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Old 09-29-2012, 01:32 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Loss of bite, any suggestions?

I have a problem I have never experienced before.
My dobermans have lost their 'bite' (on a tug)
They are 16months old and I have been developing their bite since they were about 6months old.
Overnight they seem to have lost it, almost completely. They just seem really to not want to play anymore.
It is confusing.
I have recently started using a different tug as their old one was wearing thin but even when I go back to the old one they are very much not into it.
they still bite it but ist is not so deep and their hold is almost non existent they almost 'give up' as soon as they bite it.
I havn't been overdoing the 'out'.

Any ideas and advice appreciated.

Thanks
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Old 09-29-2012, 07:10 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Maybe you're overdoing the bitework. Let them do something else. Tracking. Agility. Mix it up.
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Old 09-30-2012, 01:28 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Hi thanks for the reply.
It's definitely not that, I have done very little training generally since Luna the staffy turned up (4 weeks ago), she is priority atm, the twins are getting walks and fun time twice a day with training twice a week to stop behaviours going extinct including biting tugs, I am too knackered to train them every day at the moment.

I think I will get them tracking more though, good suggestion thanks, that is very relaxing.
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Old 09-30-2012, 02:34 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Are their any more weird behavioral things going on? Maybe this is a health deal, something wrong with the mouth or jaw. Or even something else to throw them out of whack. Our dogs can't tell us when they have something going on, they have to subtly show us. Just an idea, seems to weird and sudden of a change to be just them being sick of training.


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Old 09-30-2012, 04:01 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Yes my first thought was their teeth but no it doesn't seem to be this, they do other training with their normal enthusiasm its just bitework (tugs)
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:21 AM   #6 (permalink)
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they could be conspiring against you a bit of reverse psyc. to get you to loss interest in the toy. Do not under estimate the dober mind
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:26 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Both dogs lost interest at the same time? They had plenty of drive to play tug before?
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:26 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Since this was sudden, I'd be scratching my head and ask a vet if this warrants a visit. They can have a more thorough look with Their equipment. Someone brought a dog in and said he was fine except when they wanted to fetch. The owner checked the teeth and throat but nothing could be seen. The vet sedated and and took a look, there was a pin wedged in the palate. Needless to say the dog felt a lot better after that visit.

If its not medical, maybe going back a few steps, concentrate on their prey drive with a flirt pole, do silly things, make it fun, play tug of war with them. I've found that dogs simply need a change in training method to get the enthusiasm back.
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:40 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Maybe the new tug was tough on their gums and now they are a little sore and therefore refusing to bite. I would wait awhile then do tug work with something different like a ball on a rope, slowly going back to the tug. What material is the tug?

You said you have a new dog in the house? This might also have something to do with it, they could be very distracted.
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Old 09-30-2012, 10:55 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
I have a problem I have never experienced before.
My dobermans have lost their 'bite' (on a tug)
They are 16months old and I have been developing their bite since they were about 6months old.
Overnight they seem to have lost it, almost completely. They just seem really to not want to play anymore.
It is confusing.
I have recently started using a different tug as their old one was wearing thin but even when I go back to the old one they are very much not into it.
they still bite it but ist is not so deep and their hold is almost non existent they almost 'give up' as soon as they bite it.
I havn't been overdoing the 'out'.

Any ideas and advice appreciated.

Thanks
The fact that both dogs quit tells me that it is something you are doing or have done. Without a video it is hard to diagnose.
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Old 09-30-2012, 10:59 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Lack of interest could be a number of things and I agree with what is said above.

I personally would take the dogs out, tease them with it, put them up. Take them out again, tease them with it, put them up. Repeat, let them have maybe one bite, then game over. Super short, make them work for it. If they don't want it when you want them to, then that's too bad. Put it up. I also am not sure, but aren't they still a bit young to be doing many outs or having much pressure? If they aren't interested it must not be a very fun or enjoyable activity for them.
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Old 10-02-2012, 07:34 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adhahn View Post
Both dogs lost interest at the same time? They had plenty of drive to play tug before?
Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by DogsR4Life View Post
Since this was sudden, I'd be scratching my head and ask a vet if this warrants a visit. They can have a more thorough look with Their equipment. Someone brought a dog in and said he was fine except when they wanted to fetch. The owner checked the teeth and throat but nothing could be seen. The vet sedated and and took a look, there was a pin wedged in the palate. Needless to say the dog felt a lot better after that visit.

