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Old 07-21-2012, 12:59 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Dobermans no good for Schutzhund.

I went to a Schutzhund club today which was great, The dogs and handlers there were very skilled and experienced indeed.
Only thing that perplexed me was that they told me that dobermans were no good for Schutzhund.
This was not said with any malice at all so dont get the wrong idea they just said to me I would be better off with a GSD.
Their GSD's were AMAZING to watch.
Thoughts anyone?

I'm still going to do it with the Twins, I have faith in them.
I took it as it was, experienced advice.
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Old 07-21-2012, 01:13 PM   #2 (permalink)
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That's quite a common opinion in the UK Schutz scene from what I have seen and from talking to people. Some people have the opinion if it's not a GSD or mal it can't compete.

There are still people who train, though not very many.
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Old 07-21-2012, 01:14 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I really like this article.

why dobermans are different

You will see a lot more GSD's on the field for sure. But we do have amazing IPO dobermanns, even here on this forum. Check out Landgrafs male Eiko, he is kicking butt and taking names!

vom Landgraf
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Old 07-21-2012, 01:31 PM   #4 (permalink)
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No matter where you go people always say the same thing! While I agree there are a lot of nerve bag Dobermans out there doing the sport. There are some half decent dogs to. I think if you want to be super competitive in the sport you are going to have a hard time finding a great Doberman to do so. Just by shear numbers alone good Shepherds are easier to find.

I love the sport but I also love my breed of choice. I also like a challenge so doing it well with a Doberman will surly be rewarding.

I also think that if you want to learn more about the sport and your dogs train and compete with them. Just find a club that is fair to your dogs and doesn't train heavy handed AND that will except the breed.
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Old 07-21-2012, 01:38 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Let it be your motivation to work hard
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Old 07-21-2012, 01:42 PM   #6 (permalink)
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That article is great but it doesn't explain how these changes to training should be made.

Visiting the club really opened my eyes to some comments in another thread made by a dude about BYB.
I can appreciate where he was coming from alot more now.

I had noticed it VERY difficult for instance to get a Doberman to really HEEL close in like those dogs were doing today like rubbing the handlers leg.
From what I can gather this is very highly regarded in SChutzhund.
The attention the dogs were paying to the owners face is also something I have never seen in any of my Dobes, yes they are paying attention to me and what I want them to do, but they have been also payed attention to whats going on around us, not necessarily reacting to it but being aware of it. Obviously this is great for a real life protection/security dog but not so for a Schutzhund dog.
I may have got the wrong end of the stick with that one by the way, this is my first real interaction with Schutzhund and Schutzhund enthusiasts other than just watching displays/demos and vids.
Amazingly that article was very fascinating for me being a terrier guy.....lolz

Anyone got any links to vids of dobermans actually doing Schutzhund, like the whole thing not just protection?
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Old 07-21-2012, 01:43 PM   #7 (permalink)
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ps..if this dog can do it, a doberman definitely can

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Old 07-21-2012, 01:45 PM   #8 (permalink)
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This is just heeling, but I've always like this video and the dog's focus


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Old 07-21-2012, 01:46 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Yay! I answered my own request!

Sch 3 Doberman ' schutzhund, heeling,working dogs, b - YouTube

Well that gives me hope lolz.

Hahaha same vid, how did you embed it like that?
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Old 07-21-2012, 01:47 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I know Aritaur, a breeder in the UK, do/have trained in the sport. I'm not really sure how far they are from you, but maybe it would be worth giving them a call and asking about their club? They might be able to make some recommendations.
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Old 07-21-2012, 01:55 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Thanks.
Yes one of the dudes at the club mentioned this.
Like I said they weren't 'dissing' dobermans, they were all Fab people and it was a very good set up there.
They were just giving me the benefit of their experience.
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Old 07-21-2012, 03:52 PM   #12 (permalink)
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This is my little girls sire and dam, Eiko v. Landgraf Sch.3, at the 2012 AWDF Championship Eiko v. Landgraf AWDF 2012 Obedience - YouTube

I can't seem to find Gamy's video's I think they might have been removed. But here is another nice team at the IDC Championship.IDC 2010 - Vrbové - YouTube

It's all in the training, of course your dog must have very good drive.
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Old 07-21-2012, 04:09 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Heelwork like that isn't that hard to achieve, most breeds can do it. In NZ it is the only heeling that will get you anywhere in competitive obedience, if you can't do that then you won't get out of Special beginners/Novice level - and lots of dogs of different breeds have gotten out!
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Old 07-21-2012, 04:28 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
I went to a Schutzhund club today which was great, The dogs and handlers there were very skilled and experienced indeed.
Only thing that perplexed me was that they told me that dobermans were no good for Schutzhund.
This was not said with any malice at all so dont get the wrong idea they just said to me I would be better off with a GSD.
Their GSD's were AMAZING to watch.
Thoughts anyone?

