help!!! Behavoir issues,at wits end here

SeaNemesis · 03-07-2008, 02:53 PM

We adopted a male doberman,red about 2 years ago. He was 13 months old and lived his entire life at that point in a kennel. He had never even been in a house or climbed stairs. We had experiences like with with a greyhound we adopted many years ago before there were any rescue groups for them. It was a challenge and she did a lot of destruction at first,but we prevailed and she grew into a great family member,but we lost her after a long fight with osteosarcoma and a leg amputation. Her death was so hard that it took us 6 years before we got another dog,although I did take in rescue dogs that needed a little extra help with training I have been working with dogs since a little girl and have always had a way with them and also I have attended 2 different schools for this. We got mako,a red female as a puppy and she has been with us for 6 years.She is wonderful and is trained VERY well......
Almost 2 years ago we heard about Panzer and purchased him. It was very difficult at first because of his many issues,but with a great deal of time,love and training he has come a long way,BUT............... Where do I start,we do love him and he has such personality and he is very animated,he is loving and proudly displays all of his MANY "tricks" with a great deal of pride. I use voice and finger/hand commands. I use a guttural "ehhhhhhhhhh" for no because it does not sound like any other word in english language and my dogs and kids too respond quickly to that.... ACCCCK, here it comes..... He is naughty,when I say naughty,I mean very very much so. He needs supervision 24/7,if you walk away even briefly he will get into any kind of nono activity there is.We allow no pets on the furniture,except my bed at first and that was not often and they always had to ask permission,but that had to stop a while back.
OK I am letting it all out hold on............
Panzer will get onto any couch or recliner in any of the living rooms as soon as you leave the room. We must ALWAYS keep items on them,heavy or he will pull them off.We have purchased many dog beds,but he eats them and rips them apart,even Mako's beds. If there is any food items he can get he will even open containers and boxes. He even knows now how to open cabinets. He does this ONLY when you leave. We keep food items now out of reach,but I also have kids,so sometimes they may walk away briefly and he will snatch it. On the counter too.When we put him in the yard he will dig and bark like mad non-stop (I will discuss my measures and discipline in a bit). In the house he will dig in the carpet,he has ruined our den's wall to wall from digging.If we try to kennel him or put him in the laundry room which is big, he goes nuts and barks,whines non-stop and urinates.He will still occassionaly urinate in the house even in front of you,even after he has been out,although uncommon it still is frustrating.If we go away and bring him with us,he is so miserable that he will whine constantly even if he is with us.If he sees a trash can,even if it has no food in it, he will get into it and tear it apart. Bedrooms,bathrooms and even shopping bags. He will search any room in the house for food and steals it if no one is around. I feed my dogs raw and high quality kibble. Twice he broke into food containers and ate until his belly swelled up,once here and once at my in-laws. His belly swelled up so that he looked preggo and it is not cheap going to the vet on Christmas day.
He knows right from wrong and when he does things he will slink. I have been so desperate that I even used the spray training collar and even (cringe) the electrical one and used it when we caught him. However, he does NONE of this now if we are around.It is getting much worse. I can't let him out for long by himself or he barks,digs (VERY badly at that,under house,stairs,fence, etc) In the house he digs in the carpet or will find something to get into to. We have purchased many toys and even bones for him. We cannot take him anywhere and this is such a hardship now.We cannot kennel or contain him.
If he is caught doing something wrong he is yelled at and gets the "EHHHH" which he hates and we all ignore him for a bit. Our female has none of this. I have taken in many rescues that have needed extra help with behavior and I done VERY well. I have NEVER seen anything like this. I love him and so do my kids and especially my husband because this is "his" dog. The first few weeks I interacted with him just for training so he bonded with my husband who also feeds them because I am the one who trains them and we do this a few times a week. He walks very well on a leash and responds immediately to commands where ever he is at,even many feet away, he will respond there to commands. It is just when someone leaves the room or house.My husband is at the point because of how much he has cost us in damages, he even ate the porch and ruined a couch, that he says he wants to get rid of him,although I know he does not want to. WE NEED to be able to get out. I know though, that if we got rid of him, no one would be able to keep him. My neighbor who owns a grooming biz and is very active with shows even commented that if we could not keep him no one would and that if I could not train him,then who else could. I have even worked with fractious dogs!!! I have successfully trained many dogs,but I am soooooooo lost here. We can't give up on him,he is a precious life!!! He is FAMILY!!! I am in tears here........