If its not medical, maybe going back a few steps, concentrate on their prey drive with a flirt pole, do silly things, make it fun, play tug of war with them. I've found that dogs simply need a change in training method to get the enthusiasm back.
Thanks for this, i'm pretty sure it is not medical as it has happened with both of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okie-dobie View Post
Maybe the new tug was tough on their gums and now they are a little sore and therefore refusing to bite. I would wait awhile then do tug work with something different like a ball on a rope, slowly going back to the tug. What material is the tug?

You said you have a new dog in the house? This might also have something to do with it, they could be very distracted.
This is possible, I'll get a pick of the tug later and I am suspecting it does have something to do with the puppy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmit View Post
Lack of interest could be a number of things and I agree with what is said above.

I personally would take the dogs out, tease them with it, put them up. Take them out again, tease them with it, put them up. Repeat, let them have maybe one bite, then game over. Super short, make them work for it. If they don't want it when you want them to, then that's too bad. Put it up. I also am not sure, but aren't they still a bit young to be doing many outs or having much pressure? If they aren't interested it must not be a very fun or enjoyable activity for them.
I have been trying this but to no avail.
I don't believe they are too young for outs and I don't put them under much pressure, or at least I don't think so I can't view from the outside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonterra2002 View Post
The fact that both dogs quit tells me that it is something you are doing or have done. Without a video it is hard to diagnose.
This I think may be the answer. I am very tired at the moment for various reasons, they probably sense I am not as in to it as usual.


Changes that have occurred that have coincided with this:

They have a new outside heated insulated kennel in their outside run. They are not in this for long periods, like overnight. just for short periods so that I can manage the puppies interaction better. They have used the run all their life it is only the kennel which is new. I did have some problems getting them to use it, max 2 days.

New tug.

New puppy.

Change of training and exercise routine due to puppy arrival.

Becca is being fed extra meats with her evening meal, like chicken and lamb in order to get her weight up so her ribs, spine and hips are not so prominent. which reminds me I must update that thread.

All other behaviours are normal.

Thanks for your help guys

Last edited by Matt Vandart; 10-02-2012 at 07:36 AM..
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Old 10-02-2012, 08:20 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
I have a problem I have never experienced before.
My dobermans have lost their 'bite' (on a tug)
They are 16months old and I have been developing their bite since they were about 6months old.
Overnight they seem to have lost it, almost completely. They just seem really to not want to play anymore.
It is confusing.
I have recently started using a different tug as their old one was wearing thin but even when I go back to the old one they are very much not into it.
they still bite it but ist is not so deep and their hold is almost non existent they almost 'give up' as soon as they bite it.
I havn't been overdoing the 'out'.

Any ideas and advice appreciated.

Thanks

If I am remembering correctly I am going to say that the dogs appeared to lack overall drive to me. If it was your "heeling" video I am thinking of, you said something along the lines of how you don't think you had the enthusiasm to get a focused heel. Also in your "distance down" video the dogs seemed to lack any excitement. I just attributed it to being an older dog going through the paces. I didn't realize they were so young. At sixteen months and being dobes, I would expect those dogs to be a lot more spirited.

I have some drive trouble in the heat of the summer but thats about it. They may have simply just got bored. I know I do. I change up our routine often. If they have any prey drive at all tie their tug to a long line (30ft). Work them with that. Drag it around while they chase it. Put them in downs and drag it past them and release them. Work on outs, moving downs midchase, lonnnnnggggggg downs while you walk around the yard dragging it behind you. It can really get them going.
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:31 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I agree with trying what she said above^ Maybe use a flirt pole. Or just tie a rope to the tug to put some more movement in it. You can try back-tying them to work with the tug.

You said "You don't think they're too young for what you've been doing". But isn't this your first pair of Dobermans? Doberman's mature much more slowly than other working breeds, and if you push them to hard, early on, and you make things too serious for them, you will kill their drive.