I'm still going to do it with the Twins, I have faith in them.
I took it as it was, experienced advice.
Go to youtube search "Ottomac dobermann" review the videos, italian dog, pedigree with non traditional working dobermann lines. The Italians have dominated the IDC for the last few years. Some good dobes coming out of the Ukraine as well, coming from non tradional working lines. There is really no comparison between Forrell dogs and the new breed of Schutzhund dobes coming out of Italy and the Ukraine these days. Schutzhund has evolved the trainers, training techniques are much better. Mike Ellis advises his customers interested in Schutzhund to look at the the world championship videos from 15 years ago and compare them with the videos from the last few years "the difference is jaw dropping". That being said Langraf a dobe breeder/competitor from California has done well with traditional working line dobes such the dogs Forrell still breeds.

Last edited by prince; 07-21-2012 at 04:35 PM..
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Old 07-21-2012, 04:41 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
This was not said with any malice at all so dont get the wrong idea they just said to me I would be better off with a GSD.
Their GSD's were AMAZING to watch.
Thoughts anyone?

.
Check out ivan balabanov Schutzhund videos on youtube, his malinois is back to back world champion winner, and he currently has pups available for sale.
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Old 07-21-2012, 04:45 PM   #16 (permalink)
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To embed youtube videos--

Copy the url
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Then change the format
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[youtube=yourlabel]9XBtAOB4o9I[/youtube]
(Do you see what I did--take that string of numbers and letters after the equal sign in the url and stick it in between the bracketed tags.)


And then you should see:

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Old 07-21-2012, 11:30 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Buddy's dad was Gino he was awarded the German Krong a few years ago.Bouviers also can do Schutzhund even know a lady that had her Dachshund do all the tracking and obedience at a Schutzhund trial. Any dog can do it if you put the work in.
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Old 07-22-2012, 07:42 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Dobermans in Schutzhund

I have had the pleasure of owning several dobermans over the years. My primary interest with them is in performance and my chosen sport is schutzhund.

During my first few years (2 before I got a working line pup) whilst I researched and learned everything I possibly could about the sport AND the breed - I stumbled across this article. It is, IMHO a decent place to start reading about some good personality traits that you would want in a schutzhund dog. It is on a doberman breeders website as well - and he has some other good info posted as well you can check out if you are interested.

Cara Dobermans: Alisa

After working dogs in the sport for 3 years now, I do not feel as thought it is an exhaustive list, but if you are still quite new to the breed and sport, get out there, learn as much as possible about everything. :-) Always listen to what people have to say - You do not have to agree with them, but it is part of the information gathering process.

Go out to clubs and watch regular training, speak with members, go to trials and chat with people. Learning about the sport is so much more then just reading on the internet what people post on forums, blogs, training sites etc. (although those can have usefulness as well, sometimes newbies can be overwhelmed and confused with the oodles of info and sometimes contradictory information).

There are nice working dobes out there, they certainly do not seem to be the "norm". It is far easier to find a dobe that may only be successful in obedience or tracking. Which for me is not enough.

Several of some more well known working dobes have been posted on this thread already - look them up, look at their pedigrees and their titles.

Enjoy the journey, it is not easy, can be exhausting and sometimes you feel like it is overwhelming, but when you have a nice working dog and you are out there training/trialing as a team together - I can honestly tell you, it is 100% worth it!
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Old 07-22-2012, 08:44 AM   #19 (permalink)
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GSDs have the same problem many other breeds do...most are bad ones that look like good ones and a few actually good ones. There are just more of them compared to other breeds. No doubt, they are one of the most popular if not the most popular for schutzhund, but they are also a whole different cup of tea and require a different training style, most of which I don't enjoy. I want a dog that is "there" and thinking on the field with me...not one that has so much freakin' ball drive it would try to run through a brick wall to get the ball. Honestly, I think they are popular because they are easier to train as most "trainers" (and I use that term lightly) use compulsion and other breeds won't tolerate it. ...but I could be wrong.

Now a Malinois I would enjoy, they are smart and high energy...love that...except for the double coat.

I probably have two of the most unpopular breeds in the schutzhund world. I have a doberman who is a great obedience and tracking dog...bitework is just not developed yet (may never be). He isn't from working lines so the bitework could be a struggle for him. My Bouvier on the other hand, is fantastic. He's tough, but so much fun. My training director has bred Bouviers and Mals for over 40 years, obviously since they breed, we have mostly Bouvs at the club and they are all better in protection than all the other breeds.

Even though I love the Bouvs, I will always have a doberman (and from now on, one from working lines). Saying a dobe can't do schutzhund is such BS, they can do it, and do it well.
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Old 07-22-2012, 09:08 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
That article is great but it doesn't explain how these changes to training should be made.

