What's the difference in Schutzhund - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums

DobermanTalk.com is the premier Doberman Dog Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-04-2009, 11:39 AM   #1 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Posts: 355
Location: New Jersey
Dogs Name: Sammy
Titles: BH
Dogs Age: 2
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit jimtc's Gallery
Thanks: 283
Thanked 204 Times in 124 Posts
jimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud of
What's the difference in Schutzhund

What is the difference between a "good" Sch III dog and a "great" Sch III dog?

What do GSD's and Mali's have that Dobes don't "typically" have.
jimtc is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Dec 2008
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 07-04-2009, 07:44 PM   #2 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Posts: 990
Location: Gone to the Dobermann kingdom!

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Dobermasha's Gallery
Thanks: 836
Thanked 1,141 Times in 500 Posts
Dobermasha has a reputation beyond reputeDobermasha has a reputation beyond reputeDobermasha has a reputation beyond reputeDobermasha has a reputation beyond reputeDobermasha has a reputation beyond reputeDobermasha has a reputation beyond reputeDobermasha has a reputation beyond reputeDobermasha has a reputation beyond reputeDobermasha has a reputation beyond reputeDobermasha has a reputation beyond reputeDobermasha has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimtc View Post
What do GSD's and Mali's have that Dobes don't "typically" have.

About Mali's:
Dobes have an "off" switch and most of Mali's bred for sport/police - do not. I know a couple of Mali's owners that train heavy in to SchH. Their dogs crated 20/7. The other 4 hours that they are not crated - they either work or poop. People, who choose Dobes for sport usually pick up this breed to be a house dog (a companion) as well and not only for sport. With dobe you can share the roof, with Mali (in general) - you cannot. (just IMO from what I know and was exposed to)

About GSDs:

I found the following discussion very interesting. The thread is dated 2005 and I hope that things changed since then. At least, I want to believe they did.


full discussion here: https://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthrea...page/6/fpart/5


Quote:
"The Dobermann as a working breed is almost extinct. There are a few working Dobermanns left, all of them in the hands of the very few dog sport fans who love the breed. There are a handfull of breeders who still breed with those dogs, against the dictations of the Dobermann clubs, who only promote conformation. Among those breeders you have Ascomannis, Burgstaette, Burghoff, Warringhof... there are some more, but the list is very short. In the US there is Thomas Barriano, who breeds with Ascomannis, Britt Reed (before Britt Nickelsen)= Danika, and a few others.
For 25 years (I'm 38 now) the Dobermann was my only breed. Now I work with working line German Shepperds. This is a whole different world. I have seen excelent Dobermanns, like Jano v. Bayern (I don't know if Mr. Lerner still breeds) and a friend of mine has Arno v. d. Burgstaette, another excellent working dog that can beat most German Shepperds in Protection. Unfortunately NOBODY has used him for breeding in our country (Spain) and he's already 6 or 7 years old.
On the other side you have the German Shepperd, with hundreds of working breeders in Germany and around the world with a common goal, hundreds of good trainers and handlers to workd and trial the dogs, the strongest breed Club, the best Schutzhund judges, the best helpers, etc, etc, etc.
What else can I say?
Regards,
Pedro. "


Dobermasha is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Dec 2008
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Dobermasha For This Useful Post:
budderz (07-07-2009), jimtc (07-05-2009), Khiera (07-06-2009), Makaveli (07-04-2009)
Old 07-04-2009, 07:50 PM   #3 (permalink)
Extraordimary
 
MaryAndDobes's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,333
Location: Ontario, Canada
Dogs Name: Shelby, Kismet, Royal, Moxie, Copper & Wicca
Titles: Yes
Dogs Age: 10, 9, 7, 7, 6 & 2
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit MaryAndDobes's Gallery
Thanks: 3
Thanked 13,986 Times in 2,772 Posts
MaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimtc View Post

What do GSD's and Mali's have that Dobes don't "typically" have.
A sport that was created for them.
__________________
MaryAndDobes is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2005
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to MaryAndDobes For This Useful Post:
budderz (07-07-2009), dobebug (07-07-2009), greenkouki (07-06-2009), Incredibledobe (07-05-2009), Khiera (07-06-2009), Makaveli (07-04-2009)
Old 07-04-2009, 08:45 PM   #4 (permalink)
Lil Dog
 
Posts: 64
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, FL
Dogs Name: Apasch vom Haus King of Queens
Dogs Age: 4
Gallery Pics: 12
Visit wrussell's Gallery
Thanks: 0
Thanked 65 Times in 31 Posts
Images: 12
wrussell is a jewel in the roughwrussell is a jewel in the roughwrussell is a jewel in the roughwrussell is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryAndDobes View Post
A sport that was created for them.
Are you saying dobes can't compete in schutzhund?
wrussell is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Aug 2007
Old 07-04-2009, 09:24 PM   #5 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Makaveli's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,405
Location: Surrey, BC
Dogs Name: Kleo(R.I.P.)
Titles: Cuddle master, world champion of wrestling
Dogs Age: Feb 24/08 - May 14/09
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Makaveli's Gallery
Thanks: 5,725
Thanked 2,466 Times in 1,389 Posts
Makaveli has a reputation beyond reputeMakaveli has a reputation beyond reputeMakaveli has a reputation beyond reputeMakaveli has a reputation beyond reputeMakaveli has a reputation beyond reputeMakaveli has a reputation beyond reputeMakaveli has a reputation beyond reputeMakaveli has a reputation beyond reputeMakaveli has a reputation beyond reputeMakaveli has a reputation beyond reputeMakaveli has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrussell View Post
Are you saying dobes can't compete in schutzhund?
I'm not M&D but I'll give it my shot.