DLS · 03-07-2008, 04:02 PM

Yikes. Sounds like he is a handfull. I got one of my pups back at around 18 months of age because his owners said they could not handle him. he had been crated and confined and was one HYPER active off the wall dog when I got him back. He had sepration anxiety problems and was very distructive too. Luckily I live on a piece of property way off the beaten path. I had to ignore the bad, praise the good behavior, and let him just go wild. He dug, he chewed, he ripped and tore stuff, he was not trustworthy in the house he would steal and eat everything within his reach. As I am lucky to be able to stay home 24-7, I could spend lots of time with this crazy wild guy. After six months of care, attention and lots of holes, fences chewed, etc. I could finally trust him for short periods loose in the house, he stopped digging holes, he slowed down on blanket ripping, LOL, but most of all he stopped panicking whenever we left him at home. I think because he was getting lots of free run exersice and had Pitty Pearl to play non-stop with and he was not feeling abandonded anymore. I am happy to say that he is in a great home now and he is a happy well adjusted boy.
I am sorry if none of this helps you, but I just wanted you to know that there is a chance that your boy could come around. I have heard that desensitizing training can be a big help with the problems you are experiencing. Wish I could be of more help.

GunnersMum · 03-07-2008, 04:11 PM

There is one product on the market that is supposed to help in these cases. I'm not sure of result statistics but you may want to try it. It's called D.A.P. (Dog Appeasing Pheromone) It comes as a type of plug in, that releases pheromones similar to what their mother released when they were puppies. It is available at some Animal Hospitals.

SeaNemesis · 03-07-2008, 04:22 PM

I have actually tried the pheromones and it did not help. He really does not have separation anxiety, he seems to love being left alone,except if he is contained. He gets a lot of exercise. I do stay at home,but it is still difficult. I also do not board my dogs, if we leave,they come too. I have on 2 occasions had to have my friend/neighbor who is the groomer watch them for a couple days.We keep saying he will outgrow this,but it has been going on 2 years and it is getting worse. We did of course get him neutered as he wasn't. His orig owner purchased him to show,but he also shows horses and apparently neglected to are for his ears after being cropped and poor dog had a second cropping, done short so I guess he could not show him and the dog lost his appeal to the previous owner.Thanks so much for replying and I am sorry to hear about your pup,but I guess I am glad I am not alone with this.

**sebsyd** · 03-07-2008, 04:39 PM

Just wanted to let you know that I read your post with interest and I feel for you. I don't have the knowledge to give any advice on this, but I hope others will post. Have you tried any "downers"? I hate to use these and never have, but I know people who do and they have quieted a fiesty dog. Good luck. I'll be interested to see what others post.

dobebug · 03-07-2008, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeaNemesis

We adopted a male doberman,red about 2 years ago. He was 13 months old and lived his entire life at that point in a kennel. He had never even been in a house or climbed stairs.

So he's now about three--and is the behavior and the related issues been getting worse or is this how he's been the entire time?

Quote:

Almost 2 years ago we heard about Panzer and purchased him. It was very difficult at first because of his many issues,but with a great deal of time,love and training he has come a long way,BUT...............He is naughty,when I say naughty,I mean very very much so. He needs supervision 24/7,if you walk away even briefly he will get into any kind of nono activity there is.

About needing supervision 24/7--I think the first thing I'd start doing is to go all the way back to puppy type training. I'd have Panzer on a leash at all times--he'd either be attached to me or to some other responsible adult (your husband in your case--if he can't be trusted then he needs to be either in your view at all times or confined.

Quote:

If there is any food items he can get he will even open containers and boxes. He even knows now how to open cabinets. He does this ONLY when you leave.[

Well, if you are keeping in him your view at all times or confined that takes care of getting on the furniture and getting into food--as far as cabinets go I can think of half dozens owner I've known over the years who have installed child proof devices on cabinets not for the kids but for the all to clever dogs. Digging in carpeting? If he's always with someone you can stop him before he does damage. Or confine him.