If you were an experienced doberman helper etc, I would say 16 months isn't too young to properly do outs. But if the dogs lack drive to begin with and have a poor foundation, than perhaps it may be too much for them to handle.

Most dobermans will play and bite, it is when you start adding in the pressure of telling them when and where to bite and when to release that you see a drastic difference between a dog bred to do it, and one that is not. The two 15 month old Dobes that I work with are doing outs with the tugs for re-bites, but the rest of their bitework is still not much more than just a fun game. No real life scenarios, almost entirely out of prey drive, etc.

I also agree with eattheleash about your dogs seeming lower drive after watching the videos. They seem about on par with my low-drive boy BUT they are less than 2 years old and without health problems. I think, like with the bitework, that you have pushed the dogs too fast into too much 'seriousness' with all of their work. You seem to be a good trainer, but you also seem to be asking a lot out of young dogs. Dobermans generally are not gonna respond well to that. Heck I've even seen some GSDs not respond well to that. The first year of their life, your laying the foundation for EVERYTHING to come. Commands can easily be taught to a mature dog. The first year IMO should be nothing but fun and drive building, and I'm not sure you did that with your girls.

This is just my opinion, and I could be completely wrong obviously. But it just seems you pushed the dogs a bit too early. I don't think their age is an issue for a well bred working dog, but their pedigree is certainly not a working-line pedigree.
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:17 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Cool, thanks for the replies and advice.
No they are not my first dobermans but obviously I have never had and still don't have a 'proper' doberman.
I'm not being funny here so son't take this the wrong way but all my vids are pretty much done spur of the moment with an agenda in mind, often when the dogs are a bit tired either because I have had to repeat things a number of times (because of me making mistakes, or some technical issue) or because its at the end of a session when I think 'hey I should vid this to get some advice', so it is not a very good representation of whats actually going on, which sucks for both showing and asking for a problem.
They are completely different when just playing with them or just training with them.
I am also very controlling of what is going down as my vid has either a point to get across or I am trying to capture a specific problem.
I am also a bit nervous in all my vids, hence the stutter and blank moments, can't help it I have no idea why, I'm not like it in real life, the dogs pick up on that also and probably think what the hell is going on here.

My dogs have at least sufficient drive, not just my opinion but also that of the dudes (and dudettes) at the shutzhund club.
I am pretty sure they don't have exceptional drive.
These dogs were terrors when proper puppies, I nearly gave up on them, I may well have ****ed their drive up just to keep the house and garden in one piece. I also was away from home alot in their early life which didn't help.
My wifey is excellent at training house manners but not so hot at the rest.
I also think a major problem is because I made the stoopid error of getting sibling sisters and have been considering re-homing one of them with my sister who is after a new dog, in order to get the best out of the remaining dog.

Can someone do me a favour and link me a vid to what they consider a high drive doberman in action please?

I am perfectly happy to see that mine are lacklustre just don't believe it at the moment. Not from people that have only seen a few points in time from a few vids, no offence meant in this comment, I know you both know your stuff.

In essence I don't think it is a drive issue with the dogs but I am willing to be proven wrong.

My bite work is about play and is out of prey drive also but I have introduced targeting recently, maybe that is the issue here.
My concerns really stem from Tillies lack of interest in biting games because before this was here favourite thing to do, out of everything. Becca has always been more about chasing balls.


Edit:
Just re-read your posts: do your dogs loose drive in the heat, cos these two do very badly. I have never seen this before in any of my dogs. It makes me more concerned about their health.

Also I think I may have got too serious too soon indeed, but I'm afraid my lifestyle meant I had too cram their training alot. Looking now at the possible results it was a bit fruitless.