I have seen a Dobie compete in Sch at our local club and in my opinion she did better than all the GSD. And what that statement also could mean was that the Dobie bred more to guard Louis Dobermann rather than go compete in some sort of sports. I believe its because of all the different sporting/working dogs used to breed the Doberman breed is the reason why a Dobie can compete in Sch.

That's all for me...I probably am way off on everything, lol...but I'll let other successful people in the sport answer.
__________________
Harp Chahal
Dragon Slaying Dobermans Incorporated Member #007 (Currently out of business)
Real Eyes...Real Lies...Realize
"I don't need to sit for the cookie, I hunt dragons all day dammit!! (Also out of cookies and dragon hunter)
Makaveli is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: May 2008
Old 07-04-2009, 11:06 PM   #6 (permalink)
Extraordimary
 
MaryAndDobes's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,333
Location: Ontario, Canada
Dogs Name: Shelby, Kismet, Royal, Moxie, Copper & Wicca
Titles: Yes
Dogs Age: 10, 9, 7, 7, 6 & 2
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit MaryAndDobes's Gallery
Thanks: 3
Thanked 13,986 Times in 2,772 Posts
MaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrussell View Post
Are you saying dobes can't compete in schutzhund?
Not at all. I'm just saying that I believe the sport was created for GSDs and it maybe suits them better than it suits a Doberman for various reasons.
__________________
MaryAndDobes is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2005
The Following User Says Thank You to MaryAndDobes For This Useful Post:
Lori Z (07-05-2009)
Old 07-05-2009, 03:49 AM   #7 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Rosamburg's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,905
Location: WA State
Dogs Name: Cairo vom Shattenfell IPO3 (X4), S'lichobor Gvadalahara Sch3 X6 (RIP Hara),
Dogs Age: 5
Gallery Pics: 3
Visit Rosamburg's Gallery
Thanks: 764
Thanked 5,314 Times in 1,526 Posts
Images: 3
Rosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond repute
What a can of worms........

The Malinois and working line GSD (as opposed to show GSD's) have been bred with the primary purpose of breeding the best working dogs. I cannot speak to the Malinois as I don't have the opportunity to see a ton of them work. I was able to attend only one day of the Mali nationals last year. In terms of the working GSD the gene pool to draw from is huge in terms of good dogs with stable temperament and strong drive. At my small club alone (15 to 20 GSD's) there are probably 10 Stud dogs that are stronger than all but 2 or 3 male working Dobermanns in all of North America. At my club there are probably 4 or 5 male GSD stud dogs that are stronger than ANY male Dobermann in N.A.

Worldwide there are very few working line Dobermann breeders. The article posted above mentioned a few of them. There are not many more than what were listed. IMO, a working line breeder is one who places improving the working ability at the very top of the priority list in breeding. Even to the point of sacrificing conformation traits to achieve their goal. IMO, it is almost impossible to improve the working ability of the Dobermann if conformation is a higher or even equal priority to working ability. This is especially true if you have to factor in health considerations in the breeding equation.

The Doberman breed is plagued with health problems that limit breeding choices.

I had a long conversation the other evening with one of the very few working breeders in North America. She and I both came to the consensus that the Doberman community, at least in North America is made up of too few people who seriously COMPETE with their dogs. It is very easy to be involved in endless discussion on how great certain trainers, dogs, etc are. If this is the case how come so few actually compete. The only way to tell how good a dog really is is to put them in competition with other dogs beyond the club level. If you go to strange fields, strange conditions, strange helpers, here is where you get a true picture of what a working dog is made of. This is even more true at higher level of competition where there are more distractions, more stress, more pressure (on both the handler and the dog).There are almost NO dobermann handlers in North America who even attempt this.

To determine how great a trainer director is, one should look at how many people under their guidance have achieved high levels of success. How many have placed well in Regional and National competitions? How many have had success at a world championship level? It may be just me, but it seems a fairly high percentage of Doberman handlers rave about this professional seminar guy or that one, but never seem to have any success with their dogs. Perhaps they have not bought into a system where they can build a foundation for their dog. They seem to be like a lot of golfers I know who are always looking for a quick fix, the right tip that will solve their problems. Rather than try to find ways to improve, they accept mediocrity in both the training and in the quality of the dog.

How many people are willing to put their dogs in situations where they may look bad? I read an interesting interview this morning by a top Sch judge. In the interview he mentioned that if you judge to a high standard you don't get asked back to judge in many circles. Rather than look to improve the situation, too many look for the easy way out. Rather than raise their own standards, take an honest look at training methods or quality of the dogs, too many make excuses for their dogs, blame judges, helpers, etc. In my opinion, in the Dobermann breed we have a much higher percentage of people who take this approach. I do not know why this is. I just rarely hear this same thing from working GSD people I encounter.

Last edited by Rosamburg; 07-05-2009 at 03:56 AM..
Rosamburg is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Aug 2007
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Rosamburg For This Useful Post:
bonzo (07-05-2009), budderz (07-07-2009), elly (07-05-2009), firespydar (07-10-2009), jimtc (07-05-2009), Khiera (07-06-2009), lemon (03-12-2010)
Old 07-05-2009, 05:29 AM   #8 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Posts: 355
Location: New Jersey
Dogs Name: Sammy
Titles: BH
Dogs Age: 2
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit jimtc's Gallery
Thanks: 283
Thanked 204 Times in 124 Posts
jimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud of
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimtc View Post
What is the difference between a "good" Sch III dog and a "great" Sch III dog?

What do GSD's and Mali's have that Dobes don't "typically" have.

