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Old 08-22-2012, 10:30 AM   #126 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Dictator View Post
Dobermans were not used as much by Law Enforcement due to cost.

The Dobermans coat was also a factor.

German Shepherds were plentiful and many times were just given to Police Departments.

The same holds true today possibly not on the cost end of it; but, German Shepherds are more plentiful; and, there are seem to be more working Breeders Although Police Departments now are using the Belgian Malinois more.

During the 2nd World War when Germany tested Dogs for the War Effort the top Breed tested was the Airdale Terrier 33% qualified. The 2nd Breed was the Dobermann with 32%.
I would wonder for what purpose they were testing for?? Where did this study come from? Different dogs would be used for different purposes. If you had a fixed installation you would want a different type dog (a dog that would alert to threat, not necessarily defend against attack) than if you were say out on patrol and did not want a dog to give away your position but would likely defend against an attack and/or be highly aggressive for an attack type situation. The first scenario would tend to call for a more fear based dog who will light up at the first threat. The second scenario for a harder but more aggressive dog that does not see movement or sound as a threat. The same is true in today's world. You would want the first type dog for a "security dog" and the second as a street dog.
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Old 08-22-2012, 11:16 AM   #127 (permalink)
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There were also messenger dogs, carting dogs and dogs that searched for wounded. Don’t know if the Germans trained any suicide dogs, but the Soviets did; and dogs were tried at mine detection. Undoubtedly the German .mil had a whole bunch of things they attempted to use dogs for besides bite work. I wonder if they had several different selection processes, or if they had a 'universal' criteria? Any historians know?
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Old 08-22-2012, 05:43 PM   #128 (permalink)
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It is a pretty picture. A Dobermann is usually pretty aware of its environment. It is a test of how well a dog can maintain drive and focus. It is a test of how well a dog can work under distraction.

thanks I was unable to figure that out on my own. I have always thought that it appeared very difficult to walk with the dog in that position, but this is still part of the reason I am having trouble talking myself into shutz for Caesar, I am looking more toward personal protect training. To each their own i guess.
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:30 PM   #129 (permalink)
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Regardless of what focal point is being used, the focused heeling where the dog is concentrating on the handler instead of looking around is for competition/points/trialing. It is not for everyday "heeling" or patrolling, loose leash walking, etc.

The same dog can be taught both focused heeling and regular walking. If I get around to it I'll post a couple videos of the same dog doing each type of "heeling". Perhaps someone better at videos can post instead.
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Old 08-23-2012, 07:47 AM   #130 (permalink)
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Why in the world would anyone take the time to respond intelligenty to such dribble when it is the intention of the op too be a provocateur and simply beyond the comprehension of others to think for themselves basing their opinions on what they've been told by a select few.

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The thread is pointless from this perspective, schutzund is a sport of man.

The op could could acquire a malinois puppy from the finest working lines , *train the dog at his local schutzund club under the tuitilege of their best trainers and in 4 years enter himself and the dog for competition against the competitors of the 2016 IDC world championship and in reality fail to place/score in the top 25.

Point being irrespective of breed this would be the handlers faiilure, the failure of his trainers not the dog or the breeds.
This is the aim of the original post to find out if this is the case.

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The op opened the discussion with comment based on hearsay.

You yourself wrote ... why we so often hear that “Dobermann's are no good for Schutzhund"

Who did they hear it from? Are these their experiences or are they simply just parroting something they heard from someone else? ops comment is vague with no qualifiers

Lots of misinformation out there! the post is an example of this

People say a lot things, some where in middle lies the truth, despite there being an abundance of contradicting evidence they'll keep parroting something they've heard from someone else. I live in small town and you wouldn't, couldn't believe some of the crap these clowns float around here as the gospel truth, its something of an embarrassment.
I am beginning to wonder if you can actually read as well as type, in my original post it describes where the question originated. From a Schutzhund club which is possibly one of the best in this country.

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Todays results of 2012 German Schutzund (IPO) *allbreed championship. Top score was 289.

Roman Schneider with Oscar vom Aurachgrund accomplished 8. place at the VDH Championship (99, 92, 93, 284, VG).

Oscar was the only Dobermann of 55 dogs.

See link.

http://vdh-dm-2012.de/app/download/5...eida-Platz.pdf

Note: Oscar placed 2nd at the 2012 IDC Worlds scored 287.

Only 1 german shepherd scored higher and that was by only one point with a score of 285, mals took the top three spots with scores of 289, 288, 288 respectively. Good chance Ottomac 1st place winner of IDC worlds three years in a row would have cracked the top three spots if he'd been entered.

The notion that dobs are no good at the german sport of schutzund IPO is hilarious.
Why didn't you just post this instead of that bunch of arse up there?

