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Old 11-15-2012, 08:10 AM   #176 (permalink)
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Well I took Tilly out really early this morning, I was half asleep, she wasn't, lol, Ob was alright but her bite came back! Went back to one of her old tugs and a mix of my own old method and anything I could remember in my bed-fuddled state and some how it worked.
Silly mule won't out now!

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And here for your amusement is a vid showing exactly how asleep I was...Ouch!

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That feckin brained me good and proper, had to take a 5min standstill to stop my head swimming after I turned the camera off. No sympathy whatsoever tilly was just trying to kill my hat! ! Ah well revenge for the jumping incident I suppose,

And before anyone starts shouting I didn't kick her when she was trying to eat the otter turd in the first vid, I shoved her with my whole shin, just in time I might add, I think she thought it was breakfast.

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Old 11-16-2012, 04:56 AM   #177 (permalink)
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could someone have a squint at this vid and tell me any faults they see, I need to get an idea of what I am aiming for.
thanks!

IPO
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:41 AM   #178 (permalink)
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I would not expect this routine under a tough judge to make it out of the "good" range-mid 80's score at best.

1. Significant handler help with that much arm swinging as well as the weird about turn in the first heeling segment.
2. Attentiveness is decent but dog leaves her side somewhat in places.
3. Slow sit out of motion
4. dog anticipates or slow down out of motion, mediocre speed level (at least in video, which sometimes can be difficult to tell whether dog is not super fast or video slows down).
5. takes 3 steps in stand out of motion, again mediocre recall, slow to mediocre speed on finishes.
6. poor pickup on the first throw, mediocre at best return to handler, goes out of position on heeling portion after each retrieve exercise.
7. terrible throw on jump, which led to dog having no chance to show speed on pickup and return, poor pickup on jump. dog goes out of position on finish of exercise.
8. horrible pick up on dumbell after going over scaling wall. Overall the dog slows at best mediocre returns to handler on all of retrieves. I forgot to look at how good the holds were on dumbell, it is difficult to tell on video anyway.
9. the send out was unsatisfactory. She would have lost most of the 10 points for that exercise.
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:57 AM   #179 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rosamburg View Post
I would not expect this routine under a tough judge to make it out of the "good" range-mid 80's score at best.

1. Significant handler help with that much arm swinging as well as the weird about turn in the first heeling segment.
2. Attentiveness is decent but dog leaves her side somewhat in places.
3. Slow sit out of motion
4. dog anticipates or slow down out of motion, mediocre speed level (at least in video, which sometimes can be difficult to tell whether dog is not super fast or video slows down).
5. takes 3 steps in stand out of motion, again mediocre recall, slow to mediocre speed on finishes.
6. poor pickup on the first throw, mediocre at best return to handler, goes out of position on heeling portion after each retrieve exercise.
7. terrible throw on jump, which led to dog having no chance to show speed on pickup and return, poor pickup on jump. dog goes out of position on finish of exercise.
8. horrible pick up on dumbell after going over scaling wall. Overall the dog slows at best mediocre returns to handler on all of retrieves. I forgot to look at how good the holds were on dumbell, it is difficult to tell on video anyway.
9. the send out was unsatisfactory. She would have lost most of the 10 points for that exercise.
The score at the end was listed as 78. If the dog broke the long down as it appears from the photos at the end, then I'd call that score a gift.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:04 AM   #180 (permalink)
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could someone have a squint at this vid and tell me any faults they see, I need to get an idea of what I am aiming for.
thanks!

IPO
By the time argo is an IPO 3 (if I keep him that long), I would expect much better obedience.

Rosamburg of course nailed everything points wise. I personally do not like the way he was trained 'focus heeling'. Zeus holds his head that way because his conformation makes it physically impossible for him to look completely up at me. Not sure if that's the case with this dog, but the dog is simply turning his head inwards, and really only looking at the person through the corner of their eye. This is fine and all, but I'd really expect better from my own. More than a couple times he goes very flat and does not look like he's enjoying it at all. That retrieve, jump, and wall was all over the place as well. The voraus he has no drive or intention/purpose to run out whatsoever. Another poor example.

