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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
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New Member - Just saying Hi

Hi Everybody (Hi Doctor Nick!),

I'm Zack. I am interested in finally getting another doberman puppy. A bit about myself - without being too drawn out hopefully:

First Zack had no dogs for 24 years but always wanted a dog. His parents got him a cat, a hamster, and a fish, which were all terrible substitutes for a dog. But overall the cat was OK, the hamster disappeared one day, and the fish lived for like 14 years (seriously!).

Zack met a girl who had a 3 year old monster doberman (Xander) who scared Zack a little bit. He was 95 lbs and taller than average, but not massive, with what I believe is the perfect doberman personality based on some others I've interacted with in the past. His ears were mutilated little stumps because his original owner had cropped them improperly and they ended up falling off completely. He was funny to look at, but still a gorgeous dog.

Eventually Zack and Xander became best friends. Like the kind of best friends that movies are made from. You guys have Dobermans you understand what I mean. This dog was the absolute definition of mans best friend. He was the most obedient, smartest, most affectionate, most sensitive, and most goofy dog I've ever had the joy of spending time with. He was shy around new people but loved everyone after a few minutes of meeting them. He would come to work with me often and made a bunch of new friends there too. He would tolerate the dozens of "little dogs" that we had fostered over the years nipping at him and jumping all over him. He would protect me from things like ducks at the park, or from people taking their trash out late at night. He was my good boy.

Sadly "the girl" ended up not being "the one" and after a few years we broke up and she moved away. Zack couldn't bring himself to take Xander for himself. He was her best friend too, and her best friend first. Honestly Zack didn't think she could live without him. He didn't realize how painful it would be or expect that he could barely function without his best friend by his side every day.

Around 2 years after the breakup I got a call from "the girl" saying that Xander had gone in to have a large (fist sized) mass removed - after the surgery he had caught pneumonia but he was probably going to be fine. A week after that I got another call saying that he had relapsed badly and hadn't survived the night. To this day I have nightmares about that call.

Life sucked for a while but now I'm finally in a position to get another dog - and guess what I want to get? Another Doberman of course.

So here's my fear. What if the next doberman I get isn't as great as the first doberman I had? What if he/she and I don't have the same kind of bond that I had wth Xander? What if my next dog isn't as eager to please, or as intuitive, or as good natured?

I've been reaching out to reputable breeders to see what might be available in the upcoming months (ideally soon but we all know how that goes). Since we had been involved in rescues in the past, I am also heavily considering a rescue if I find the right pup... But I really want to do everything I can to ensure a HEALTHY puppy that will have the temperament I am looking for and live for as long as possible. My fear of losing out on some valuable years with my dog is worth the cost that any reputable breeder is asking. My morals are conflicted as I would love to "save" a dog - but how can I without knowing its past or its parents and grandparents health? Even if I find a doberman puppy in a shelter or with a rescue, who is to say that dog wasn't the product of some terrible backyard breeder whose parents had every possible terrible doberman health issue? Is a mutt any safer? Realistically, not really right? I'd be OK with a dobie mix...

I also have a young niece, and I don't want to have to worry about any past fears of children if I rescue a slightly older dog... I want to raise and train the dog (and my niece) properly so they will be able to enjoy each other.

Of course I see "cutie and the beast" on instagram and man, that Buddha is the spitting image of Xander. His mannerisms, his gentleness, how he plays, everything about him is just like my dog. I have reached out to foxfire but haven't heard back yet. I'm likely not a good candidate for many of these elite breeders anyway since I don't have any history or interest in showing my dogs. Even less in my favor, since my dog had no ears due to poor cropping, I want his ears to stay natural and "floppy". I've read article after article trying to justify ear cropping, but in my opinion (which might not match yours, but lets not argue that point) it's an unnecessary step in a dogs life. Tails I genuinely see the benefit in docking... So I wouldn't be against a docked tail.

Anyway that's me in a nutshell, I look forward to my adventure and puppy search. I'm sure to be involved in the forum more as I come along in my search.

BTW does anyone have up to date contact info for Irongate? I reached out to Irongate and the email was returned...

If someone knows their current email address, could you Private Message it to me please??

Last edited by melbrod; 05-18-2017 at 06:33 PM. Reason: Removed personal email address from public view
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 06:35 PM
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You may not have the same kind of bond you had with your last dobe...they’re all individual personalities, after all...but you can have a wonderful bond...just different.