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Asmit, Ask your trainer? where she gets her information, her knowledge must solely be based on her experience at the local GSD club (circles) this thread is like watching a hound dog barking up the wrong tree, way too funny.
If you have nothing constructive to add then please bark off out of my thread.

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When did myself or adhahn or anyone else outside of the OP say that we agree Dobermans are no good at the sport of IPO. LOL. There are more good GSD dogs than there are Dobermanns, proven by factual numbers. We are asking why this is. We are also asking why the general public feels that Dobermanns are not good working dogs. Please read everything, and get a translator if you do not understand, because with this comment, you do not seem to understand what anyone is saying.

ETA: If anyone is lurking and has differing opinions/answers to questions presented, please comment with such
I never said I thought they were no good, I was asking the question.

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Kind of funny that Airedales were evidently used rather extensively for police work at one time. When was the last time you saw an Airedale that was a working police dog? I know a few police forces still use Bouvier, but not too many. From what I've read about Hovawart, they always seemed more of an all-purpose farm dog (kind of like a Swissie), rather than a protection dog.
Interestingly my Dobermans are from a line of working Police dogs, a very rare occurrence in the UK these days

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Although it doesn't speak much of the aggression, considering the thread turned to the history of Dobermanns, I found this article interesting. Wish it was more informative, but it was a good read! Info Library > The influence of the Manchester Terrier on the Dobermann
As I have said in this thread or another thread I always pick my pups for their Manchester terrier characteristics, I personally find them better more trainable dogs than 'proper' dobermans that is my opinion so dont bother flaming. Having said that of the two I have now, Becca the more 'Doberman' of them learns much slower but way more effectively.

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Originally Posted by Rosamburg View Post
It is faulty for a dog to be rubbing their handlers leg while heeling. We have moved away from wanting attention to the handler's face for this very reason. The video later in the thread shows why. If the dog is watching the handler's face it will probably not be able to heel straight. It will be crooked in the basic position and while heeling, which is faulty. That is the reason top trainers like Jogi Zank and Bart Bellon use fixed position focus.. generally with a ball under their armpit.
This makes me happy I was about to start training them to do just this, thank you for this information I will continue training as I was.

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Glad to see you pop into the thread! Want to take a stab at the question of WHY? Why is this? I realize that historically Dobermanns were never as popular as GSD’s. I’m no expert but it certainly appears that at one time there was higher percentage of Dobermann’s in Police work and sports than there are now. Why? What happened and will it ever change?
I am also interested, as said above my Dogs came from a line of working police dogs through a strange way. Their Grandfather was the last one as he baulked at entering a pitch dark room and was retired, the new owner started breeding from him.

I am happy that some people that really know what they are talking about have joined in this conversation.

I decided to think about starting Schutzhund for something for my dogs to do. As we have moved into an area that doesn't require protection trained dogs I was toying with the idea of not doing it with these dogs (we have a history of protection training dogs in our family for generations although it wouldn't have been called that way back then, it was just dog training).
I don't think I will be going into schutzhund although I rather think that at least one of my dogs would be very good for it.
Instead I am going to do the training informally for myself and my dogs and see how it goes. Not everyone is interested in titles.
For anyone interested, to give some background I have been training dogs since I was 10 (28 years) and protection training for 20 years, its a family tradition and my sons have started learning also (not protection I wont do that till they are 18).
I don't train in anyway like Schutzhund with strict positions and scoreable behaviours, but rather for usefull skills that help people have normal dogs, not knocking Schutzhund at all with this comment.
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Old 08-29-2012, 03:41 PM   #131 (permalink)
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Becca yesterday

becca
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Old 08-29-2012, 09:39 PM   #132 (permalink)
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Becca yesterday

becca
Definitely improvement!! I might try doing some work close to a wall or other things in order to get her a bit closer to your leg. You don't want her on top of your leg, but I personally prefer a bit closer than that. She seems to be enjoying much more though than she did in the last video. Not sure if she was watching you or your hand, but be sure to remember that if you do compete you will need your arms down by your side in a natural motion, and she will still need to be looking at you. There are many things you can do at this point to build drive and action in the heel, but I would work in very small few step intervals with big releases at the end. Make heeling the best thing ever!

Keep everyone updated!
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Old 08-30-2012, 03:22 AM   #133 (permalink)
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cool, I'll give it a try!
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:27 AM   #134 (permalink)
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Tried, worked.....Thanks

becca clean


There is a vid with sound on my youtube vid if your interested.

Any tips on getting the turning closer to heel, other than shaping it slowly.
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:16 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Tried, worked.....Thanks

becca clean


There is a vid with sound on my youtube vid if your interested.