Granted the dog had enough to pass, but I certainly would not be 'aiming' for that performance. I'd say that 78 score is probably deserved.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:23 AM   #181 (permalink)
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The score at the end was listed as 78. If the dog broke the long down as it appears from the photos at the end, then I'd call that score a gift.
I just assumed full points on the long down. To be honest I lost interest and shut her down after the spins on the send out.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:24 AM   #182 (permalink)
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I have a question about the handler. Is that sort of exaggerated arm movement typical of schutzhund? Because if that was AKC obedience, the handler would have lost at ton of points for moving her arms that way, and cueing the turns to the dog by throwing her elbow out.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:28 AM   #183 (permalink)
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a glance at some of the best

VDH DM 2012 mit Knut Fuchs, Jogi Zank und Thomas Groß vom DMC Leichlingen - YouTube

My favorite Schutzhund Obedience handler is Jogi (Jurgen) Zank. He is the big guy with long blond hair in the video. I looked for video clips of this years WUSV where he was high in obedience with 98. That is a clip I would like to see. If you get a chance to do a seminar with him it is well worth it.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:38 AM   #184 (permalink)
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I have a question about the handler. Is that sort of exaggerated arm movement typical of schutzhund? Because if that was AKC obedience, the handler would have lost at ton of points for moving her arms that way, and cueing the turns to the dog by throwing her elbow out.
Swinging your arms is normal and part of it. Cueing before a turn however is not. Lol don't get me started on akc stuff. I've got 2 dogs right now who look like they're heeling is amazing if your allowed to hold your left hand in that position. As soon as you start swinging you arms down by the side there goes that attention span thing. So many people come to training and brag about how well their dog is heeling. You tell them to let their arms down naturally by their side and all of a sudden that dog doesn't actially know what real heeling is
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:39 AM   #185 (permalink)
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I have a question about the handler. Is that sort of exaggerated arm movement typical of schutzhund? Because if that was AKC obedience, the handler would have lost at ton of points for moving her arms that way, and cueing the turns to the dog by throwing her elbow out.
Under a judge who follows the rules they would lose points for handler help. I think in years past it was more allowed or at least more overlooked.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:44 AM   #186 (permalink)
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Swinging your arms is normal and part of it.
Not that much. You have to realize a lot of judges let a lot of stuff slide. My mentor says that often when he is judging, especially "in the States", people look at him like he is from Mars when he calls them on stuff. For example he tells them to walk normal when laying tracks instead of stomping in a track and he gets told they never heard of such a thing.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:46 AM   #187 (permalink)
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:55 AM   #188 (permalink)
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Swinging your arms is normal and part of it. Cueing before a turn however is not. Lol don't get me started on akc stuff. I've got 2 dogs right now who look like they're heeling is amazing if your allowed to hold your left hand in that position. As soon as you start swinging you arms down by the side there goes that attention span thing. So many people come to training and brag about how well their dog is heeling. You tell them to let their arms down naturally by their side and all of a sudden that dog doesn't actially know what real heeling is
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Not that much. You have to realize a lot of judges let a lot of stuff slide. My mentor says that often when he is judging, especially "in the States", people look at him like he is from Mars when he calls them on stuff. For example he tells them to walk normal when laying tracks instead of stomping in a track and he gets told they never heard of such a thing.
Thanks to both of you.

Asmit, yes, I agree that moving your arms is normal. However, the handler was throwing her arms out almost to shoulder height. I do hold my arm next to my body while heeling Ilka off-lead, because she has a tendency to start jumping up and nipping if I have my arm down. Lots of AKC dogs (for good or bad, depending on your point of view) are taught that the hand is their focus spot while heeling.