No gravy on this tug. I am hoping we have the exception and not the rule. I know, a lot different than a stranger in a suit!!

Last edited by jimtc; 07-07-2009 at 04:00 PM..
jimtc is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Dec 2008
Old 07-05-2009, 06:13 AM   #9 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Posts: 355
Location: New Jersey
Dogs Name: Sammy
Titles: BH
Dogs Age: 2
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit jimtc's Gallery
Thanks: 283
Thanked 204 Times in 124 Posts
jimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud of
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimtc View Post
What is the difference between a "good" Sch III dog and a "great" Sch III dog?

What do GSD's and Mali's have that Dobes don't "typically" have.
Would it be correct to assume that a "great" dog is more focused, more driven, harder and sharper than the "typical" circus dog who would just as soon run through a tunnel as bite a sleeve? And to all of this you add nerve and courage.

I have read that more schutzhund dogs fail in tracking than protection or obedience. any comments?
jimtc is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Dec 2008
Old 07-05-2009, 10:41 AM   #10 (permalink)
Big Dog
 
Posts: 92
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Rigel's Paw's Gallery
Thanks: 127
Thanked 108 Times in 49 Posts
Rigel's Paw is a name known to allRigel's Paw is a name known to allRigel's Paw is a name known to allRigel's Paw is a name known to allRigel's Paw is a name known to allRigel's Paw is a name known to all
I think a lot of it has to do with the training approaches taken with the dogs. Are trainers training dobermans the same way they train GSD and Malis which are in the herding group. It seems like you couldn't train them the same way because they have different backgrounds and genetics.
Although I do think the dobes of today are a bit watered down, I am also aware that if the temperament had not been modified that this dog would probably not exist either. I applaud all working breeders who are trying to find a balance between the two.
I think if all dog organizations simply took steps to ensure that the total dog was being presented I think our breed wouldn't be in the state it is in now, and bulldogs wouldn't have asthma.
Rigel's Paw is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: May 2009
Old 07-05-2009, 02:39 PM   #11 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Posts: 604

Gallery Pics: 1
Visit bonzo's Gallery
Thanks: 921
Thanked 1,010 Times in 345 Posts
Images: 1
bonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond repute
Problem is IMO that (i'm speaking of europe) for 1 doberlitter maybe 100 malinois or gsd litters are born and probably that 1 litter will be full of crap....but don't forget that in the mali and gsd world there is also a lot of crap. It is also a fact that it is easier to train a mali or a gsd than a dober imo...i've competed in all breed competitions were i beated mali's and gsd but i also had competitions were it didn't went so well...As rosamburg stated a lot of "workingdoberpeople" never go further than the local club and start to blaim everybody but themselves when something goes wrong..but on the other hand will tell everybody how great their dog is...yesterday i went with Elly and her husband Rob to a ztp and with maybe the exception of 2 dogs all the rest was a lot of **** in a big body:biggrin55:although most of them got their ztp and some even with 1AU possibly by training a half year for a stupid test like a ztp. Another thing....today i competed at the Conan van Manesheide pokal in Germany....my dog did 90 obedience which wasn't that great imo, during manwork he missed 2 blinds an had to give 2 commands to get him out of the blind with 93 as a result and we still won....actually this is a sad thing because if this would happen at an allbreed i would probably be ranked somewhere in the middle...btw all the other competitors were also workinglinedobes from europe.....now i don't think that all is lost for the dobermann but i think that to get a good workingstock again show and work should be completely seperated as the gsd and the malinois people do.... i sometimes get sick when i hear people talk about temperament and drive of their dogs when they actually don't have a clue of the meaning of the word.
bonzo is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2008
The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to bonzo For This Useful Post:
budderz (07-07-2009), elly (07-05-2009), firespydar (07-10-2009), Kansadobe (07-06-2009), lemon (03-12-2010), Navistardobe (07-05-2009), Rigel's Paw (07-07-2009), Rosamburg (07-05-2009), talentdobe (07-05-2009), von Cosack Dobermann (07-05-2009)
Old 07-05-2009, 09:18 PM   #12 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Rosamburg's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,905
Location: WA State
Dogs Name: Cairo vom Shattenfell IPO3 (X4), S'lichobor Gvadalahara Sch3 X6 (RIP Hara),
Dogs Age: 5
Gallery Pics: 3
Visit Rosamburg's Gallery
Thanks: 764
Thanked 5,314 Times in 1,526 Posts
Images: 3
Rosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimtc View Post

What do GSD's and Mali's have that Dobes don't "typically" have.
You have to remember that we are speaking in generality. I can only speak to GSD's. Though I have not seen a million of them work, so I can only speak of the ones I have seen, but I am not a big fan of the Malinois. The good working line GSD's tend to have a balance of drive that is more difficult to find in a Dobermann. They tend to have more power (though there are some powerful dobies out there. . They seem more able to work independent of their owner at a distance. They tend to be less flighty. They tend to do less flyby's. They tend to be trained better. They are easier to train. They tend to be owned by people who do not have as much of a tendency as Dobie people to wear rose-colored glasses. They tend to be owned and handled by people who will find a good pet home for the dog if it does not perform well.
Rosamburg is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Aug 2007
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rosamburg For This Useful Post:
budderz (07-07-2009), jimtc (07-06-2009)
Old 07-05-2009, 09:45 PM   #13 (permalink)
Extraordimary
 
MaryAndDobes's Avatar
 
Posts: 4,333
Location: Ontario, Canada
Dogs Name: Shelby, Kismet, Royal, Moxie, Copper & Wicca
Titles: Yes
Dogs Age: 10, 9, 7, 7, 6 & 2
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit MaryAndDobes's Gallery
Thanks: 3
Thanked 13,986 Times in 2,772 Posts
MaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond reputeMaryAndDobes has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosamburg View Post
They seem more able to work independent of their owner at a distance. They tend to be less flighty. They tend to do less flyby's. They tend to be trained better. They are easier to train. They tend to be owned by people who do not have as much of a tendency as Dobie people to wear rose-colored glasses. They tend to be owned and handled by people who will find a good pet home for the dog if it does not perform well.
My experience is with obedience, not with Schutzhund. However, I used to train with a GSD breeder who has put Sch titles on some of her dogs, and who is a CKC obedience judge. Many of her puppy owners attended the classes that I attended over the years so we trained beside a number of GSDs.