Any tips on getting the turning closer to heel, other than shaping it slowly.
Much better than before, BUT the dog is 100% focused on your hand with the ball. You need to work on this before building more on that foundation. The dog needs to understand that she looks AT YOU in order to get what she wants, she can not stare at a ball, treat, etc in competition. Try keeping the ball under your arm, arms down by your side and only give her the ball after she has focused on your face. Holding a bribe in front of the dogs face is basically "cheating" and avoiding the whole concept of focus

To the bolded part, it sounds like you are looking for a "press b" type tip....This is simply not the case. You must shape it slowly in order to get accurate and precise left and right turns. There are many shaping activities you can do to teach the dog to remain parallel to you at all times regardless of how you turn.
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:40 PM   #136 (permalink)
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as far as turns go, does footwork make a difference with this kind of heeling? I know it makes a HUGE difference in AKC obedience heeling. It's been years since I've been in a class but we spent 1/3 of the class heeling without our dog working only on footwork.

I use a ball as a reward in agility. And I agree that it needs to slowly get hidden and become a reward vs a lure. I put it in my pocket or tuck it into the back of my shorts.

Nice job on the heeling!!!
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Old 09-12-2012, 12:58 PM   #137 (permalink)
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as far as turns go, does footwork make a difference with this kind of heeling? I know it makes a HUGE difference in AKC obedience heeling. It's been years since I've been in a class but we spent 1/3 of the class heeling without our dog working only on footwork.

I use a ball as a reward in agility. And I agree that it needs to slowly get hidden and become a reward vs a lure. I put it in my pocket or tuck it into the back of my shorts.

Nice job on the heeling!!!
Lots of pivoting I would assume classified as footwork. The overall goal is to not show even the slightest cue for the dog to turn. Of course many people have subtle 'cues' that they use at first to show the dog "we're about to turn", but in the ideal competition setting, you remain with the exact same pace and make a direct turn left or right depending upon the turn of course. It is even looked down upon to lean your shoulders into the turn as the dogs pick up on this very easily. I don't know much about scoring in AKC ob so I do not know how the two compare. Obviously you do not need perfect turns to pass a level of schutzhund, but you do if you want to actually be competitive.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:02 PM   #138 (permalink)
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sorry, yes teaching the correct footwork, not shoulder cues (altho they might help). We were taught to make a T with our feet when we U-Turn, etc. That's about all I remember though
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:07 PM   #139 (permalink)
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sorry, yes teaching the correct footwork, not shoulder cues (altho they might help). We were taught to make a T with our feet when we U-Turn, etc. That's about all I remember though
I guess I've just never thought about needing to work on this without the dogs There may be more turns in akc than schutzhund too, and you have an enclosed area where as schutzhund is obviously just a field and you count your own paces etc. Haha I would hope people would be able to figure out the footwork to walking a T shape without the dogs with little to no practice, but I sometimes I overestimate abilities I reckon! Obviously, Matt, you will need to be able to walk a perfect turn with the dog.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:21 PM   #140 (permalink)
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Ah well shaping it is, the wall trick worked so well for getting her closer I hoped someone had another 'press b' type idea

My intention is to move the ball up and up to my armpit and then in my armpit I rekon but I am pretty sure its too early for that yet.
She is sorta darting her eyes between my face and the ball atm, unless I say look at me then her eyes are on me, till the ball looks like more fun than my ugly mug
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:39 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Ah well shaping it is, the wall trick worked so well for getting her closer I hoped someone had another 'press b' type idea

My intention is to move the ball up and up to my armpit and then in my armpit I rekon but I am pretty sure its too early for that yet.
She is sorta darting her eyes between my face and the ball atm, unless I say look at me then her eyes are on me, till the ball looks like more fun than my ugly mug
It's never to early to work on focus. You just will not be able to immediately heel as long as you are now. You can start NOT heeling but meerly in heel position. Ball under your left armpit (right armpit will cause her to most likely wrap inwards) her in a sit/basic position. You ask for attention by using 'watch' or whatever the word is, reward for watching by throwing the ball. Then build the watch to expect more time before throwing the ball. Once you can get a reliable watch for an extended amount of time (watching your face not ball), you can try it in different positions, then the heel. I started out only asking for 1-2 steps at the heel while watching my face until releasing/rewarding.