Another edit: The more I think about it the more I think I have suppressed their drive as Kath didn't want any more dobermans after Pickle and I have been very controlling of them to stop them pissing her off.
Wish I had got a Mal now

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Old 10-02-2012, 11:13 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Cool, thanks for the replies and advice.
No they are not my first dobermans but obviously I have never had and still don't have a 'proper' doberman.
I'm not being funny here so son't take this the wrong way but all my vids are pretty much done spur of the moment with an agenda in mind, often when the dogs are a bit tired either because I have had to repeat things a number of times (because of me making mistakes, or some technical issue) or because its at the end of a session when I think 'hey I should vid this to get some advice', so it is not a very good representation of whats actually going on, which sucks for both showing and asking for a problem.
They are completely different when just playing with them or just training with them.
I am also very controlling of what is going down as my vid has either a point to get across or I am trying to capture a specific problem.
I am also a bit nervous in all my vids, hence the stutter and blank moments, can't help it I have no idea why, I'm not like it in real life, the dogs pick up on that also and probably think what the hell is going on here.

My dogs have at least sufficient drive, not just my opinion but also that of the dudes (and dudettes) at the shutzhund club.
I am pretty sure they don't have exceptional drive.
These dogs were terrors when proper puppies, I nearly gave up on them, I may well have ****ed their drive up just to keep the house and garden in one piece. I also was away from home alot in their early life which didn't help.
My wifey is excellent at training house manners but not so hot at the rest.
I also think a major problem is because I made the stoopid error of getting sibling sisters and have been considering re-homing one of them with my sister who is after a new dog, in order to get the best out of the remaining dog.

Can someone do me a favour and link me a vid to what they consider a high drive doberman in action please?

I am perfectly happy to see that mine are lacklustre just don't believe it at the moment. Not from people that have only seen a few points in time from a few vids, no offence meant in this comment, I know you both know your stuff.

In essence I don't think it is a drive issue with the dogs but I am willing to be proven wrong.

My bite work is about play and is out of prey drive also but I have introduced targeting recently, maybe that is the issue here.
My concerns really stem from Tillies lack of interest in biting games because before this was here favourite thing to do, out of everything. Becca has always been more about chasing balls.


Edit:
Just re-read your posts: do your dogs loose drive in the heat, cos these two do very badly. I have never seen this before in any of my dogs. It makes me more concerned about their health.

Also I think I may have got too serious too soon indeed, but I'm afraid my lifestyle meant I had too cram their training alot. Looking now at the possible results it was a bit fruitless.

Another edit: The more I think about it the more I think I have suppressed their drive as Kath didn't want any more dobermans after Pickle and I have been very controlling of them to stop them pissing her off.
Wish I had got a Mal now
My dog came from a byb and lacks any real working dog drive. She loses drive if the grass is wet. If she is hot. If she walks past where she's poop'ed in the last three weeks. With that said she is still an amazing dog! Her level of obedience far exceeds anything you would see outside the rings. If we are playing at the park I get many onlookers and questions from strangers. She is the best and I wouldn't trade her for anything. What she isn't however, is a dog that will have that insane malinois focus and repeatability. I wish I could get that kind of drive with a rubber ball... I need to be conscious of when and with what we train. Never push to hard and always leave her wanting more. I will continue to enjoy her as it is, take it slow, and have some fun in the process.
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Old 10-02-2012, 01:23 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Cool, thanks for the replies and advice.
No they are not my first dobermans but obviously I have never had and still don't have a 'proper' doberman.
I'm not being funny here so son't take this the wrong way but all my vids are pretty much done spur of the moment with an agenda in mind, often when the dogs are a bit tired either because I have had to repeat things a number of times (because of me making mistakes, or some technical issue) or because its at the end of a session when I think 'hey I should vid this to get some advice', so it is not a very good representation of whats actually going on, which sucks for both showing and asking for a problem.
They are completely different when just playing with them or just training with them.
I am also very controlling of what is going down as my vid has either a point to get across or I am trying to capture a specific problem.
I am also a bit nervous in all my vids, hence the stutter and blank moments, can't help it I have no idea why, I'm not like it in real life, the dogs pick up on that also and probably think what the hell is going on here.

My dogs have at least sufficient drive, not just my opinion but also that of the dudes (and dudettes) at the shutzhund club.
I am pretty sure they don't have exceptional drive.
These dogs were terrors when proper puppies, I nearly gave up on them, I may well have ****ed their drive up just to keep the house and garden in one piece. I also was away from home alot in their early life which didn't help.
My wifey is excellent at training house manners but not so hot at the rest.
I also think a major problem is because I made the stoopid error of getting sibling sisters and have been considering re-homing one of them with my sister who is after a new dog, in order to get the best out of the remaining dog.

