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Old 11-17-2012, 06:04 AM   #201 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosamburg View Post
having trained with Jogi I can tell you that he does not want eye contact in heeling. He is working from a fixed point focus, ball hid under armpit (out of sight of dog)and released as such for reward.


no i know his contact point he aims for is the shoulder - but again, to look at the shoulder and make eye contact with it, based on height most dogs need to look BACKWARDS - which puts them at an automatic forge. the dog maintains the same position well, but he is in fact forged.

for me, that would put me at an automatic disadvantage - so for me, i have my dog try to look at my face, or my mouth. that enables my dobermans to be heeling, in position, with attention, and not forged (Though to be honest, many still try to forge). i am toying with my evil collie looking at my hand at my waist, because i am finding that due to my *ahem* breasts its making him forge to have eye contact.

in addition, having an exceptionally tall dog that has to pace makes heeling in position harder - their momentum is hard to match. i heeled SO FAST in the ring with rah, it was crazy. we count our pace speed and the average person heels at 132-136 bpm, i was at 160+

weve also been discussing head position on the competition obedience page - some feel heads up is attention, but dogs CAN pay attention without it. its just something we require

my dogs position: (PLEASE ignore me in the fat pics - the one set was actually the impetus i needed for the weight loss!)


the last time i showed mercury:

heeling with no attention


forgey mcforgerston at the same trial:


the dog was high as a kite. yeah i was pissed at him, he was a total dick at this trial


rah at the all star tournament - we are starting the fast here





the fuzzy heeling


this is the position i want him in.

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Old 11-17-2012, 06:12 AM   #202 (permalink)
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the bluetailedwonder




(im currently working on taking her from my hand to my face - and the fact that it makes her forge to look up. we just started this a week ago (these pics are from the summer)
she's lagging a bit here coming out of the turn but in reality based on akc position she's not that far off - dobermans with long necks give me a larger heel position





berlin, brought out of retirement to train. and she may just be brought out of retirement again




this is my ideal




and if only fb would cooperate i could get older rah pics of him heeling. actually in position too
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:29 AM   #203 (permalink)
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Cool posts Kim, thanks!

Quote:
We've also been discussing head position on the competition obedience page - some feel heads up is attention, but dogs CAN pay attention without it. its just something we require
This is what I came on this forum believing, I still don't quite get the reason for the 'stargazing' heeling position.
If it also encourages a dog to forge like Kim and I think I remember Incredibledobe have said (I could have got that mixed up) then it's a bit silly really.
Have I got it correct that in KNPV the dogs don't attention heel?
Also in the working trials club I have been taking Tilly to they thought it was a daft thing to do.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:43 AM   #204 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Cool posts Kim, thanks!



This is what I came on this forum believing, I still don't quite get the reason for the 'stargazing' heeling position.
If it also encourages a dog to forge like Kim and I think I remember Incredibledobe have said (I could have got that mixed up) then it's a bit silly really.
Have I got it correct that in KNPV the dogs don't attention heel?
Also in the working trials club I have been taking Tilly to they thought it was a daft thing to do.
I am not sure what "working trials club" means. In schutzhund the judges, especially the top ones you are likely going to encounter in higher level competitions want focus, position, and expression. Many Schutzhund trainers have no aspiration of trialing at anything beyond a club level. I remember once when I competed with Hara in an IPO3 trial after we had already earned the title being asked why we would "go for another IPO3 title".

It takes a lot of work, focus and knowledge to get the kind of work out of the dogs that you were seeing in the video's I posted. Those 3 competitors consistently are on the podium at the top level in world championships.

I believe in AKC obedience (correct me if I am wrong) it is more about technical correctness than expression and drive in the work. Expression (animation) shows the dogs enjoy the work. In the old days (10-15 years ago) most dogs did not show this expression. A lot of this had to do with being trained in compulsion, almost exclusively. The dogs did the work but were not too happy about it.

Many of the dogs I have seen working in Ringsports don't exactly impress me with their obedience. To each their own.

