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Old 01-15-2013, 02:56 PM   #1 (permalink)
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BYB Dogs vs Horses

As someone who actively participates and works amongst upper level show jumpers, I get why we all spend such a pretty penny on our horses. We need good breeding. No ifs ands or buts. We simply couldn't do what we do without darn near perfect conformation and breeding.

So why does no one seem to care about poorly bred, BYB horses? To me, its the same thing! Am I wrong?


Just a thought....
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:14 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I believe byb anything is going to have its ups and downs and isnt ok regardless the species. Each animal if it is to be bred should under go certain health tests and evaluations to ensure the future of the stock is healthy.


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Old 01-15-2013, 03:29 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I have been jumping my whole life and happen to own an expenisive horse that had many hoof problems. So..he was turned into a trail/kids horse...
The jumping horses have to be able to endure the exercise of jumping and stay sound so maybe all of the not so good horses get turned into trail horses or kid/pasture horses like my boy did?

I assume we dont look at breeding a bad quality horse as much because they only have one and not 8...then they dont end up in kill shelters?

hmm...interesting..
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:34 PM   #4 (permalink)
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You have to remember that not everyone who owns & enjoys horses has the same wants/needs as a high end show animal- so I think that what constitutes a BYB is likely quite different than with dogs..

You also have to remember that the whole reason BYB horses came about was the $$ that could be made selling them to the meat trade. Once the slaughterhouses were shut down the number of horses abandoned and unwanted skyrocketed almost overnight. Not quite the same with dogs, at least in most countries.

I have 6 rescues horses, 1 likely a BYB, but the other 5 are well bred, fully registered (2 of them double registered) from excellent stock. 2 from show stock (they were FREE, and in terrible shape when rescued). I despise many "show" horse people because they treat a horse like an object, to be dumped once it is no longer useful (able to compete and win). So, different strokes
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:57 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I think the part that really irks me is that people will settle for a horse with obvious problems (conformationally). I see so many young riders that buy "cute" horses, only for them to not be able to handle whatever it is that the rider wants to do. Then, these riders end up with a loser trainer who just dopes the horse for a quick buck! But, that's a whole different issue.

In the end, bad conformation will cause problems. Always and forever. Unless they are a pasture pet, I suppose. No decent, ethical breeder would produce these horses.

In the end I guess it's all for a quick buck. Dogs, horses, whatever. Sad.
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:03 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Another thought- Inbreeding!

Common amongst horses, especially with the "better" bred horses. Any breeders out there that can chime in?

Why is this bad for dogs, and okay with horses?
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:16 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Another thought- Inbreeding!

Common amongst horses, especially with the "better" bred horses. Any breeders out there that can chime in?

Why is this bad for dogs, and okay with horses?
In my opinion it isn't.

When I decided to breed my Mare, I knew her faults had to be ironed out by choosing the right Stallion. I spent months searching.

She had a long back, so I looked for a Stallion with a shorter back.
She had fine legs, so I looked for a Stallion with sturdier legs.
She had a very long neck, so I looked for a Stallion who had a shorter neck.

She was a Thoroughbred.
The Stallion I chose was a Danish Warmblood.

The foal they produced was an absolute beauty, his back was in proportion to his neck, his legs sturdy but not clumpy.

I guess to some I was nothing more than a backyard breeder. After all I didnt show/compete my Mare in shows/events higher than County level.
I did health test, in that I made sure she was fit to have a foal and of course tried to iron out her conformation problems.
I didn't breed to sell and make money.
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:35 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I grew up on a Morgan show/breeding/training farm, and still train and show them. We are extremely careful when breeding our horses, and also careful about where we purchase horses from.

BYB horses/inbreeding etc, all of that is not ok as far as I'm concerned. We've traveled far for good horses, and have had people call us "snobs" when it comes to our bloodlines/breeding. We aren't at all, we just know how important quality horses are, and have the awards/titles to show why quality horses/breeding are important.

I just don't think it's talked about as much because not just everyone has horses like they do dogs. Usually the people buying crappy bred horses aren't going to be in the same circle as the people breeding/training/competing high end horses. Those of us who are serious horse people know the importance for sure. I hope my thoughts make sense it's been a long day.

Also, I do think some show people view their horses as "objects" but definitely not all. In our circle (the Morgan circuit) most of us take great pride in our horses, and love each and every one, we worry and care about their well being. If they don't retire on our farm, they are found a loving permanent home on a contract that stipulates they are to come back to us if anything changes (among other things in the contract). We are extremely picky about where we sell or retire our horses, and most of our peers in this breed are as well. We show them because we are proud of what we have bred, and because we enjoy it, but our horses are every bit as loved as our other pets.