I don't know if I'd say they are easier to train. They're just different. They didn't seem to mind drilling, and what I mean by that is doing the same thing over and over and over. My Dobermans didn't want to do that, and didn't need to do that. I learned to be very mindful of not drilling for as long as they were drilling and I'd just do something else until it was time for the next exercise. They thought if the dog would recall correctly 3 times, they should do it 20 more times. Not for us! If my dog did something correctly the first or second time or third time, I was done and moving on. Dobermans get bored with routine.

Pet homes are maybe just generally more available for GSDs who don't have quite the reputation that Dobermans have. Everyone thinks of GSDs as the heroes and Dobermans as the villains.
__________________
MaryAndDobes is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2005
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to MaryAndDobes For This Useful Post:
budderz (07-07-2009), doberkris (07-14-2009), Kansadobe (07-06-2009), Khiera (07-06-2009), Lexus (07-05-2009), robinb (07-06-2009)
Old 07-06-2009, 12:35 AM   #14 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Pitts's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,214
Location: Oklahoma
Titles: BH, SchH1,SchH2

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit Pitts's Gallery
Thanks: 1,030
Thanked 2,589 Times in 812 Posts
Pitts has a reputation beyond reputePitts has a reputation beyond reputePitts has a reputation beyond reputePitts has a reputation beyond reputePitts has a reputation beyond reputePitts has a reputation beyond reputePitts has a reputation beyond reputePitts has a reputation beyond reputePitts has a reputation beyond reputePitts has a reputation beyond reputePitts has a reputation beyond repute
The real difference in a good SCH III dog and a great SCH III dog is as a friend of mine says is......
"The Proof is in the Points"
__________________
Dale
"Show me your dog and I will tell you what manner of man you are."
Max Von Stephanitz
Pitts is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jan 2009
The Following User Says Thank You to Pitts For This Useful Post:
budderz (07-07-2009)
Old 07-06-2009, 02:57 AM   #15 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Rosamburg's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,905
Location: WA State
Dogs Name: Cairo vom Shattenfell IPO3 (X4), S'lichobor Gvadalahara Sch3 X6 (RIP Hara),
Dogs Age: 5
Gallery Pics: 3
Visit Rosamburg's Gallery
Thanks: 764
Thanked 5,314 Times in 1,526 Posts
Images: 3
Rosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitts View Post
The real difference in a good SCH III dog and a great SCH III dog is as a friend of mine says is......
"The Proof is in the Points"
Yes but.... there are other factors, mainly quality of the handler (my dog's biggest downfall).
Rosamburg is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Aug 2007
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rosamburg For This Useful Post:
budderz (07-07-2009), jimtc (07-06-2009)
Old 07-06-2009, 03:38 AM   #16 (permalink)
Banned
 
BackInBlack's Avatar
 
Posts: 6,740
Location: Coastal, NC
Dogs Name: Piper, Rommel, Ziris, Brownie, Friday, Ingo (R.I.P. Bronco)

Gallery Pics: 92
Visit BackInBlack's Gallery
Thanks: 4,490
Thanked 6,374 Times in 1,472 Posts
Images: 92
BackInBlack has a reputation beyond reputeBackInBlack has a reputation beyond reputeBackInBlack has a reputation beyond reputeBackInBlack has a reputation beyond reputeBackInBlack has a reputation beyond reputeBackInBlack has a reputation beyond reputeBackInBlack has a reputation beyond reputeBackInBlack has a reputation beyond reputeBackInBlack has a reputation beyond reputeBackInBlack has a reputation beyond reputeBackInBlack has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitts View Post
The real difference in a good SCH III dog and a great SCH III dog is as a friend of mine says is......
"The Proof is in the Points"
To me personally...the "points" are more about the handler and trainers. You can put a crap dog with a really good handler/trainer and get the points... It goes the other way too. I personally would take a dog who could use a little more control, but is full of power over a robot anyday. Correct is nice, correct with power is VERY nice...but the power, drive, mental soundness is more important to me than correct. Especially for breeding purposes.

In my opinion people put way to much value into titles and points...what a particular dog or bitch needs in way of temperament and working ability (IMO of course) cannot be judged by looking at scores alone. There are several dogs who do very well in big competition that I would never ever be interested in. Again...just my opinion.

