challenging but thats what makes this all fun!
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:08 AM   #70 (permalink)
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ahh i love the bloomsburg show site!!!! how did you like showing to barbara doering? i had a bad experience under her years ago, but i think i will try her again with the babies. ive seen her at a few matches with her new rotten.

baron looks good in the ring - his heeling could be better, but be happy with what he has to offer!!! i think you should try utility - i love it!!!! so challenging but thats what makes this all fun!
Thanks Kim. I was just so happy we qualified in 3 days and I know his problems are mostly my problems. Anyway, Barbara was wonderful. Very upbeat and understanding for first timers. We had Tamara Woodrow on Sunday and she was not as understanding and a little "crabby"! Saturday and Sunday we actually got 3rd place by default because only 3 teams qualified. Saturday 3 out of 16 and Sunday 3 out 14. I wish DH would have gotten the Sunday trial on video because that was actually his best heeling and he had straighter fronts. But all in all I am extremely satisified. If you come to Bloomsburg in July, let me know. We now only live 25 minutes from the site.
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:18 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Nice video Kim - he is looking great!!
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:54 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Great video thanks for sharing KIm great work
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:03 PM   #73 (permalink)
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thanks guys - tonight is class for both dogs (im doing open and novice with both dogs) so i will see if dave can get a video or two of us... as you can see in that video chill is still trying to figure out his striding and work out how not to hop - cherry is doing the same thing and because she wants to put her head up but structurally cant maintain it, she also hops a step every few strides. if thats what i get from her, thats what i will take.
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Old 01-04-2013, 07:44 AM   #74 (permalink)
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thanks guys - tonight is class for both dogs (im doing open and novice with both dogs) so i will see if dave can get a video or two of us... as you can see in that video chill is still trying to figure out his striding and work out how not to hop - cherry is doing the same thing and because she wants to put her head up but structurally cant maintain it, she also hops a step every few strides. if thats what i get from her, thats what i will take.
Looking forward to more of your videos. They are always an inspiration to how it should be done.
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Old 01-04-2013, 03:02 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Kim how are you retraining Cherry to keep her head down? One of my friends has pointed out that I should retrain Elsie to keep her head down, as looking up is what is causing her to forge so much (trying to maintain eye contact).

Was thinking of training her to target my leg with her head or something? (dogs can touch handler while in heeling in NZKC, like the UK KC obedience).
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