If you just continue to let her shift her focus from face to ball, ball to face to hand whatever, this will build a bad foundation and habit. When working with a dog like that, when you start to heel with your arms swinging naturally, you'll find the dogs get fussy over what your hands are doing and their heads tend to have this 'jarring' motion. Slowly moving the ball up to your armpit isn't teaching true attention. And this true attention will also bleed over to protection aspects such as the bark and hold.
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Old 09-12-2012, 05:13 PM   #142 (permalink)
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It's never to early to work on focus. You just will not be able to immediately heel as long as you are now. You can start NOT heeling but meerly in heel position. Ball under your left armpit (right armpit will cause her to most likely wrap inwards) her in a sit/basic position. You ask for attention by using 'watch' or whatever the word is, reward for watching by throwing the ball. Then build the watch to expect more time before throwing the ball. Once you can get a reliable watch for an extended amount of time (watching your face not ball), you can try it in different positions, then the heel. I started out only asking for 1-2 steps at the heel while watching my face until releasing/rewarding.

........................
This is pretty much the same thing I would do. As soon as possible I'd put the ball in a pocket or at least hold it behind my back (with the left hand). Since you've already got a decent foundation to work from, you can probably progress quickly from a few seconds of focus on your face and a reward to one step with face focus then reward, two steps with face focus then reward, etc.

You don't appear to have much problem with the dog forging. I learned to hard way to stop rewarding by throwing the ball forward while still heeling. Now I try to come to a complete stop first if I'll be throwing a ball forward, or if I want to mark while we are still walking I'll throw the ball backwards.
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:02 PM   #143 (permalink)
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hi can anyone tell me who is the breeder of this dog.nassor's the saints silence,thank you in advance
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:04 PM   #144 (permalink)
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would like to get in touch with them
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Old 11-12-2012, 07:15 PM   #145 (permalink)
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I know I am coming into this conversation late but Dobermans can do the sport and excel in it. You will get the same attitude in any sport you go into. In obedience, you "need" a Golden, I come from an agility backgroujd where people think if you want to be competitive you "need" a border collie. Just like if you are doing schutzhund you "need" a German Shepherd or a Malinois.

My boy is a breed CH that also has his SchH1, his sister is the only TT ranked,BIS winning SchH1 Doberman. My boy was trained by his breeder, Susan Miller, and Phil Hoelcher. Phil has been in the sport for years and won multiple national championships, most recently the 2012 DVG Nationals with his German Shepherd. He owned dobes years ago. He says if you watch them work Dobermans are smarter, they will do it the way you ask but will also try something new if they think they have figured out a better way to do things. Also if they get hurt doing something they aren't stupid, they don't want to keep doing it over and over. Shepherds and Malinois in Schutzhund (and border collies in agility) have no self preservation, watch them, they will do it the way you tell them every time, even if they are hurting themselves doing it.

Here is my thing, if you want to be really truly competitive in Schutzhund then get a shepherd, if you want guaranteed competetive status in agility get a border collie, in obedience a golden. Personally I like my dobermans, their personality fits me, they are beautiful dogs, and will put 110% in every time. Plus when you win in you're sport where you have the "wrong" dog it makes it that much sweeter.

Just sit down and ask yourself if you want to be competitive in a sport with a dog breed you like or if you want to compete in a sport with the breed you love.
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Old 11-17-2012, 07:21 AM   #146 (permalink)
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Doberman can be good for SCH if they are bred for it-from it. if you get a dog the that in his pedigree had built in some serious sport dogs (see EU working lines) you have the same chances as in mals or GSDs.

with euro show lines it may work but will take you match longer and you will need a very knowledgeable trainer. probably it will be the better biting dog in the club, you will have major issues in obedience (due to the lack of focus and interference with dominance) and tracking will be.....fun.

i dnt have a clue how the american lines will do.
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:36 PM   #147 (permalink)
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Some pretty broad generalizations in the last 2 posts. For agility, there are super talented dogs of many breeds. Dogs that one can take to the Invitationals if all the stars line up correctly. Takes a super dog, a super handler, and a lot of travel to shows to rack up those points.

For IPO, I have seen all combinations of Euro work/Euro show/American show. They can all be high scoring given the right combo of "talent."
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:41 PM   #148 (permalink)
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Here is my thing, if you want to be really truly competitive in Schutzhund then get a shepherd, if you want guaranteed competetive status in agility get a border collie, in obedience a golden. Personally I like my dobermans, their personality fits me, they are beautiful dogs, and will put 110% in every time. Plus when you win in you're sport where you have the "wrong" dog it makes it that much sweeter.

Just sit down and ask yourself if you want to be competitive in a sport with a dog breed you like or if you want to compete in a sport with the breed you love.
Very well said.

It also reminds me of that joke, "What do you call a medical student who finished last in class?" ("Doctor")

A Dobe that completes the working title still has all the working cred the title confers, even if it was more work or took longer, or whatever. The title qualifies them as being capable of performing the work, and that's what matters.
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