Visiting the club really opened my eyes to some comments in another thread made by a dude about BYB.
I can appreciate where he was coming from alot more now.

I had noticed it VERY difficult for instance to get a Doberman to really HEEL close in like those dogs were doing today like rubbing the handlers leg.
From what I can gather this is very highly regarded in SChutzhund.
The attention the dogs were paying to the owners face is also something I have never seen in any of my Dobes, yes they are paying attention to me and what I want them to do, but they have been also payed attention to whats going on around us, not necessarily reacting to it but being aware of it. Obviously this is great for a real life protection/security dog but not so for a Schutzhund dog.
I may have got the wrong end of the stick with that one by the way, this is my first real interaction with Schutzhund and Schutzhund enthusiasts other than just watching displays/demos and vids.
Amazingly that article was very fascinating for me being a terrier guy.....lolz

Anyone got any links to vids of dobermans actually doing Schutzhund, like the whole thing not just protection?

To the bolded, your dogs have never 'focused like that' or 'heeled' like that in the past, because they were never trained to

I got my dog as an abused adult who would not look anyone in the eye. He now happily heels practically on top of me while watching me.
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Old 07-22-2012, 04:59 PM   #21 (permalink)
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To the bolded, your dogs have never 'focused like that' or 'heeled' like that in the past, because they were never trained to
Yup all just a matter of training

The video below is a dog winning at special beginners level obedience in New Zealand. This level of obedience is only for people who have never competed in obedience before, working with dogs who have never won anything in obedience before. Some of the dogs I have seen win out include Cocker Spaniels and Cavs, so Dobes can certainly manage it very easily! The dogs that have issues with this sort of heeling tend to be the little ones, it's a lot harder for them physically... A lot of little dog people will only show under judges that have little dogs, so they know how hard it is to get little dogs heeling that close to you... No problem for the biggies though!!
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Old 07-22-2012, 05:54 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Here is Beccas first attempt........

Becca heeling with attention? lolz


I think I'm too laid back for this,
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Old 07-22-2012, 07:25 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Here is Beccas first attempt........

I think I'm too laid back for this,

No, thats actually good! Instead of picking the treat out of your pocket and handing it to her, I would hold it in my hand up on my chest so that you get better focus on you instead of the treat bag. Do short little sessions with lots of energy so she gets excited about the work.

I added a video of some heeling work from a couple months ago. The Bouvier is only a puppy so he is constantly nibbling the food in my hand as I heel and introduce him to the group...now he is heeling for longer sessions with focus on me and getting the reward. The dobe is at the end, you can see how I hold the food up close to my face. I give a "yes" reward marker right before he gets the food. Now he is starting to heel with the food out of sight because he knows what heeling is and has been taught that "yes" means a reward is coming.

video
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Old 07-22-2012, 09:26 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_discowhore View Post
Yup all just a matter of training

The video below is a dog winning at special beginners level obedience in New Zealand. This level of obedience is only for people who have never competed in obedience before, working with dogs who have never won anything in obedience before. Some of the dogs I have seen win out include Cocker Spaniels and Cavs, so Dobes can certainly manage it very easily! The dogs that have issues with this sort of heeling tend to be the little ones, it's a lot harder for them physically... A lot of little dog people will only show under judges that have little dogs, so they know how hard it is to get little dogs heeling that close to you... No problem for the biggies though!!
spbegs
While I agree a lot is training, muscle memory, and motivating. The dog must have drive. If there is no drive then heeling will be more just like a walk in the park. Your dog might be looking at you but you want your dog driving from behind. Training with food, a ball, toy, or whatever turns his or her crank will help bring up the drive.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:40 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Okie-dobie View Post
While I agree a lot is training, muscle memory, and motivating. The dog must have drive. If there is no drive then heeling will be more just like a walk in the park. Your dog might be looking at you but you want your dog driving from behind. Training with food, a ball, toy, or whatever turns his or her crank will help bring up the drive.
Coming from someone who's dog has little to no drive, I can not agree with this more!! The dogs I have helped train to 'foos' with drive have heelwork that is night and day to my personal dog. I am having to constantly use and try different methods to keep him driving from behind and engaged rather than just watching me and walking.

For the dog like this, you've got to build it up, very very slowly. I used to only ask for one or two steps. If he wasn't cutting it that day and was not driving from behind or truly focused, I wouldn't heel and instead work on engagement. He has decent food drive, but that only gets him so far. He feeds so much off of my energy, and I have to be 10x more exciting for him to be at all excited about it.

To the OP, it looks like you've got the basics of him watching you down, but I would use smaller increments and make it a faster-paced, fun type of game to get the dog really going. Length will come, but the drive behind heeling is more important to me than how far or how long he can heel without losing focus.
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