Also...I agree with Mary about the GSDs and "drilling". They seem to be willing to do it all day. My dobermans are not like that... it gives them the chance to think about it to much
BackInBlack is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Dec 2005
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to BackInBlack For This Useful Post:
blackdoberboy (07-06-2009), bleh60 (07-06-2009), bonzo (07-06-2009), budderz (07-07-2009), elly (07-06-2009), Incredibledobe (07-07-2009), jimtc (07-06-2009), Khiera (07-06-2009), Okie-dobie (07-06-2009)
Old 07-06-2009, 04:55 AM   #17 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Posts: 355
Location: New Jersey
Dogs Name: Sammy
Titles: BH
Dogs Age: 2
Gallery Pics: 0
Visit jimtc's Gallery
Thanks: 283
Thanked 204 Times in 124 Posts
jimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud ofjimtc has much to be proud of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosamburg View Post
You have to remember that we are speaking in generality. I can only speak to GSD's. Though I have not seen a million of them work, so I can only speak of the ones I have seen, but I am not a big fan of the Malinois. The good working line GSD's tend to have a balance of drive that is more difficult to find in a Dobermann. They tend to have more power (though there are some powerful dobies out there. . They seem more able to work independent of their owner at a distance. They tend to be less flighty. They tend to do less flyby's. They tend to be trained better. They are easier to train. They tend to be owned by people who do not have as much of a tendency as Dobie people to wear rose-colored glasses. They tend to be owned and handled by people who will find a good pet home for the dog if it does not perform well.
I considered joining a small schutzhund club that was all GSD's and almost every dog was kept in an outside run rather than in a household. It seems more common place than I would have expected. One owner expressed very matter of factly that if a dog didn't work out, he would get rid of him and get another. My dogs are companion first and performance 2nd.

My 8 month old is so over the top that if she had any more dominance she would have to be an only dog. Luckily Sammy is a wuss. But, as a wuss, he will never be a schutzhund dog.
jimtc is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Dec 2008
Old 07-06-2009, 08:54 AM   #18 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Posts: 1,023
Location: Crystal Coast of North Carolina

Gallery Pics: 1
Visit K9Jarko's Gallery
Thanks: 391
Thanked 1,119 Times in 326 Posts
Images: 1
K9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond repute
What's the difference between a good SchH III dog and a great SchH III dog?

You've gotten various opinions to this question - so it obvious that different people have different opinions as to what is good versus great. Does points alone = greatness? I personally would say no - there are several point/podium dogs that have NOT successfully or consistently reproduced themselves or better. I would say that it depends on what your looking for, just as much as it depends who the handler/trainer is. I personally am more impressed (with a dog of any breed) that is handled by a first time or "unknown" handler, who might not have THE best well-known trainer, yet attains respectable scores despite all this. Even better when you have a couple of pups from the same litter that are able to do this as well. As most of us know....good training and handling skills can mask alot.

Another personal opinion - I am of the opinion that we in the U.S. place to much value on titling our working females (of any breed) and males as well BEFORE a breeding takes place. I think that most of the European countries (breeders) have the right idea -test the female...work her to see if she has the drives/traits/qualities to be bred (without rose colored glasses on)...breed her to see what if anything she may produce....then continue with obtaining her titles.

As most know it costs money to be able to "campaign" a dog and go to some of these higher level competitions. I can't help but wonder how many dogs (of various breeds) would be on podiums if their handlers had the financial resources to compete at the higher levels.



What do GSD's and Mali's have that Dobe's don't typically have?

The numbers......as already mentioned - there are not many breeders who breed specifically for working Dobe's ....even fewer who are willing to tightly line breed - as seen in many of the GSD and Mal's. Not many top handlers/trainers working Dobe's themselves (at least in the U.S.). Not many experienced or inexperienced helpers/trainers/handlers that are willing/able to work Dobe's without the preconceived opinions (=oh no....a Doberman). Because the numbers of working sport handlers in the Doberman breed is low (as compared to others).....word travels quick amongst the group....and from what I have witnessed it is more often then not...not very nice. One would think that those who obviously love the breed and have been working them for countless years would strive to share their experience with others who show interest in the breed....this is something that I have not personally seen.

As for the kenneling of GSD's and Mal's - that is a personal choice. I have 3 Mal's and soon-to-be one GSD....only one is crated (nap time - for her safety as she'll swallow/eat anything not tied down)...the others have free reign of the house and are my shadows. Don't think I would allow any of them up on the roof though

Last edited by K9Jarko; 07-06-2009 at 09:12 AM..
K9Jarko is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Dec 2006
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to K9Jarko For This Useful Post:
Incredibledobe (07-07-2009), jimtc (07-06-2009)
Old 07-06-2009, 10:23 AM   #19 (permalink)
Big Dog
 
dobe11's Avatar
 
Posts: 138
Location: Minnesota
Titles: Mondioring 1, BH, WAC

Gallery Pics: 13
Visit dobe11's Gallery
Thanks: 118
Thanked 73 Times in 46 Posts
Images: 13
dobe11 is just really nicedobe11 is just really nicedobe11 is just really nicedobe11 is just really nicedobe11 is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by K9Jarko View Post
What's the difference between a good SchH III dog and a great SchH III dog?

You've gotten various opinions to this question - so it obvious that different people have different opinions as to what is good versus great. Does points alone = greatness? I personally would say no - there are several point/podium dogs that have NOT successfully or consistently reproduced themselves or better. I would say that it depends on what your looking for, just as much as it depends who the handler/trainer is. I personally am more impressed (with a dog of any breed) that is handled by a first time or "unknown" handler, who might not have THE best well-known trainer, yet attains respectable scores despite all this. Even better when you have a couple of pups from the same litter that are able to do this as well. As most of us know....good training and handling skills can mask alot.

Another personal opinion - I am of the opinion that we in the U.S. place to much value on titling our working females (of any breed) and males as well BEFORE a breeding takes place. I think that most of the European countries (breeders) have the right idea -test the female...work her to see if she has the drives/traits/qualities to be bred (without rose colored glasses on)...breed her to see what if anything she may produce....then continue with obtaining her titles.

As most know it costs money to be able to "campaign" a dog and go to some of these higher level competitions. I can't help but wonder how many dogs (of various breeds) would be on podiums if their handlers had the financial resources to compete at the higher levels.