Can someone do me a favour and link me a vid to what they consider a high drive doberman in action please?

I am perfectly happy to see that mine are lacklustre just don't believe it at the moment. Not from people that have only seen a few points in time from a few vids, no offence meant in this comment, I know you both know your stuff.

In essence I don't think it is a drive issue with the dogs but I am willing to be proven wrong.

My bite work is about play and is out of prey drive also but I have introduced targeting recently, maybe that is the issue here.
My concerns really stem from Tillies lack of interest in biting games because before this was here favourite thing to do, out of everything. Becca has always been more about chasing balls.


Edit:
Just re-read your posts: do your dogs loose drive in the heat, cos these two do very badly. I have never seen this before in any of my dogs. It makes me more concerned about their health.

Also I think I may have got too serious too soon indeed, but I'm afraid my lifestyle meant I had too cram their training alot. Looking now at the possible results it was a bit fruitless.

Another edit: The more I think about it the more I think I have suppressed their drive as Kath didn't want any more dobermans after Pickle and I have been very controlling of them to stop them pissing her off.
Wish I had got a Mal now
It's much easier to see the differences in person. Here I am posting one of the top Dobes in the nation. Obviously he has a ton of exceptional training, but even in his obedience he displays a lot of drive. I had the pleasure of watching him this weekend and it is very easy to see his level of drive while working.

Eiko v. Landgraf AWDF 2012 Obedience - YouTube

Another dog in drive throughout the video:
Caesar's first PSA 3 attempt - YouTube
Of course this dog is in a different setting and desperately wants to be released to a bite, but you can see in his presentation how he is working in drive. Not just 'doing the work'.

These are "extreme" examples, but its hard to show the difference via videos or pictures especially considering most people only post videos of dogs with a lot of training behind them.

In your post about why your videos seem 'lower drive' you basically explained what I was saying. You said it yourself that you sometimes work them well past their level of interest/energy. I used to do this for the same reasons. I would 'mess up' and I wanted to redo something. Well if I didn't do something perfectly during a training session, too bad, the dog always needs to end on a high note, and a young dog IMO should not be pushed passed their attention span/drive maintenance time. I know my dog has about 20 minutes of good obedience time. After that, anything I do will just further decrease his drive. Hell, even at the trial, the last 5 minutes of our BH he was 'done', checked out, and could care less what we were doing. I NEVER work him to that point where he is merely going through the motions at home. The goal is to gradually lengthen the time they can maintain drive, but the genetics dictate a certain 'limit'.
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Old 10-02-2012, 03:15 PM   #18 (permalink)
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That 180 pivoting is THE most awesome thing I have ever seen a dog do.


See this vid here:

heel


That was after about 2 hours.

This vid:
was literally made over about 4 hours. We had been out and about for about 2 hours before we started filming on the field.
The second location is a country park about 2 miles from our house (by the training field) which we walked to, then filmed the second bit, with the food marking, walked around the park, then we walked back and filmed the last bit, which took about about 1 hour.

much


That is a very long time indeed, seriously that is is 4 hours later and they are still chasing the ball like that and they have low drive? (serious question please answer).
I'm not sure but I think you may be mixing lack of drive up with sloppy execution, remember at this point in time (when I made this vid) I am using my laid back real life obedience method of training where I don't care how the dog downs as long as it downs when I say, or how it heels as long as it heels when I say and I am letting them **** up so people don't get disheartened when their dog doesn't do it right straight away.
I had no intentions of schutzhund titles, or attention on my face as long as they listened to the level I was expecting, depending on what we are doing, I was happy.
At any point in that vid I could have got serious and had them doing stuff properly.