I rode racehorses for many years, now there is an industry where they are really treated like objects. There are a couple good farms that are responsible for their horses after their racing career is finished, but overall they are far worse than the show industry.

Last edited by Shell81; 01-15-2013 at 04:42 PM..
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Old 01-15-2013, 06:08 PM   #9 (permalink)
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(Tight) Line breeding isn't bad in dogs... IF you know what you are doing (and how to 'handle' the results). Unfortunately most BYB's a) don't know what they're doing & B) don't care & c) are not linebreeding so much as inbreeding too close too often due to convienience.

As with everything.....a tool is just a tool....it's the skill and knowledge of the person who wields it that counts.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:47 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shell81 View Post
I grew up on a Morgan show/breeding/training farm, and still train and show them. We are extremely careful when breeding our horses, and also careful about where we purchase horses from.

BYB horses/inbreeding etc, all of that is not ok as far as I'm concerned. We've traveled far for good horses, and have had people call us "snobs" when it comes to our bloodlines/breeding. We aren't at all, we just know how important quality horses are, and have the awards/titles to show why quality horses/breeding are important.

I just don't think it's talked about as much because not just everyone has horses like they do dogs. Usually the people buying crappy bred horses aren't going to be in the same circle as the people breeding/training/competing high end horses. Those of us who are serious horse people know the importance for sure. I hope my thoughts make sense it's been a long day.

Also, I do think some show people view their horses as "objects" but definitely not all. In our circle (the Morgan circuit) most of us take great pride in our horses, and love each and every one, we worry and care about their well being. If they don't retire on our farm, they are found a loving permanent home on a contract that stipulates they are to come back to us if anything changes (among other things in the contract). We are extremely picky about where we sell or retire our horses, and most of our peers in this breed are as well. We show them because we are proud of what we have bred, and because we enjoy it, but our horses are every bit as loved as our other pets.

I rode racehorses for many years, now there is an industry where they are really treated like objects. There are a couple good farms that are responsible for their horses after their racing career is finished, but overall they are far worse than the show industry.
^^^Yes.

It is the same, in principle.

In fact, milling and greeding can happen across all species. And, I've known folks who were awesome dog owners who sucked as chinchilla owners. Fabulous cat people who were lousy at fishkeeping, etc, etc.

I think it boils down to basic thought, care, and commitment, for any species.

And we sure as heeeeellllll have an overpopulation problem when it comes to mediocre horses, just the same as we have dog and cat overpopulation issues.

If you want a fix on this type of discussion, head on over to the Fugly Horse of the Day blog

Edit to add: Oh, and when a horse is abandoned, it's a hell of a bigger problem (literally) than when a dog or cat is dumped. Lots more resource$ needed, and often harder to find a suitable adopter.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:16 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Honestly, at the upper levels of Hunter/Jumpers, I see TONS of registered, NON byb horses get sold to idiots who think that because the horse costs this much, can jump this high, has been in these events etc, it is actually a nice horse.

My trainer is very a old-school trainer. She's been around for ages, and trained and grew up with the top hunter equitation trainers and riders of today. She has an 'eye' for horses better than 99% of people I have met. The amount of horses she can look at at a horse show and say they are "more crippled than dammit" is appalling. And these are ALWAYS horses costing well over $50k. She's always been that person who finds these incredible horses from the middle of nowhere that look like nothing, but turn into something.

I paid $1 for my horse that I got from her. She was an OTTB mare who did upper level eventing for 10 years before being "thrown out". Most people would pick out random conformation flaws from her in a heartbeat. BUT my trainer knows better than that and always said she has the build to be around for a very long time. She is currently 26yo, almost 27. She raced, and has jumped and shown competitively her ENTIRE life. Not once in the past 10 years of me owning her has she had soundness issues.

Is she fancy? No, is she from some amazing showjumping background? No. Her trot looks like hell, and her conformation is not perfect, but her jump is incredible (not flat with super flashy knees), and her overall physique has kept her in incredible shape for almost 27 years.

I do not personally know a single "super special, papered world competing showjumper" that is alive, happy, jumping, and without soundness issues at 27 years old.

But I do know of an old barn, hidden in the hills, with an old owner who doesn't get out much more. And that barn is full of happy, healthy, sound, and still working 23+ year old horses who the average competitive show jumper would rate as "crap".
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:23 PM   #12 (permalink)
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ETA: My point of that "story" is that in hunter/jumper world, I see alot of touting about who's parent is from where doing what, and then when you see the actual horse as a horse not as their papers, they soon loose their "special image".

Fabulous horses on paper under a fat shiny coat and talented rider do not make the horse any better. I've seen quite a few horses from relatively unknown pedigrees have much much better conformation, soundness, and form than others that had a nearly 10X higher price tag.