Rosamburg, yes I can see the difference between the handlers in the vid you showed, and the one Matt showed. Much quieter hands, and less "body English".
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:57 PM   #189 (permalink)
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You arms are supposed to be moving in a natural manner which involves swinging. Never said what she did is right, but I don't think what she did is a natural manner at all.

And yeah I know that is how you are supposed to be in akc, I just personally thinks its dumb. No rule maker is asking me though
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:31 PM   #190 (permalink)
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I would not expect this routine under a tough judge to make it out of the "good" range-mid 80's score at best.

1. Significant handler help with that much arm swinging as well as the weird about turn in the first heeling segment.
2. Attentiveness is decent but dog leaves her side somewhat in places.
3. Slow sit out of motion
4. dog anticipates or slow down out of motion, mediocre speed level (at least in video, which sometimes can be difficult to tell whether dog is not super fast or video slows down).
5. takes 3 steps in stand out of motion, again mediocre recall, slow to mediocre speed on finishes.
6. poor pickup on the first throw, mediocre at best return to handler, goes out of position on heeling portion after each retrieve exercise.
7. terrible throw on jump, which led to dog having no chance to show speed on pickup and return, poor pickup on jump. dog goes out of position on finish of exercise.
8. horrible pick up on dumbell after going over scaling wall. Overall the dog slows at best mediocre returns to handler on all of retrieves. I forgot to look at how good the holds were on dumbell, it is difficult to tell on video anyway.
9. the send out was unsatisfactory. She would have lost most of the 10 points for that exercise.
YES! I think I am getting the hang of this, I spotted most of that!

The about turn is wacky, I had to watch it a few times to see what exactly was happening.
Would it be cool if I post up other vids and you guys take them to bits?
I think it is easier for me to learn 'how not to do it' if you get me, because there are so many vids of this stuff out there and I am not sure if it is good or bad due to my lack of experience.
Obviously watching ones that I have been told are good as well but its like watching something right and being asked by someone 'What could be wrong in this vid?'
I'm basically clueless.

By the way I am having terrible difficulty with the arm moving thing.
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:52 PM   #191 (permalink)
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I've tried to walk normally with arms swinging when I heel with Elsie (think it looks better) but I keep hitting her in the head :S
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Old 11-16-2012, 01:57 PM   #192 (permalink)
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YES! I think I am getting the hang of this, I spotted most of that!

The about turn is wacky, I had to watch it a few times to see what exactly was happening.
Would it be cool if I post up other vids and you guys take them to bits?
I think it is easier for me to learn 'how not to do it' if you get me, because there are so many vids of this stuff out there and I am not sure if it is good or bad due to my lack of experience.

Obviously watching ones that I have been told are good as well but its like watching something right and being asked by someone 'What could be wrong in this vid?'
I'm basically clueless.

By the way I am having terrible difficulty with the arm moving thing.
I think it's sort of in poor form to post up others people's videos on a thread for public critiques, especially when you're looking for the negative / what not to do. If you want to do that, then find someone willing to converse with you and do it privately via PM, email, IM, phone call, etc.
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:38 PM   #193 (permalink)
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Good thinking batman, you up for it?

Having said that if it was my vid, I would be glad of the constructive criticism in order to learn better, besides I thought a trial was a public test?
Then again I genuinely don't care what peoples opinions are of me, so rarely take offence, in case people hadn't noticed, so find it difficult to get my head around being pissed off about the idea.

Thanks you probably saved me an ear bashing!