It WILL probably be hard to find an un-cropped dobe here--but I wish you luck in your search.
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 07:19 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melbrod View Post
You may not have the same kind of bond you had with your last dobe...they’re all individual personalities, after all...but you can have a wonderful bond...just different.

It WILL probably be hard to find an un-cropped dobe here--but I wish you luck in your search.
Thanks for the positive thoughts. I'm thinking of looking for a mostly opposite version of Xander - maybe a red female instead of a black male - just to help with my expectations. Look, she looks totally different so it's ok and expected that she's got her own completely different personality.

Has anyone cared enough about uncropped ears to source a canadian breeder? I hear (get it, an ear joke?) that they don't allow ear cropping up there. I'd be willing to make that trip for the right breeder.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 07:23 PM
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Very few reputable breeders will sell a puppy uncropped. There are a few reasons for that. First, Most puppies are graded for show or pet quality at about 8-10 weeks which is after they are cropped. A breeder does not want to inadvertently place a show puppy in a pet home as it would be a detriment to their breeding program not keeping or placing the best pups in show homes. Second, most prefer cropped ears and if a puppy or dog is returned to the breeder for whatever reason it will be much easier to place him or her in a new home if the ears are cropped. Third, breeders often feel that every puppy they produce should reflect the breed standard (viewed as c/d breed), breed type, and what they strive to produce, therefore many will not budge. Here are a few other topics on the subject; it has been well covered here. Rescue is always a great option for those who prefer natural ears and do not want to search high and low and encounter dead ends with 99% of inquiries.

Looking for American Breeder - Natural Ears and with a Natural Tail!

Breeders near Florida who sell Dobies with natural ears

Search for Good Breeder allowing Natural Ears w/in 8hrs of Chicago

Looking for East Coast breeder who will sell with natural ears

Natural Litters

Breeders in Pacific Northwest that DON'T require cropping?
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 10:11 PM
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I can completely relate to what you're going through right now. We had to search quite a bit before we found a reputable breeder who allows for an uncropped ear. If you're willing to drive to Indiana, I have found a breeder who will allow you to leave the ears natural. She breeds pet quality animals, and does not show her dogs. However, she provides a 5 generation AKC pedigree for both the dam and sire. We met the puppies today and they were all playful, gorgeous, healthy red males. I had such a great experience with this breeder that we immediately reserved our pick of the litter. I encourage you to reach out to Lori, and discuss your situation with her in further detail. She is knowledgable with a strong passion for the breed.

http://www.puppyfind.com/view_listin...26page%25253D1
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by INCasey View Post
I can completely relate to what you're going through right now. We had to search quite a bit before we found a reputable breeder who allows for an uncropped ear. If you're willing to drive to Indiana, I have found a breeder who will allow you to leave the ears natural. She breeds pet quality animals, and does not show her dogs. However, she provides a 5 generation AKC pedigree for both the dam and sire. We met the puppies today and they were all playful, gorgeous, healthy red males. I had such a great experience with this breeder that we immediately reserved our pick of the litter. I encourage you to reach out to Lori, and discuss your situation with her in further detail. She is knowledgable with a strong passion for the breed.

Doberman Pinscher Puppy for Sale: Dobie Fml3-4
That breeder has been discussed here before and it doesn't meet the guidelines of what is considered reputable. Use the search function here and see for yourself.

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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 09:51 AM
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I understand how you feel, and know that the bond you have with each dog is different, but special. They are all their own dogs, and special in their own way, and I think you have a deep bond with each of them.

If you are looking for a well bred dog (and, personally, I think that a well bred puppy is the best choice for your situation), and you like natural ears, I would personally recommend you reach out to Kathy Davieds at Jesaran Doberans in Virginia. Yes, I know she's not near you, but if you really want the type of temperament you describe and you really want natural ears, she is the breeder to go to. She is one of the only ethical breeders who will leave ears natural, and I can tell you she breeds dogs with lovely temperaments and with great care for health and longevity. She bred my boy's sire, so I've known her for several years - we keep in touch about what Richter is doing. She is a wonderful breeder and it would be worth you taking a road trip for a pup from her.

Also, every litter has "pet" puppies - you having no desire to show your dog should have no bearing on getting a puppy.