I am being honest here, if take Becca over the field and train with her for 20 mins, then walk back home (about 2 mins) as soon as we get back she will be ready for more.
Typical day before Luna turned up:
I have to take them both out at 6am till 7/7:30ish in the morning, otherwise they will be pains in the ass when kath gets up, we walk down to the quay, bugger about there for half hour chasing bunnies (courseing, shhhhhhhh.....) then I have breakfast, and so do they,then I take one out for 40 mins of training, then I come back, then I take the other one out for 40 mins, by this time it's 10:30 ish so they have a kip for an hour or 2 while I walk Bumpy and bugger about, the max they will kip for is 2hours, then they will just get up and start playing with each other so I leave them play for a while, then its competition fetch with a tennis ball in my garden for at least 30 mins. Then they get crated for a few hours, because if I don't they will just bugger about with each other for hours which will result in them not listening to a word anyone is saying.
Then they get another 20 mins down the field together just running about and venting energy. Then in the pen till after dinner. Then its a 40 min training walk with a 20 min off leash at the end by the river, either each or together depending on how I am feeling. Then it's sofa time.
At any point in the evening I could call either one of them, take them into a field with a ball and some treats and they would train again for who knows how long.
That isn't on the weekend by the way , that's every single day sunny, rainy, windy, dont matter, because if I don't they would either go mad or wreck the joint.....zzzzzzzz
I'm not lying to make friends, exaggerating things or bigging them up or anything like that. Just saying it how it is.
I'm sure it is the base of beccas weight problem but I just don't know what to do otherwise, they are the biggest pains in the arse if I don't knacker them out.
I am like a walking zombie now Luna is here

I may be burning them and myself up I think, what to do? Any suggestions/.

See this vid:

drive pup


That was my house x 2 when they were that age. I had Kath literally crying on the phone at one point when I was working away and saying they had to go. Hence the need to take them out before she gets up.She did amazingly coping with them to be honest, but she doesn't really like them as a result and I don't blame her.

I tell you what I'll do I'll make a vid featuring drive, but I need to know what you want to see.
How long for? what will be the 'criteria' to show her drive if you get me.
I think you (and the rest of the world probs) and me have a different meaning of the word drive and I need to learn it.
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Old 10-02-2012, 03:43 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Is it possible that the twins are about to come into season soon?
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Old 10-02-2012, 04:01 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Nah, I know what you mean though, they are about 3 months away.
Tilly is a total bitch when she is in season.
This is another relevant point though, Tilly has very heavy seasons, Becca hasn't had one proper one yet.
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Old 10-02-2012, 04:10 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Energy doesn't equal drive, I know lots of HIGH energy dogs, but they are not all high drive dogs
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Old 10-02-2012, 04:50 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Ok cool, thanks, what is drive?

By saying pain in the arse I am saying they constantly want to do something, with me, or kath or if we are not up for it, then each other. If tilly is in season then Becca will even start bugging the kids or in dire circumstances Bumpy the Bull terrier.

I just asked kath to call Tilly from the sofa and do some sits, downs, heeling stays and tracking round the house, at 10 oclock at night, in total about 15-20mins to see what would happen.
Is that drive?
Or is it grounds for a divorce........

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Old 10-02-2012, 05:02 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I think you'll find many answers to that question, but here is a link you might find helpful

Understanding your dog's drives — Wagging School with Kaye Hargreaves

I think Leerburg Dog Training | 16,000 pages of dog training information, 500 free dog training streaming videos, free eBooks, podcasts, by Ed Frawley and Michael Ellis probably has some good reading material too.
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Old 10-02-2012, 05:14 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Lolz, according to the first link I am clearly training the wrong dog for schutzhund.

Becca has heaps and heaps of prey drive, which according to that is why she is easily distracted.
Tilly on the other hand has good prey, fight and particularly pack drive.

So what are people seeing that makes them say they have low drive?
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:06 PM   #25 (permalink)
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With your explanations of your videos etc, you really just keep on repeating different ways in which you have probably suppressed their drives. That's great that they can work for multiple hours. But they certainly don't look 100% into it after that amount of time has passed. When I put my dogs up after training I expect them to still be wired and wanting more. I want them to push me to train them. Always. Except for occasionally during the protection work, I never get a dog out to train and then put them up and they seem tired. I put them up, and they are more wired than they were before.

Like I said before, a young dog's 'training' should be nothing but fun, fun, fun. They shouldn't think they are 'training'. They shouldn't be pushed passed their saturation point, or be rewarded and worked while drive is suppressed.
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