Because of how I was brought up in the horse world, I look at and evaluate horses as "a horse", not a "fancy hunter mare out of Apiro X whoever". People often get too caught up in this....

I was never involved in any breeding of any horses, so can't comment as such. The only BYB's around here for horses are all gaited horses.
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:48 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Asmit, you're mixing up two separate issues.

The point is, yes, there is a BYB problem with horses, just as in dogs.

Can you sometimes find gems from undistinguished lineage? Well, sure. Lendon Grey kinda made a career of that, among others.

You can also find a fabulous dog from a shelter, sometimes. One that is healthy and sound and talented at some sport, I mean.

But, that doesn't mean the breeding programs that produced those animals should ever be encouraged.

Neither should a breeding program that has lots of flash and fancy, but produces crippled cariacatures of sound, working horses.

Witness most halter programs--and esp. futurity halter, such as the AQHA program, for one example, and all that ensues from pursuit of glory in that arena.
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Old 01-16-2013, 03:26 AM   #14 (permalink)
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There are good and bad in all walks of life.

I have often found that some folk place a high price tag on a horse simply because it is a Thoroughbred, a Danish Warmblood or can jump this high with its hooves tied behind its back when in reality if they look at the horse it is obvious that whilst at 8 it can do these things, by 18 it will be knackered. Conformation does play a great part in a horses suitability, in fact it plays one heck of a large part, however, there are horses out there that look like a bag of shite and perform as if they were the best thing to be put under saddle ever.

My Mare was an ex-racehorse, after her short but reasonably successful career in flat racing, she was put over hurdles, then over point to point and then came into hunting as a Whipper In's horse. We bought her because my son jelled with her from the moment he sat on her back.
At the time he was mad keen on Cross Country, but soon after getting her he began schooling her and ended up eventing her. Her back and neck were a shade too long for her to be considered confirmationally correct, Whilst her legs were a little too fine, (this is what contributed to her early retirement due to a deep flexor tendon blowing). We knew of her faults and took every care in making sure she was bandaged, booted and suited whenever she competed. Yet whilst one day out on a ride she blew her tendon and was considered a right off. Months of nursing brought her back to health and whilst I was happy to keep her as a companion my son begged to be allowed to breed with her and so began the search for a Stallion who would iron out her faults, the result of which was an absolutely amazing foal. Easily it could have all gone wrong, but we did as much research spoke to some of the top breeders in the country and well we hit paydirt when our baby was born.

Was it luck, hell yes, topped off with a huge amount of time and money trying to do the right thing.

My sons other horse, another Thoroughbred gelding cost me 2500 English Pounds. (this was back in the 80's so it was quite a sum even though it sounds cheap now) He was an eventer but had competed very successfully at Grand Prix Dressage. He was so eyecatching it stopped your heart I do swear, but he was an absolute devil of a horse for most to be around who brushed something chronic if he were not bandaged to high heaven.
When we came across him the owner wanted my son to have him above making money out of his sale. She knew if we took him on he would be feted like a king. Some 2 years after we got my sons horse I was offered 30,000 English Pounds for him. I wasn't interested. Firstly the horse was not for sale and secondly the person just wanted a winning machine, which trust me that horse was anything but. You had to ride him and ride him well or you got nothing out of him.

So what did the people who wanted him do, they bought his brother and learnt the hard way that horses whilst they may come from the same line do not necessarily follow in each others footsteps.

We ended up with him too, he became my hack, nothing more, nothing less, but boy was he loved.

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Old 01-16-2013, 10:15 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
Asmit, you're mixing up two separate issues.

The point is, yes, there is a BYB problem with horses, just as in dogs.

Can you sometimes find gems from undistinguished lineage? Well, sure. Lendon Grey kinda made a career of that, among others.

You can also find a fabulous dog from a shelter, sometimes. One that is healthy and sound and talented at some sport, I mean.

But, that doesn't mean the breeding programs that produced those animals should ever be encouraged.

Neither should a breeding program that has lots of flash and fancy, but produces crippled cariacatures of sound, working horses.

Witness most halter programs--and esp. futurity halter, such as the AQHA program, for one example, and all that ensues from pursuit of glory in that arena.
Was never involved in the other sports, but did meet a few national level halter AQHA mares. Ones who were on actual steroids, enough to the point where they could actually no longer reproduce. The horses were almost not horses. Just like in dogs, I think there are a lot of breeds being 'overdone'.

I just have a bit "less stock" in 'well bred' hunter/jumpers anymore. Have many friends with horses worth 10-15x the value of my car, and when looking at the horse as just a horse, I really don't see it. I don't think that is 'right' at all. Especially considering the amount of wasted money they gave to some greedy breeder who is pumping out "well bred" horses left and right.