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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 12:51 PM
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I'm honestly shocked to read this. I was aware that Lori had German Shepherds and Doberman pups for sale, but I didn't see anything about Newfoundlands or Rottweilers online or at her home.

I actually went so far as to drive to see the puppies before I reserved them to ensure that I wasn't supporting a backyard breeder. On site, there were two Dobermans, a male and a female, who I assumed were the mother and father of the puppies. And I didn't see any signs of anything disreputable. The puppies were clean, with no clinical signs of disease or parasites. They were all very playful and energetic. We played with them for about an hour and a half before I decided to reserve my pick of the litter. Everything looked completely up to snuff.

What good is the AKC if they give papers to breeders who "don't meet the guidelines for a reputable breeder?" And what more is a prospective pet owner supposed to do to ensure they aren't supporting unethical breeding practices? I have the expectation that an AKC dog should at least be of sound health and temperament, and satisfy the basics of the breed standard. Frankly, I'm disgusted. I have put an enormous amount of time and effort, not to mention money, into preparing the perfect home for my Doberman puppy, looking for the best vet and searching for what I believe to be the perfect breeder, and I still have to deal with this.
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 01:13 PM
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The akc will register anything as long as fees are paid and the breeder gives a valid registration number for the sire and dam. The akc is just a registry and does little to safeguard our breed. That is up to the parent club, the dpca www.dpca.org

I encourage you to do some reading on the public education sections on their webpage. Ethical reputable breeders title their dogs in some venue, do extensive health testing before breeding, breed at the appropriate age, socialize pups, have their ears cropped by an ear crop expert vet, and generally do not own both the sire and dam of their litters. They are making an effort to preserve and improve the breed for future generations instead of just breeding two dogs so they can sell puppies on craigslist, puppyfind, and kiji.

I am sorry to say but you supported a back yard breeder, unknowingly. If another doberman is in your future just do a little more homework before purchasing.
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 01:19 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you all for the responses, I've received a lot of info to go through here. Reading through some more of the cropped ear links really produces no definite answer one way or the other. I think many would agree that it boils down to personal preference and how much one believes in "the standard". My only argument is that it's unnecessary for a happy healthy dog, and just like with people, I don't believe in unnecessary surgeries. Unfortunately for me this preference is a huge factor in finding the dog I want, but I don't believe it's impossible.

No location is off the table. It's not like money is a non issue, but I've made a lot of sacrifices in the last year to change my financial situation for the better and I'm definitely ready to take this on. Obviously a California breeder who I could visit a few times before deciding would be ideal. I would consider a visit to meet the parents and the breeder and possibly ship the puppy when ready - not sure I could actually do that I may just need to make two trips.

Thanks for the warm welcome everyone. This forum is extremely pleasant. I've been lurking for a few weeks and it seems that everyone is very mature and respectful to one another. Even with repeated/common questions it seems like people are here to help.
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 03:20 PM
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One thing you have to keep in mind with "meeting the standard" is that ethical breeders are showing their dogs, and cropped ears are the standard in this country. It is VERY hard to show a dog to a championship with uncropped ears. Kathy Davieds has, but since titling a dog is one of the things ethical breeders to (to make sure they are continuing to breed dogs that meet stay within the standard), cropping ears is one of the things that is something that we do.

Another thing to keep in mind is that it's unlikely you would meet both parents of the dog - that can actually be a red flag (or at least a warning sign). Most of the time, the best match for a bitch is NOT the breeder's own male, so the dog who sired the litter may very well live across the country.


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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 04:43 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for that MeadowCat, that's something I initially had thought was important but what you say makes a lot of sense. Obviously I'm pretty new to all this so I appreciate the explanations you are providing.

One question - Since the ears are not a disqualifying factor, is the rest of a natural eared champion dog just so spectacular that the ears are overlooked? Is it simply a judges personal opinion of how important it is? It all seems rather arbitrary to an outsider like me. With what seems like at least 3 natural eared champions in the last few years, it's surprising that this is still a grey area. You would think as a group, the show circle would be forced to either accept or deny this flat out.

Edit - I started reading threads like this: New uncropped Champion and now I feel much more aware of how and why an uncropped dog can still be a champion.

Last edited by Zack_; 05-19-2017 at 05:00 PM.
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