What do GSD's and Mali's have that Dobe's don't typically have?

The numbers......as already mentioned - there are not many breeders who breed specifically for working Dobe's ....even fewer who are willing to tightly line breed - as seen in many of the GSD and Mal's. Not many top handlers/trainers working Dobe's themselves (at least in the U.S.). Not many experienced or inexperienced helpers/trainers/handlers that are willing/able to work Dobe's without the preconceived opinions (=oh no....a Doberman). Because the numbers of working sport handlers in the Doberman breed is low (as compared to others).....word travels quick amongst the group....and from what I have witnessed it is more often then not...not very nice. One would think that those who obviously love the breed and have been working them for countless years would strive to share their experience with others who show interest in the breed....this is something that I have not personally seen.

As for the kenneling of GSD's and Mal's - that is a personal choice. I have 3 Mal's and soon-to-be one GSD....only one is crated (nap time - for her safety as she'll swallow/eat anything not tied down)...the others have free reign of the house and are my shadows. Don't think I would allow any of them up on the roof though
I agree with K9Jarko completely regarding what constitutes a good SchH dog.

When you mentioned the rarity of available mentors that have been working with dobes for many years as a possible setback really hit home for me. Like most, we are the only dobe handler team at the small club I train with. However, a local ringsport club in the area now has a few young up-and-coming dobes so that is exciting (I believe one team is going for a MR1 soon)!

But you know what the flip side to being the only one with a dobe that I kinda like? Notoriety!

Iím not just another chick with a ďsafe choiceĒ GSD on the field, no Iíve got a spunky doberman with all the quirks and nuances that come with the territory, if you will. Yes, Iíve been told a few times that my dog is not the easiest for a first-timer but I feel once I we obtain the SchH III, my skills as a handler will supernova, leaving me able to handle any dog that follows with ease.

I intended this to be read in good humor, as I feel that what you need when dealing with the strong opinions of those involved in dogsports. To each his own, I guess.
dobe11 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Mar 2007
The Following User Says Thank You to dobe11 For This Useful Post:
jimtc (07-06-2009)
Old 07-06-2009, 12:03 PM   #20 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Rosamburg's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,905
Location: WA State
Dogs Name: Cairo vom Shattenfell IPO3 (X4), S'lichobor Gvadalahara Sch3 X6 (RIP Hara),
Dogs Age: 5
Gallery Pics: 3
Visit Rosamburg's Gallery
Thanks: 764
Thanked 5,314 Times in 1,526 Posts
Images: 3
Rosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by K9Jarko View Post
What's the difference between a good SchH III dog and a great SchH III dog?

You've gotten various opinions to this question - so it obvious that different people have different opinions as to what is good versus great. Does points alone = greatness? I personally would say no - there are several point/podium dogs that have NOT successfully or consistently reproduced themselves or better. I would say that it depends on what your looking for, just as much as it depends who the handler/trainer is. I personally am more impressed (with a dog of any breed) that is handled by a first time or "unknown" handler, who might not have THE best well-known trainer, yet attains respectable scores despite all this. Even better when you have a couple of pups from the same litter that are able to do this as well. As most of us know....good training and handling skills can mask alot.
Yes but a good or tough judge can often see through some of these masks. Not all scores are equal because not all judges are equal in how points are allotted. There is also the factor of how consistent a judge may be in the same trial. I have been amazed sometimes when scores for performances are given. Some judges are all over the map.


Quote:
Originally Posted by K9Jarko View Post
Another personal opinion - I am of the opinion that we in the U.S. place to much value on titling our working females (of any breed) and males as well BEFORE a breeding takes place. I think that most of the European countries (breeders) have the right idea -test the female...work her to see if she has the drives/traits/qualities to be bred (without rose colored glasses on)...breed her to see what if anything she may produce....then continue with obtaining her titles.
I think this is true with the Malinois but not the GSD, where at least in Germany they at least have to have a Sch1 to breed. With the Doberman I think one dog has to be sch titled and one at least a ZTP to breed in Germany, though it may just be a ZTP, I don't remember. I see some validity in this because I believe that a Dobermann tends to mature a little later than a GSD (don't have a clue about Mals). I know in our case we had to wait until she was 4 1/2 to breed because of my Sch club policy that we cannot breed until a bitch has a sch1 title.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K9Jarko View Post
As most know it costs money to be able to "campaign" a dog and go to some of these higher level competitions. I can't help but wonder how many dogs (of various breeds) would be on podiums if their handlers had the financial resources to compete at the higher levels.
Can't argue with that statement as it fits me and my dog to a T. We would not make any all breed competition podiums, but feel we would have a shot on good day at an all Dobermann competition.


Quote:
Originally Posted by K9Jarko View Post
What do GSD's and Mali's have that Dobe's don't typically have?

