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Old 11-07-2012, 08:05 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Dutch shepherds ?

Hi anyone reading. I was wondering, if anyone knows anything about the Dutch Shepherd? Their energy or the shedding in the house. Also, the health on the breed ? I was checking into the breed on the pretense I choose not to have another doberman. Since my Jasmine has wobblers I just don't know if I can go through the heartache. She is holding on, having done surgery and now will be on constant pain meds and meds for arthritis to keep her going, watching her struggle to get up is more than I can take. I saw a dutch a long time ago and was curious about em but it has been suggested to me now since Jasmine's time is limited. The vet thinks I will be lucky to get 2 more years with her. Unless some of you out there can shed some other info on doberman's to help me make a wise choice. I really do love the breed and have been so devistated over my girl. I never thought I would bond like this to a dog, but I have. I just don't know where the last 7 yrs has gone. Thanks for any advice you shed I could use it.
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Old 11-07-2012, 08:12 PM   #2 (permalink)
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We board one for state patrol, he's a fun guy, I like the size and substance more than mals, but they aren't as much physical dog in body or coat as a german shepherd. Shedding is comprable to your average smooth collie, malinois, etc.... you'll have two seasonal blow outs and minimal regular hair loss in between. Here's a few links for ya

Dutch Shepherd Club

Dutch Shepherd, Dutch Shepherd Dog Club of America Home Page

HOME

Dutch Shepherd Forum • Index page

This last one is a forum Hopefully those give you lots of info.
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Old 11-07-2012, 08:41 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I love Dutchies. Brindle is one of my favorite coat patterns. I rescued an adult DS from a shelter over the summer but the foster and I had to euthanize him due to distemper and his emaciated state. That happened on my birthday and I was devastated as I really thought he was going to make it.

If you can handle a working breed you'll do fine with a DS. They seem to be pretty hardy dogs.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:03 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Well, thanks a bunch for responding, I will check out those sites. I did call a couple of breeders but of course they are not going to say alot of bad about what they are breeding. I see on most of any dutch sites they are doing alot of bite work and stuff. I won't be doing schutzhund or police work, just a home companion doing fun things, basic commands, etc. I just didnt know how they would be in the house while at wrk. Some dogs get very bored and chew or destroy the house, since they are pretty high energy was a bit worried. AND I may decide yet on another dobe in the future. Thanks you 2 I need to go see them sometime.
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Old 11-07-2012, 09:05 PM   #5 (permalink)
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My friend that trains with me just got their new Dutch puppy. Last weekend the breeders visited with the bitch's sire as well.

The dutch girl is very very very high drive. Her prey drive is out the roof. But she has strange little quirks about her that I do not find in most of the working line dobermans. She is sweet, but was originally very suspicious of strangers. She has two extremely distinct 'levels' and her inner switch flips back and forth a whole lot more than I like or am used to with the dobermans. She and her father are both more twitchy and go go go than the Dobes as well. Keep in mind, I'm talking about the high drive working lined dobermans, not your average 'pet'.

I've only dealt with dutchies that are working lined and only seen Dutchies that are working line, so I honestly don't know what you would get with a 'non working line' one. They are extremely intelligent, very quick and 'sneaky' (for lack of a better word), and certainly a better size and build IMO than the GSDs. A lot of young working dogs go through reactive phases, but oh man this girl used to just light up on anything for the sake of doing such. As an adolescent she lacks much control over her drives, and also feeds off of her more timid handler.

Her owner/handler has always owned GSDs from all sorts of backgrounds, but mainly rescue. He's always played around with schutzhund, but wanted a dog who was actually bred for it. And I have to say, despite him having up to 7 dogs at a time and is a very good trainer, he is more overwhelmed by this one 40lb girl than he has ever been in his entire life.

They are a working breed, and do really need a job. Possibly more so than the average doberman is content with. The dobermans seem to be happier just being with their people, whereas the Dutch shep's I have met have needed a real job. I don't know how many lower drive Dutchies there out there simply because I haven't seen one, but without an active sport to train in and an accomplished trainer, I would not mess with buying a Dutch shepherd from a working breeder.
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Old 11-07-2012, 11:35 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Fortheloveofadoberman View Post
Well, thanks a bunch for responding, I will check out those sites. I did call a couple of breeders but of course they are not going to say alot of bad about what they are breeding. I see on most of any dutch sites they are doing alot of bite work and stuff. I won't be doing schutzhund or police work, just a home companion doing fun things, basic commands, etc. I just didnt know how they would be in the house while at wrk. Some dogs get very bored and chew or destroy the house, since they are pretty high energy was a bit worried. AND I may decide yet on another dobe in the future. Thanks you 2 I need to go see them sometime.
If you are just looking for a companion, check out the Dutch Shepherd rescue. They are nation-wide and do great work. They are very active on Facebook as well and transport Dutchies all over to new homes.