Like I said it takes a lot of knowledge, work and focus to get excellent results. To each their own.
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:09 PM   #205 (permalink)
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Oh I can believe that!
To be honest I have no idea how anyone manages it at all.
The more I look into it the more impossible it seems.
There is enough work in the OB, let alone the tracking and Protection parts on top of that!

Working trials:

What are Working Trials? - The Kennel Club

Working Trials - Real Dogs

By the way the 'stargazing position is daft' was their opinion, not an expression of my opinion, just in case you got that impression.
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Old 11-17-2012, 03:10 PM   #206 (permalink)
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Yeah UK working trials is not into the heads up heeling at all! In NZ a number of the WT judges are also Test C (so OBCH level) judges, they don't expect the same level of heeling as in obedience (dog just needs to maintain position next to you) but whether they are looking up or looking around doesn't matter too much.
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Old 11-18-2012, 01:12 AM   #207 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Oh I can believe that!
To be honest I have no idea how anyone manages it at all.
The more I look into it the more impossible it seems.
There is enough work in the OB, let alone the tracking and Protection parts on top of that!

Working trials:

What are Working Trials? - The Kennel Club

Working Trials - Real Dogs

By the way the 'stargazing position is daft' was their opinion, not an expression of my opinion, just in case you got that impression.
Thanks for clarifying that. I think it is great that people do SOMETHING with their dogs, which is more than 95% of the people out there. That said, these do not appear to be super serious working dog folks. That is ok. In my earlier post I started to refer to this when mentioning that many Sch handlers, and even clubs are not so serious as well. The club I belong to happens to be extremely serious and competitive. So it is all relative in terms of what you are trying to achieve.

Like anything it is a process and can be an obsession or addiction. A little success can breed desire for more success. Many sane people might think that trying to get top results is daft. I can tell you it takes an enormous amount of dedication. Not only that you have to have the knowledge and support to achieve this. Not many people have either. I am fortunate to train with people that can give this support. Even so it takes years of training to get the awareness level to get these kind of results. It is not something you can gain in just a few years. I have been training pretty hardcore for 8 years now and feel like I am only slightly beyond the novice handler level.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:24 AM   #208 (permalink)
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Pouring down with rain so decided to attempt to get Tilly to finish on the left side rather than the right in the kitchen, she got confused at first but started to get it I think.
Also having trouble getting her to go to the front nice and tight, any tips and advice appreciated as usual.

tillykitchen


I have no idea at all how to get a tight left turn out of her because she will have to go backwards?
Help with that would spondalicious!
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:15 PM   #209 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
I have no idea at all how to get a tight left turn out of her because she will have to go backwards?
Help with that would spondalicious!
You mean a left turn where she will take a step back and kinda pivot? (queen of good explanations of stuff here....). I taught Elsie by first teaching rear end awareness (which we do for agility anyway) with some shaping exercises that involve placing rear feet separately onto things, balancing rear feet on the edge of a box, walking through a ladder placed flat on the ground, pivoting around a box with front feet placed on it. I then taught left turns by getting her in heel position next to a wall, and took a step back so she had to step back with me, reward, repeat! Eventually move away from the wall, then add in the left turn... Easy Peesy! (hope this was what you were asking for...)
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:49 PM   #210 (permalink)
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That was exactly what I was looking for!
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Old 11-22-2012, 01:19 PM   #211 (permalink)
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Out for a walk in the park in the city and decided to have a go at learning Tilly down in motion, here is a vid, nothing serious just did it on a whim, I think I need to use a target as she kept losing the ball in the grass,

TDIM


Edit: she didn't wanna play bring the ball back today
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Old 11-24-2012, 02:04 PM   #212 (permalink)
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It seems like you keep changing the spot around, moving around, moving her around, etc. This has to be confusing for a dog just learning with it means. I would pick on spot in a session, and always have the ball there. Slowly increase the distance between the two, by moving the dog from the ball, ball should be stationary.

Another thing to try while increasing the distance. Is not sending her from your side. For instance, you can have the ball 20 yards away from where she in a down. She stand near the ball, give her the command and she is released. Then you take 5ft closer to the dog, ball in same spot, give her the command and she runs by you to get it.

There are quite a few things you can try, but one thing I would definitely do is not keeping moving the ball around in one session. Have the target be the same.
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