I honestly have not seen many horses competing around here that are also being bred and therefore being considered BYBs. Now as far as general purpose horses, yes definitely. There are tons of bafoons breeding horses for the sake of breeding, and they end up in the local rescue which is also ran by bafoons. (Granted bafoons that have their hearts in the right place most of the time).

I guess I just do not know of many people competing with horses of unknown pedigrees and then breeding them? I could probably find a couple, but the 7 years I competed, I maybe saw one hunter/jumper breeder that I would consider a horse BYB.

You mentioned 'greeding' in a previous post, and that was the original turn I was trying to take that post but somehow got lost in translation I've seen many many many more large scale greeders in the hunter/jumper scene than simply just your average BYB slapping a couple horses together.

However, as someone else mentioned, there is far fewer horses out there being bred and thrown into shelters. Guess its a good thing horses only have 1 foal.

ETA None of the horses from my past have been purchased via encouraging their breeding. Most are/have been OTTB's, 'freebies', or young prospects from large breeding facilities that weren't apparently "up to par". My trainer/barn owner always said 99% of horses have no right being bred. So I guess because of her feelings, I was kept pretty secluded from the BYB horse breeding crap.

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Old 01-16-2013, 10:38 PM   #16 (permalink)
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However, as someone else mentioned, there is far fewer horses out there being bred and thrown into shelters. Guess its a good thing horses only have 1 foal.


Someone else up there said something to this effect.

Gosh, do you guys have any idea how many dogs could be saved, with the resources needed to save just ONE horse?

And, the reason you don't see them landing in kill shelters so often is that most shelters don't accept them. Those that do have very limited space, generally.

Horse rescues are overwhelmed. Slammed, actually.

Horses are starving and suffering neglect in crappy pastures, in barns behind the house, in dry lots and overgrazed gullies, all over this country.

We don't need anyone producing any more mediocre.

Just as we always preach with Dobermans--there is no need to produce anything except the best of the best (proven by competing), with thought and care and research and careful pairings and any applicable health testing.
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Old 01-16-2013, 10:48 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I was a competitive hunter/jumper rider from when I was 4 until 16 (I still ride, but just for leisure, although I do miss it). I've broke horses, dabbled in dressage (not my favorite), and have experienced a plethora of horses over the years. From my experiences, I see both sides here.

I understand why many pay a pretty penny for their horses. I think it depends on the purpose the owner had in mind when looking for a breeder/horse and the amount at stake. As you, and anyone involved in competitive riding knows, it's an EXTREMELY expensive sport.

The reason I can see both sides is because of an experience I had with an amazing horse. A mustang was brought to the stable I rode at, and I was told that she was bought at an auction and previously used for barrel racing competitions. She was EXTREMELY muscular. Well, a barrel racing horse to a show jumping horse was going to be quite the transition. She cut corners, sped straight aways at full speed, etc. There was something about her though. To cut a long story short, I worked with her and worked with her to the point where I was the only one who could ride her and who she would respond to. She didn't have the height that many jumping horses had, but boy was she fast and strong. She ended up being the BEST jumping horse I had ever had. Sorry to ramble on and on so much!

On a side-note - I just ordered my doberman an equestrian style coat today and leg warmers haha!
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:04 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedFawnRising View Post
However, as someone else mentioned, there is far fewer horses out there being bred and thrown into shelters. Guess its a good thing horses only have 1 foal.


Someone else up there said something to this effect.

Gosh, do you guys have any idea how many dogs could be saved, with the resources needed to save just ONE horse?

And, the reason you don't see them landing in kill shelters so often is that most shelters don't accept them. Those that do have very limited space, generally.

Horse rescues are overwhelmed. Slammed, actually.

Horses are starving and suffering neglect in crappy pastures, in barns behind the house, in dry lots and overgrazed gullies, all over this country.

We don't need anyone producing any more mediocre.

Just as we always preach with Dobermans--there is no need to produce anything except the best of the best (proven by competing), with thought and care and research and careful pairings and any applicable health testing.
Oh I'm not disagreeing with you at all! Not sure why you may be taking it this way.

Like I said, I've never been involved nor ridden any horse that was supporting mediocre breedings. Half of the barn was actually filled with rescues. Granted most were TB track rescues but still no horses being purchased from breeders.

Yes, the rescue in town is constantly slammed. We had some 150 horse herd rescue effort last year.... Sadly, most all of the horses are some sort of saddle horse/walking horse/any gaited horse cross and due to the huge surplus of these horses already, no one "wants" them.
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