By the way, in the vid that Rosamburg put up at 1:17 is that wacky about turn again.
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Old 11-16-2012, 03:50 PM   #194 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnh317 View Post
I think it's sort of in poor form to post up others people's videos on a thread for public critiques, especially when you're looking for the negative / what not to do. If you want to do that, then find someone willing to converse with you and do it privately via PM, email, IM, phone call, etc.
Indeed. I would much rather watch someone out there competing and doing a less than stellar job, than people making comments on the sidelines. Usually the ones talking the most on the sidelines are the ones who are on the field the least. It can however be helpful to watch and learn. That said, I sure would not want much of my trial performances to be on the web.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:54 PM   #195 (permalink)
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By the way, in the vid that Rosamburg put up at 1:17 is that wacky about turn again.
What's "wacky" about it? It looks like a perfectly normal left about turn to me.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:21 PM   #196 (permalink)
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reel heeling?
how is the heeling my dogs are taught any more or less real than anyone elses?

our hands are held up because hands on the OUTSIDE of the dogs head are an illegal hand position in the AKC. plain and simple. and for those of us with larger dogs, we cannot put our hands down without hitting them.

also remember in terms of head position, the akc also dictates what heel position is - most of the dogs in these videos are forging (even if they have nice attention). most dogs cannot make straight up heads up heeling with eye contact without being in FRONT of the handler and looking backwards (as that black GSD does, for instance) - so our dogs need to look up and to the side to some degree to accommodate being in heel AND being attentive. it takes a specific height of both dog and handler to make it work with a straight up head most of us don't have that
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:53 PM   #197 (permalink)
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Geez, I'm glad I don't have videos of my dogs trialing on the web...this sure is a tough crowd.

I actually like that dog...probably more if she lost a few pounds. Is she a top working dog? No...but that's one of the reasons I'm glad IPO is pointed instead of pass/fail. My dobe isn't worlds quality, but neither am I...so I take points where I need help.


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I've tried to walk normally with arms swinging when I heel with Elsie (think it looks better) but I keep hitting her in the head :S
I know IPO says your supposed to walk with your arms in a normal position, and I've heard judges critique on that...but I heel with my hands up (like I'm power walking). I can heel with my hands down but I feel like I'm interfering more with my dog that way. I haven't had any judges actually take off points for it...I lost enough points in other areas anyway!
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:58 PM   #198 (permalink)
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reel heeling?
- most of the dogs in these videos are forging (even if they have nice attention). most dogs cannot make straight up heads up heeling with eye contact without being in FRONT of the handler and looking backwards (as that black GSD does, for instance) - so our dogs need to look up and to the side to some degree to accommodate being in heel AND being attentive. it takes a specific height of both dog and handler to make it work with a straight up head most of us don't have that
having trained with Jogi I can tell you that he does not want eye contact in heeling. He is working from a fixed point focus, ball hid under armpit (out of sight of dog)and released as such for reward.
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:19 AM   #199 (permalink)
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What's "wacky" about it? It looks like a perfectly normal left about turn to me.
Knute Fuch's finish with the mali is fine. The go around finish is perfectly legitimate, I was referring to the dip.

I also got some clarification on arm swinging. I asked my mentor who is a long term world class judge (has judged at the WUSV world championships on 2 occasions) what the cost is in terms of points. The first thing he said was that many judges would not probably dock much if anything, especially at a club level trial.

However, he said in judging at the major championship level, that with any exercise with that much arm swinging, the MOST that should be awarded would be "good". So in other words if everything else was perfect a 10 point exercise would go down to 7.5 points. Which would essentially be a 1 to 2 level downgrade. If you add up all the exercises that amounts to major point deductions.
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:24 AM   #200 (permalink)
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Geez, I'm glad I don't have videos of my dogs trialing on the web...this sure is a tough crowd.
I agree, though it is helpful for understanding proper handling. Video of my handling skills would look worse than that I am sure.

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I know IPO says your supposed to walk with your arms in a normal position, and I've heard judges critique on that...but I heel with my hands up (like I'm power walking). I can heel with my hands down but I feel like I'm interfering more with my dog that way. I haven't had any judges actually take off points for it...I lost enough points in other areas anyway!
I watched a person competing on a national level and made the podium with hand action like you describe. I also heard a judge comment that at the world championships that type of handling would likely cost the handler a lot.
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