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Old 02-01-2009, 08:48 PM   #1 (permalink)
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List of faults/point deductions for AKC Obedience?

I am reading through the AKC Obedience Rules & Regulations and can't find a list of faults / point deduction schedule. There is one listed for Rally - like it lists specifically what constitutes 10 point, 3 point, 1 point deductions. Is there something like that listed for obedience? Like when 1/2 points are deducted, etc. I can't find it it in the rule book.
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Old 02-01-2009, 08:51 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 02-01-2009, 09:17 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Burns View Post
I am reading through the AKC Obedience Rules & Regulations and can't find a list of faults / point deduction schedule. There is one listed for Rally - like it lists specifically what constitutes 10 point, 3 point, 1 point deductions. Is there something like that listed for obedience? Like when 1/2 points are deducted, etc. I can't find it it in the rule book.
Hi Burns,

I don't believe the point deductions for Obedience are quantified in the same fashion that they are for Rally.

What you get is written in the Obedience Judges Guidelines as narrative in the instructions for the judges as well as in the Obedience Regulations. There are notes as to what should be a substantial deduction and what should be a minor deduction. I thought, that at one time, in the Obedience Rules and Regulations that there was a one or two page section in the Judges Guidelines that had actually numbers on what a substantial deduction was for each exercise and what a minor deduction was.

The Regs that I was looking through is probably well out of date since it was the one Amended to March 10, 2003 (guess I better order a new one) but if I'm not simply imagining things the numerical values for substantial and minor deductions must have been from a much older version--and that could go back as far as the late 60's when I was putting a CD on an Afghan Hound.

I do a lot of brain picking of judges--fortunately I know several and can ask questions of them about how (in theory) they would score a dog in a particular circumstance.

The other thing you might do is go to the AKC website and there's a place where you can ask questions and they will e-mail you back. That was how we settled the question of plastic snap collars being acceptable collars for AKC agility (yes, they are).
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Old 02-01-2009, 09:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
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There are no set deductions because there are no set definitions for what a judge has to take off. How many points you lose will depend on how poorly the dog performs and what the judge sees.

How much your dog lags and how far it deviates from heel position will determine how many points the judge will take off.
How much it forges, same thing. How crooked on the sit, how crooked on the front, the finish, etc. Crowding, interference, overall lack of teamwork. Generally more leniency is given in Novice A, for example, than in B. They typically give you a second command on the heel before they will NQ you and a lot more freedom in body language before they are going to NQ you.

Small things are half points, larger things are whole points. It's up to the judge and what they see. There is a spectrum from minor to substantial, and it just depends on how poor the performed exercise is.
No sits, no fronts, etc will be 3 points each. Double commands can be 3 points or NQ's depending on what it is and what exercise and what you do.
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Old 02-01-2009, 09:24 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Here is your breakdown of how you can screw up... I mean, how you can lose points

http://www.akc.org/pdfs/novicess.pdf

http://www.akc.org/pdfs/openass.pdf

im too lazy to post the rest.

like i said - in NovA they are going to let you get away with a LOT more than they will in any other class.
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Old 02-02-2009, 03:40 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Thanks dobebug and Kim! Those score sheets are helpful, Kim - thanks for posting them.

So its up to the judges discretion, basically. In general, how many points off are consider "minor" deductions (like 3 points?) and "substantial" deductions (like 5 points?). I understand each judge will score differently, but I just trying to get a general idea for what the terminology means.
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Old 02-02-2009, 05:46 PM   #7 (permalink)
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minors are usually .5-1, substantials are 3+
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Old 02-02-2009, 08:07 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Rah's score sheets read like this:

forge .5, forge .5, bump .5 crowding .5 crooked sit 1
interference 1 crooked sit .5 crooked sit 1
crooked front .5

mix and match, it's usually one of the same.

minor's add up, depending on your judge. 2 years and we're still working on interference, forging and crowding

you also lose points for things like slow sits, no sits, you can lose them for wide recalls if the dog really deviates from straight, lagging, moving feet on the SFE, etc... we're just incredibly consistent on where we lost points he occassionally throws in a no sit (3) for the first halt (which is really just a poor cue from me - so its my fault), but while rah's heeling gets us compliments outside the ring, it gets us hit for points inside the ring. there's a certain crowd that appreciates it - unfortunately, most of them aren't the ones judging me that day! we shall see how he fares in the open ring, off leash is always better than on, the leash is just too tempting for him. i think its his inner struggle not to tug on it that he spends the entire heeling pattern reminding himself "dont tug on the leash, do not go and tug on the leash, the leash is not a tug toy, do not tug on the leash unless mom says so".
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Old 02-02-2009, 09:15 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Thanks elle and kim, that helps a lot. I'm not planning on entering our first obedience novice A trial til later this summer, but I'm trying to gauge the things we need to work on and get a good grasp about how obedience is scored.