The numbers......as already mentioned - there are not many breeders who breed specifically for working Dobe's ....even fewer who are willing to tightly line breed - as seen in many of the GSD and Mal's. Not many top handlers/trainers working Dobe's themselves (at least in the U.S.). Not many experienced or inexperienced helpers/trainers/handlers that are willing/able to work Dobe's without the preconceived opinions (=oh no....a Doberman). Because the numbers of working sport handlers in the Doberman breed is low (as compared to others).....word travels quick amongst the group....and from what I have witnessed it is more often then not...not very nice. One would think that those who obviously love the breed and have been working them for countless years would strive to share their experience with others who show interest in the breed....this is something that I have not personally seen.
In North America our choices are so limited that you often have to take what you can get in terms of breeding choices. I know personally there were no choices in terms of line breeding that met my criteria, especially when I factored in health issues. In terms of working with GSD people I think this is a good thing as long as they are good trainers who look at individual attributes of the dogs themselves rather than the breed. I think too many Dobermann handlers make too many allowances for their dogs and baby them too much. There are certain characteristics that cannot be ignored. For example there is a tendency for Doberman's to do a fly by in long bites (and sometimes escape bites). A trainer who is sensitive to that will take measures to correct that, or perhaps even do some prevention exercises. I know at our club we have been doing some prevention on this, by intentionally making Hara bites and then providing discomfort via the e-collar until she gets back on the sleeve. They need to get the message that they have to commit. This is one of the very few breed specific issues. In terms of general training I think that a good training system should work regardless of the breed

Quote:
Originally Posted by K9Jarko View Post
As for the kenneling of GSD's and Mal's - that is a personal choice. I have 3 Mal's and soon-to-be one GSD....only one is crated (nap time - for her safety as she'll swallow/eat anything not tied down)...the others have free reign of the house and are my shadows. Don't think I would allow any of them up on the roof though
I agree. It comes down to personal choice. If someone argues the matter and says a house dog would never be successful, you could point to Pierre from Sweden who has been a consistent top 10 finisher at the WUSV and who won the prestigious honor in 2007. His dog is a house dog with him and his family.

Last edited by Rosamburg; 07-06-2009 at 12:06 PM..
Rosamburg is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Aug 2007
Old 07-06-2009, 01:24 PM   #21 (permalink)
Big Dog
 
dobe11's Avatar
 
Posts: 138
Location: Minnesota
Titles: Mondioring 1, BH, WAC

Gallery Pics: 13
Visit dobe11's Gallery
Thanks: 118
Thanked 73 Times in 46 Posts
Images: 13
dobe11 is just really nicedobe11 is just really nicedobe11 is just really nicedobe11 is just really nicedobe11 is just really nice
I do not believe what I am reading here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosamburg View Post
Hara bites and then providing discomfort via the e-collar until she gets back on the sleeve.
Using an e-collar to get your dog to stick the bite!?

Maybe it was the raw honesty that surprised me most.

The few times I notice my dog loosing a full grip is when he dropped out of drive, ie. hard correction or confusion during the teaching phase.
dobe11 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Mar 2007
The Following User Says Thank You to dobe11 For This Useful Post:
robinb (07-06-2009)
Old 07-06-2009, 03:15 PM   #22 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Posts: 604

Gallery Pics: 1
Visit bonzo's Gallery
Thanks: 921
Thanked 1,010 Times in 345 Posts
Images: 1
bonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond reputebonzo has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobe11 View Post
I do not believe what I am reading here...



Using an e-collar to get your dog to stick the bite!?

Maybe it was the raw honesty that surprised me most.

The few times I notice my dog loosing a full grip is when he dropped out of drive, ie. hard correction or confusion during the teaching phase.
Nothing wrong with that...it's like black and white...dog does a good thing he gets comfort and when he or she in Steve's case does something wrong a little disconfort...a thing like that is very clear for a dog actually i think it is a great idea without puttin' too much stress on a dog...of course you shouldn't do that with every dog but when the dog has enough drive it's a good method.
bonzo is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Jun 2008
The Following User Says Thank You to bonzo For This Useful Post:
budderz (07-07-2009)
Old 07-06-2009, 10:09 PM   #23 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Rosamburg's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,905
Location: WA State
Dogs Name: Cairo vom Shattenfell IPO3 (X4), S'lichobor Gvadalahara Sch3 X6 (RIP Hara),
Dogs Age: 5
Gallery Pics: 3
Visit Rosamburg's Gallery
Thanks: 764
Thanked 5,314 Times in 1,526 Posts
Images: 3
Rosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by dobe11 View Post
I do not believe what I am reading here...



Using an e-collar to get your dog to stick the bite!?

Maybe it was the raw honesty that surprised me most.

The few times I notice my dog loosing a full grip is when he dropped out of drive, ie. hard correction or confusion during the teaching phase.
I re-read what I wrote. It is supposed to say she is made to MISS the bite, by having the helper move the sleeve out of the way at the last second.

It is not using the collar to get them to stick the bite, it is using the collar to PREVENT them from not sticking the bite. Drive is not the problem it is a focus issue. It is a form of proofing the exercise. As a 5 time Sch3, she is far beyond the teaching phase. It was real interesting on the next escape bite she slightly circled the helper to insure she had a direct hit on the sleeve, it is amazing the increase in focus and seriousness when a dog learns there are consequences for doing something wrong. I don't know how else you could proof that. The collar is on a very low level, just enough to create a little discomfort. This is not something that you could do with every dog. Like Bonzo said however, not only does she have the drive, but an uncommon level of hardness. My TD says you will never see a harder Doberman bitch than her. And it is not something that everyone would be skilled enough to use. In the hands of an expert the e-collar is used for a large number of purposes. I am not that expert, and I certainly would not be holding the button.