North American Dutch Shepherd Rescue
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:11 PM   #7 (permalink)
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My trainer has one trained for protection. GREAT dog, I would say they are right in the middle between a Mal and a gsd... Mal's shed slightly less but still, dutchies aren't as bad as GSD's. I would 100% agree on going to see one before you get yourself into one, they are not nearly as laid back as most Dobe's are. Even a laid back Mal or Dutch still has a crazy amount of energy that needs to be stimulated. I dont do bite work or anything with my Mal and she is a TON of work, I love it though because I love her and don't mind but it can get really annoying, IE having a 75lb dog jumping all over you while your trying to get some work done on the computer and after pushing her off 9000 times, she settles down on your lap and stares at you until you go play.

I don't know how active your life style is but these dogs need work and have a job. Dutch's are very healthy besides there hips which all these types of dogs are known for.

If you do get one and you choose a puppy, tell your ethical breeder exactly what your looking for in your puppy. This way, they'll choose a nice laid back pup for you that wont destroy everything in your house

ps this is not what you want

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Old 11-08-2012, 04:06 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I thought about getting one then I found out they tended to be basket cases, so I didn't.
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Old 11-08-2012, 04:31 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I got to meet a Timo son at the park I take Griffin to. He was amazing. His owner also took great care to educate folks looking at him just how intense these dogs are. They need a job, they have a ton of energy. They're a real good working breed, though. This dog was quiet, focused, and very, very intense. He was very responsive to his handler though, and once he got to know you, enjoyed getting pats.

From what I understand, there aren't a whole lot of non-working line Dutchies. It's a breed that hasn't been co-opted by the show world yet and doesn't have a demand for golden retriever like personalities for pet Dutchies, the way we see in some of the other working breeds. They also has a reputation of being difficult to own because of the energy and training needs of the dogs. I've met a few Dutchies, and all of their owners stressed the need for the dog to have a job and copious amounts of exercise. They are not 9-5 couch potato dogs. They're not marshmallows either.

I haven't heard too much about Dutchies being basket cases. However, the few that I've met were all owned by people who were aware of their needs and saw to it that the dogs were trained and had an outlet for all that energy. Two were schutzhund dogs, one was a police K9, and the last one was a pet whose owners ran him in agility and had him for a hiking/backpacking companion.

Dutchies are on my short list of breeds I'm interested in for a second dog, someday. Those, or a real good working line GSD. I like the personality, the energy, the intensity, and the fact that overall, Dutch Shepherds are a healthy breed.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:36 AM   #10 (permalink)
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By a basket case, I mean a madly driven dog that needs a job or will become destructive.
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Old 11-09-2012, 09:51 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Wanted to add a bit more. I agree with what was said about DS's not being watered down as much as the dobermans have been. They are not 'show dogs' and have retained working ability overall. I've never heard of a non-working DS, and not sure if they exist from good breeders. If you are really set on the breed though, I would look for one in a rescue that you can accurately assess their livability and drives.

The stories the DS breeder was talking about with their current 1-2yos were pretty darn ridiculous as far as the stuff they 'get into' outside of working. And I thought dobermanns were bad.

I just wanted to add that maybe don't give up on a doberman. Although no one can 'guarantee' a long healthy life, there are some breeders out there known to have good longevity 10-12+. Not sure where your current girl came from, but many reputable breeders offer a good chance of your dog living a happy healthy life.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:06 AM   #12 (permalink)
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By a basket case, I mean a madly driven dog that needs a job or will become destructive.
I was about to say...bull terriers are known as basket cases so I was confused as to why you mentioned not wanting to deal with a dog bc it's a basket case ;p
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:21 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Lolz, they are indeed!
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Old 11-09-2012, 03:37 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Dutch Shepherds and malinois are in essense the same breed. Dutchies are stripy or black malinois that the fci countries would not register. KNVP in Holland doesn't give a rip about registrations (and usually any registration they do, everyone knows is a complete fake, but they can get "papers" on anything you want). The KNVP wants dogs that work, it doesn't care what they are.