I was going to enter and try for our first CD leg next month because I think we could at least scrape by and qualify, but my trainer thinks that Red could be a very competitive dog and we should wait til we're more polished before starting. In other words, she's not going to let me squeak by with a qualifying score when she knows we are capable of better. I know she's right, but I'm just excited to start going for that CD!
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Old 02-02-2009, 09:56 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I found showing and having judges tell me what I needed to improve on was helpful because I was able to see how the performances held up in the rings - the judges would go over where I was losing points and I was able to take that back to training . Rah got his first leg in March as a tester, and then I held him back 6 more months before I brought him back out. Of course, I also train with two judges so I'm able to have them score me in training too, but it's different when you're in the ring at a trial setting and there's a lot more distraction there. In fact, it makes me wonder why I picked the GSA show to debut Rah on friday...

Isn't your trainer able to tell you how many points youre losing on the exercises when she watches? Is this the saturday trainer?
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Old 02-03-2009, 01:03 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Isn't your trainer able to tell you how many points youre losing on the exercises when she watches? Is this the saturday trainer?
Yes, the same one. We haven't really done full run-throughs of novice obedience because I've been concentrating more on Rally stuff. But she said she will run us through this Saturday and see how we do.

I've gone to a couple fun matches and do a novice run, and I find the judges' critiques and information very helpful. There hasn't been fun matches in awhile though but they are starting back up this month. I don't think they actually score us - just give us the commands. I guess I could ask next time if they could informally score me just to give me an idea.

What you did with Rah is what I was thinking of doing with Red - trialing in March for the 1st leg, and then not going back into the obedience ring til the end of summer.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:10 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Thank you doberkim for putting the score sheet in here it really breaks it down for me. I am cometeing next year with my dog.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:14 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Old 02-03-2009, 07:18 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I agree to try a leg in March to see what you need to work on. I was planning on that with Cheers, but she was really consistent so we finished up her CD on a weekend...however, I will stay in Novice B with her all spring and summer.

I've gotten 3 or 4 with Rex for a no sit depending on the judge;generally it will be .5 for a crooked front, .5 crooked finish.

Cheers got 3 off for her first front/finish the first day's recall, as she paused briefly in a sit, and then popped into heel position before i told her. My instructor said it would have been 5 points off if she had gone straight to heel position without doing a front first.

Some judges are more lenient than others, thus my club has certain people that they know to add a few points or subtract a few points from a performance on any given day!

Hope this helps!
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Old 02-03-2009, 08:00 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Yeah there are certain judges known for certain things, Before I enter any show I take all the entries to my trainers and let them know the judges and they tell me if the judge is worth an entry. They encourage me to enter to everyone, but every time they have told me there is something off about a judge so far, they have been 100% correct. Granted, Rah has still done well, but he could have done better under the right judge! Some judges just have some "issues" (like not even watching the ring so they don't see you aren't ready before they call commands... and you lose points for it )

I also have my list of judges that are very kind to Rah's ... ahem... style of heeling, and judges that are not. Some judges flat out come over to me and tell me that his heeling is nice, one came over and joked and said she LOVED him and I cost him the points (DEFINITELY will show to her all I can!), others didn't give him the points he deserved so I'm not going to go out of my way to show to them. Got the placements right, but the points weren't spread out where they should have been and judge wasn't willing to discuss it, he didn't have a substantial so we couldn't see where he lost 5 points? unless she had an error in her scorebook, and she didn't want to talk about it! I also have a list of judges that have had Dobes in the past and they love them doberdudes One kept coming over to pet Rah outside the ring and sure enough, he moved on his SFE for him to lean on her. We were joking in the ring that this isn't a social call!
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Last edited by doberkim; 02-03-2009 at 08:04 PM..
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Old 02-03-2009, 08:21 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Thanks for all the info about scoring - it really helps a lot. I think I will have Michelle take me through a run this Saturday and see what she thinks... I'm still really tempted to do the March show. We'll be in Novice A so I think Red could still be competitive in that class. ah the decisions!

And good idea to ask around about the different judges. I will definitely do that. There is more strategy to this than I thought!
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