Last edited by Rosamburg; 07-06-2009 at 10:21 PM..
Rosamburg is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Aug 2007
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Rosamburg For This Useful Post:
budderz (07-07-2009), dobe11 (07-06-2009), jimtc (07-07-2009), Khiera (07-07-2009)
Old 07-07-2009, 12:51 AM   #24 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Rosamburg's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,905
Location: WA State
Dogs Name: Cairo vom Shattenfell IPO3 (X4), S'lichobor Gvadalahara Sch3 X6 (RIP Hara),
Dogs Age: 5
Gallery Pics: 3
Visit Rosamburg's Gallery
Thanks: 764
Thanked 5,314 Times in 1,526 Posts
Images: 3
Rosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond reputeRosamburg has a reputation beyond repute
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimtc View Post
What is the difference between a "good" Sch III dog and a "great" Sch III dog?
.
I think there is a lot to this in terms of the difference. Certainly a great deal of drive is necessary. Not only an enormous amount of prey drive but a balance of prey,fight and defense drive. Solid nerve is helpful. In terms of Sch it is a 3 phase sport so it has to show not only the ability to take the fight to the helper during protection, but also to be willing to work for the handler, and to stay focused, to work in drive and under distraction in the OB and tracking phase. In terms of drive to be able to switch between drives and to be in the right drive for the right occasion. The dog needs conviction, and heart for the work. It does not hurt to have a good handler and a training system and training helper that knows how to best work the dog.
Rosamburg is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Aug 2007
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Rosamburg For This Useful Post:
bonzo (07-07-2009), jimtc (07-07-2009), Khiera (07-07-2009)
Old 07-07-2009, 07:34 AM   #25 (permalink)
Alpha
 
Posts: 1,023
Location: Crystal Coast of North Carolina

Gallery Pics: 1
Visit K9Jarko's Gallery
Thanks: 391
Thanked 1,119 Times in 326 Posts
Images: 1
K9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond reputeK9Jarko has a reputation beyond repute
Props to Steve for his honesty.....reference e-collar.

I was never a fan of the e-collar, but over the years I have found that once a dog is taught and has actually learned what is required of them, an e-collar is a very useful tool in the right hands , with the right dog. Admittingly, I just don't have the skills, experience or timing required to utilize the e-collar myself - at least not yet. In protection, using a prong tends to send some dogs that much higher in drive (My current competition dog - Zane - is like this)....great for the obedience phase (for drive and power), but not so great for an already high in drive younger dog that needs to learn to cap his own drives and be obedient in the protection phase. Then one would have to consider the distance from handler to dog...especially in the protection phase. Like any other training tool...in the right hands....it serves a useful purpose. I personally think it is humane to train/proof (not to be confused with the learning/teaching phase) utilizing what methods works best for each individual dog...rather then nag with corrections on daily/weekly basis using a tool that obviously has little to no effect for that particular dog.

I over-heard a remark by a helper/decoy specifically concerning his mindset while working Dobermans....that left me thinking. He stated that Dobermans are pretty smart dogs (no surprise to any one on this forum I'm sure)...that if a helper permits a Dobe to get away even once with a fly-by without consequences (not necessarily talking physical correction) and even worse is permitted an "easy bite" after a fly-by....it'll take awhile to extinguish this - if ever, consistently . Dobes are thinkers.....his opinion was that they figure why expel so much energy and slam into a sleeve at high speed when they can pass the first bite up and receive an easier second try. Makes sense...especially when I've witnessed, more then a few times on various training fields....dog flies past the initial long bite and a helper will stand still without any pressure to the dog what so ever or worse he gives a prey (helper moves away/backwards from the dog) bite . At trials, even though the helper is required to drive/attack towards a dog that fails to engage/stick on the long bite....it's still an "easier" bite if for no other reason then distance/impact.

In response to Steve's comments specifically about my previous post:

Judges - I've found that who I consider a "hard" judge is an "easy" judge for others...and the other way around. Rather then train a dog for a specific judge - hard or easy by anyone's standards - I try to train so that my dog meets every requirement that is stated in the rule book to its highest level. How I interpret the rules, just like judges, is subject to interpretation. I once asked a specific question to three different judges and obtained three different answers and three different opinions as to how many points would/would not be deducted. Note: I was not trying to trick or prove anything - it was an honest question that I was really wanting to know the answer to. It's all about interpretation. What one judge sees as a dog that is to fast on the track......another judge might see as a dog that is free and has alot of drive for tracking. A dog that is slow and meticulous on the track...one judge sees as "to much pressure" while another has high praise for the dogs correctness and intensity. There is one particular judge (USA) that many people would call "easy". I have alot of respect for her....she is the reason I even decided to pursue the sport. Her pencil is not as sharp at club trials or trialing a SchH1 versus a SchH3 team, as it is at a regional or higher event....but then should it be? What she is--is fair and consistent with each team - easy-going and very cordial to each team.......which I can't help but respect and admire. No doubt she has assisted in keeping and drawing numerous new competitors to this sport..... AND Dobes were her first breed to compete with

As for titles - I should have been more specific...I don't understand why it is of such importance to obtain the highest level title = SchH 3, MR3, FR3 etc on a bitch....before breeding. As you well know.....the years it takes to attain those titles are long.....then to find out that the female is incapable of even having puppies or is not a good mother or produces way below what she is. I think that many people breed/have bred SchH3 dogs (of various breeds) that were much less then what should be bred but hey they titled....mainly because of all the time, money etc that it took to obtain the title - when the results probably could have been seen many years prior.

Last edited by K9Jarko; 07-07-2009 at 07:40 AM..
K9Jarko is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Join Date: Dec 2006
The Following User Says Thank You to K9Jarko For This Useful Post:
Khiera (07-07-2009)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:07 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0 Beta 2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2 ©2009, Crawlability, Inc.
@2005 - 2008 DobermanTalk.com
PetGuide.com
Basset.net DobermanTalk.com GoldenRetrieverForum.com OurBeagleWorld.com
BoxerForums.com DogForums.com GoPitbull.com PoodleForum.com
BulldogBreeds.com FishForums.com HavaneseForum.com SpoiledMaltese.com
CatForum.com GermanShepherds.com Labradoodle-dogs.net YorkieForum.com
Chihuahua-People.com RetrieverBreeds.com