There are many times you will get malinois puppies out of "dutch shepherd" breeding and most "dutch shepherds" are out of malinois or malinois crosses.

So, knowing the background please do not be fooled into thinking that the dutchie is a "mid point" between a mali and a gsd. They are NOTHING like GSD and EVERYTHING like malinois.

The one major difference is that because so few places recognize them, they are not and never will be a "show dog". There are no soften downed temperments or lines.

80% of dutchies come from KNVP lines, this is the dutch police trial breeding system. It is a VERY tough system, and pretty much the only dogs they will breed are dogs that do well (all the others ones go elsewhere, because if it can not work and succeed in the system they do not need it). So if you are looking at a dutchie, be aware that it is more than likely a serious working dog.

most of the dutchies I have seen are very sharp. By this I mean dog reactive and ppl reactive. More so than dobes and from a very young age. They tend to be more independant thinkers, harder for physical correction and willing and needing to work.

The ppl that breed here want working dogs, for working programs, such as police k9, french ring, psa, etc.

Having said all of that, I do not know another breed in north america right now that is being more overbred by ppl that know nothing. Be very careful whom you would look to as a breeder. Any idiot can get dutchies and breed them, and they do. And they use the non registration as a free for all to breed anything.

I think there are some very nice dutchies out there working. I would not get one as a house dog, and honestly if I have a choice I would get a malinois over a dutchie.

In regards to shedding, NOTHING sheds like a GSD. I don't find the mali's or the dutchies shed more than a lab, probably less. But it does vary, some dutchies have a longer coat and some have a smoother coat.
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Old 11-09-2012, 03:58 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Phew, that was a close call!
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:24 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sonterra2002 View Post
Dutch Shepherds and malinois are in essense the same breed. Dutchies are stripy or black malinois that the fci countries would not register. KNVP in Holland doesn't give a rip about registrations (and usually any registration they do, everyone knows is a complete fake, but they can get "papers" on anything you want). The KNVP wants dogs that work, it doesn't care what they are.

There are many times you will get malinois puppies out of "dutch shepherd" breeding and most "dutch shepherds" are out of malinois or malinois crosses.

So, knowing the background please do not be fooled into thinking that the dutchie is a "mid point" between a mali and a gsd. They are NOTHING like GSD and EVERYTHING like malinois.

The one major difference is that because so few places recognize them, they are not and never will be a "show dog". There are no soften downed temperments or lines.

80% of dutchies come from KNVP lines, this is the dutch police trial breeding system. It is a VERY tough system, and pretty much the only dogs they will breed are dogs that do well (all the others ones go elsewhere, because if it can not work and succeed in the system they do not need it). So if you are looking at a dutchie, be aware that it is more than likely a serious working dog.

most of the dutchies I have seen are very sharp. By this I mean dog reactive and ppl reactive. More so than dobes and from a very young age. They tend to be more independant thinkers, harder for physical correction and willing and needing to work.


The ppl that breed here want working dogs, for working programs, such as police k9, french ring, psa, etc.

Having said all of that, I do not know another breed in north america right now that is being more overbred by ppl that know nothing. Be very careful whom you would look to as a breeder. Any idiot can get dutchies and breed them, and they do. And they use the non registration as a free for all to breed anything.

I think there are some very nice dutchies out there working. I would not get one as a house dog, and honestly if I have a choice I would get a malinois over a dutchie.

In regards to shedding, NOTHING sheds like a GSD. I don't find the mali's or the dutchies shed more than a lab, probably less. But it does vary, some dutchies have a longer coat and some have a smoother coat.
Thank you for typing this. Your descriptions, especially to the part of the bolded, is everything I have witnessed in my limited exposure, but because I interact with so few DS I didn't want to make a generalization.

Every single one of them I have seen has been very dog and people reactive. The breeder that talked about the young girl being reactive said it's "just a phase" the young dogs go through. But if I was consistently breeding reactive dogs, I'd probably say that too
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Old 11-10-2012, 09:23 AM   #17 (permalink)
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For sure, one of the things that annoys me when I look around at the breeder's websites is the lack of emphais that Dutch Sheperds are not for an unprepared owner. They're not easy dogs to own. Be up front about that. Admit it if your dogs are dog/people reactive. Most of them are selling puppies from working titled parents, and don't do nearly a good enough job about being honest on the personality of puppies from a breeding like that. If Mom and Dad are both working dogs who are titled out the wazoo, guess what some of their puppies are going to be like? Probably not ideal family dogs for someone who isn't very, very prepared. If an unprepared owner winds up with one, they could wind up in rescue later on, adding to the population of unwanted dogs.

Definitely, the Dutchies I talked about in my last post were all owned by people who were aware of just how much time and effort these dogs require. I heard "yeah, if he/she gets bored, he'll creatively rearrange your house, and you'd better own stock in a furniture or drywall company" more than once. Basically, it boils down to if you're not willing to commit to exercise, training, and giving this dog a job, don't get one. They do not make good couch potato pet dogs.

Also, not having a watered down temperament means these dogs aren't for most owners. That's not a bad thing, IMO. Not all breeds are good for every single dog owner out there and they absolutely shouldn't be. I worry that the Dutchies are going to be bred down because of this trend for breeders to throw any two breathing dogs together and then bill the resulting puppies as "perfect family protectors." I hope that never happens.
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Old 11-10-2012, 09:41 AM   #18 (permalink)
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We have a dutch shepherd mix that we got from the humane society! She's a sweetie!
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Old 11-11-2012, 07:33 PM   #19 (permalink)
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WELL I am so grateful to you all for the info on the breed. you are right, none of them except one mentioned anything about how destructive they can be or their sharpness. The one who has written me alot about them said that if i wanted one, they would make sure I got a puppy that was laid back and not one suitable for all the work they do.

I am not sure about the doberman because of the health problems they seem to have. I am so devistated about my jasmine and wobblers that the heartache is just too much right now. Maybe when it is all over for her and my heart heals I will be ok for another one, but from a more active breeder who does health testing up the wazoooo ! I was or thought I was being so careful and asking all the right questions back 7 yrs ago but when you are a novice to the breed I guess you just make mistakes. This dog is just "my girl" and I have bonded with her so much so that I just can't imagine life without her.

When I saw a dutch in my town a long time I was curious about them and I think the man was a truck driver. He said he got his dog from a breeder down south. So when all this hit with my dobe, I thought well maybe I would check out the breed. I never thought I would run into all this. Wonder how a truck driver does with a dog like that if he takes it on the road. I will have to do alot of investigating before I decide on that . I think I have found a really good breeder this time for a dobe puppy. Have you any info on Jager dobermans? I spoke with Cindy Lane who is the agent for him I guess is how I should say. She has been very interested in Jasmine and has steered me into the right direction for getting her help. ( I thought and a vet thought it was just arthritis )

If I need any other help on any breed I know where I can go for sure. You all are just wonderful.. I appreciate it .. Lana
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:28 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Sorry to hear about your Dobe, Lana. I understand the health issues with Dobes, and how discouraging it can be. I love this breed, but part of the reason I'm looking into other breeds is because of health. Both of my Dobrmans have had serious health problems.

To be fair, I knew that I could possibly be dealing with health problems when I chose to rescue Dobermans who needed a home. Doing so meant I have no knowledge of their parent's health, but I chose to take that risk because I wanted to give a dog a home. Griffin, until his Wobblers last year, was the picture of health. The worst thing he did was break one of the big molars in the back of his mouth, chewing on dog knows what. And his hips/elbows are dead on perfect. It made listening to what the vet was telling me that much harder, because I thought he'd be with me until he was an old, old dog. Still, I was prepared for having to deal with the health issues- it took me somewhere around 4 years of research before I was in a position to adopt my first Doberman, so I knew what I was getting into.

I feel selfish for saying so, but after ten years, I need a break. I understand wanting a healthy, long-lived dog. I'll probably always have a Dobe, I love them too much not to. I think perhaps fostering for a Dobe rescue after I get the new puppy settled in and trained is the way that I'll go. That's all going to be a year or two down the line. I have a lot of research left to do before I decide between a Dutch or a working GSD. It's like starting all over again, having to learn about new breeds so I know what I'm getting into before the puppy comes home.

It is encouraging that there are some very, very good Doberman breeders out there who are focusing on health and longevity. If I ever get a Dobe puppy, there's some good options to find a healthy one. However, I don't know anything about Jager dobermans. There might be a thread in the breeders forum on them, though.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:47 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Hi River, I understand how you feel and am sorry about your dog too. I thought I did my homework well 7 yrs ago, when I got her from out east. I was told however, not to blame the breeder, as wobblers is hard to understand and detect. I had surgery on Jasmine, she now has plates and screws in her neck and doing well or as well as can be. She was on and off at first but with pain meds and some other med she has bounced back again. I sleep on the floor with her as it's easier for her and as long as she touches me she is happy and I want her time left to be as happy as possible.

This breed is an amazing breed, and I am thankful daily for having her even if it's for a short time. I just wanted to get some opinions on the dutch, for the future, not sure what I will do. I am not changing my mind about them just the heartache that I have now is just unbearable as you know and probably everyone in here knows.

I wish you well with whatever decision you make in the future. I understand exactly how you feel but isn't it great to have people on this site encouraging us and sharing their stories. I know for the short time I have been on here, I see alot of others going through the same kind of griefs. I probably will get another dobe because they are so easy in the house, and, maybe a different breeder who is doing alot of health testing will be in my favor the next time. lol I hope so cuz that surgery was NOT cheap and I don't want to lose another one so soon. Thanks for the message, I appreciate it River .
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:42 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Definitely, I'm very glad to have the opinions and encouragement on this site. I'm about where you are, still making a decision. It'll be a well informed decision though.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:24 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I also wanted to note, if you choose to get a DS, plan to spend a bunch of cash to import a healthy bred puppy from overseas. It's very hard to find a breeder in the US that has stable DS dog's and your really gambling if you choose them, even gambling more on Petfinder.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:18 PM   #24 (permalink)
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HI Nickyb hmm interesting. I have spoken with a couple of breeders one is up north of me think Michigan and the other is south like Kentucky I think. I have the names of the breeders but from what I have read (not from any breeder) is that the breed is relatively healthy more than the GSD's. I seem to get alot of negative feedback about them and am getting a little gun shy for sure. The breeder in the south sent some Youtube videos to me saying this is a more laid back dutch and is for sale now. I am not in the market for another dog yet just getting some info and thinking is all. I was more concerned about the energy and temperment which has been brought up. I do believe both breeders have said that their dogs were imported from very good lines, but it's as good as it gets with me cuz I wouldnt know a good one from a bad . I only wanted one as a pet in the house not to use in sports or ring. All the breeds that I love are in the wrking group, have lots of hair, or too big. LOL

I do appreciate all and any feedback that is what I need.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:17 PM   #25 (permalink)
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HI Nickyb hmm interesting. I have spoken with a couple of breeders one is up north of me think Michigan and the other is south like Kentucky I think. I have the names of the breeders but from what I have read (not from any breeder) is that the breed is relatively healthy more than the GSD's. I seem to get alot of negative feedback about them and am getting a little gun shy for sure. The breeder in the south sent some Youtube videos to me saying this is a more laid back dutch and is for sale now. I am not in the market for another dog yet just getting some info and thinking is all. I was more concerned about the energy and temperment which has been brought up. I do believe both breeders have said that their dogs were imported from very good lines, but it's as good as it gets with me cuz I wouldnt know a good one from a bad . I only wanted one as a pet in the house not to use in sports or ring. All the breeds that I love are in the wrking group, have lots of hair, or too big. LOL

I do appreciate all and any feedback that is what I need.
Completely understandable, all my favorite breeds are the same!

Coming from my laid back GSD to my current Mal now is night and day. I came off wrong when I said laid back.... What I meant was, a laid back DS is not the same as a laid back GSD, a DS will still be off the wall unless exercised thoroughly, multiple times a day, and if not, there behavior will reflect such. A "laid back" DS still has an absurd amount of energy. I applaud you for doing your research though, most people say, wow he looks cool , i want him! I figured I'd add a picture of my trainer's DS, he does this every time Zoey comes in

This dog is awesome! The breed is awesome! But they require a ton of work and attention. The majority of these dogs really aren't the best house dogs, by that I mean they don't do good in the average household that basically just feeds them and expect them to be couch potatoes. If you do plan to go ahead and get one, then I praise you! I really just want to come across that these dogs require a lot of work, but they are worth it every bit if you are willing to give him the attention.

I figured I'd add a picture of my trainer's DS, he does this every time Zoey comes in He literally stayed like this for a good 5 minutes.

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