Quote:

If we try to kennel him or put him in the laundry room which is big, he goes nuts and barks,whines non-stop and urinates.He will still occassionaly urinate in the house even in front of you,even after he has been out,although uncommon it still is frustrating.

OK--confining him--this is the point at which I'd be tracking down a really top notch vet behaviorist. Ask your regular vet where to find one. Sometimes even a single appointment will enable you to iron out some of these problems. But one of the things I'd be looking into, and a behaviorist can advise you on (actually some clinics have vets who may not be board certified as behaviorist but have some skill at it) the possibility of drugs. There are drugs that are actually used specifically for behavior modification as opposed to simply trying to tranquilize the dog. I would want to try to alleviate what appears to be over the top separation anxiety so that he can be confined and left so that there isn't this continual upset over the destruction he creates.

Quote:

If we go away and bring him with us,he is so miserable that he will whine constantly even if he is with us.

How much experience has he had going with you? Is the vehicle large enough to put a crate in--he should be confined when in a vehicle and you can try things like first sitting in the car, then very short trips around the block and then longer trips--high value rewards for being quiet should, in time, enable you to modify that sort of behavior.

Quote:

He knows right from wrong and when he does things he will slink.

You sound to me like you've had more than plenty of experience in dog training to KNOW that this is not the case--dogs don't KNOW right from wrong. What he's responding to that makes him slink is his reading of your attitude--you are angry and he knows it. That's all he "knows".

Quote:

I have been so desperate that I even used the spray training collar and even (cringe) the electrical one and used it when we caught him. However, he does NONE of this now if we are around.It is getting much worse. I can't let him out for long by himself or he barks,digs (VERY badly at that,under house,stairs,fence, etc) In the house he digs in the carpet or will find something to get into to. We have purchased many toys and even bones for him. We cannot take him anywhere and this is such a hardship now.We cannot kennel or contain him.

I don't think the citronella spray collars are particularly effective. The electronic collars can be but I think you need more than this in your bag of tricks for this particular dog. The barking in the yard and the digging in the yard--well, I use a bark collar on one of my inveterate barkers but be forewarned that very barky dogs will bark through an electronic collar--you can do a combination of training and the bark collar that will make it effective though. Digging--digging is something I no longer try to control outside--in the one yard that wasn't a designated dog area I put in a 12 X 12 pen and if I wasn't in the yard with the dogs they went in that--they dug to their hearts content and I wasn't eternally upset because they were digging in places I didn't want them to dig. As far as the misbehavior in the house when you aren't with him--make sure he's not loose without you being there--if it means that he's on leash all the time so be it--the longer the behavior persists the worse it's getting evidently (I missed that the first time through your post when I was wonder if it was getting worse).

At this point I think you need to find a way to retrain the dog so that he can be crated (I would not simply confine him to a room--I think that just asks for further displays of bad behavior. I'd talk to my own vet first and discuss the possibility of drugs for behavior modification. And I'd ask about a behaviorist--specifically a vet behaviorists so that they can prescribe appropriate medication.

Good luck--I can tell you that although it won't be easy that dogs like this can be trained and retrained.

And by the way--are you still doing classes with him? I'd keep him in training for something I think--might be helpful and can't do any harm.

I just read your more recent post where you say that you don't think he has separation anxiety--I disagree on this--both his behavior when confined and the fact that he does not behave when loose and unattended suggests classic separation anxiety.

DLS · 03-07-2008, 04:56 PM

It does seem strange that he is getting worse instead of better. I can tell that you have tried everything, I commend you for not giving up on this boy. Maybe talk to your Vet about trying a mild sedative as sebsyd talked about. I have heard that some dogs have been prescribed anti-depressants for behavioral problems with great results.

SeaNemesis · 03-07-2008, 05:12 PM

Thank-you for your advice. We are going to try back to puppy training and we will seek a vet's help. As for knowing he had done wrong, I guess this is one of those situations that you would have to witness first hand. When he had done something wrong, we will not know it, yet... We will see him slink, then we would look. There are times of course that he has not done anything wrong and he will greet us enthusiastically.He travels in the car fine, he loves it. It is when we enter the home or in the camper where he will whine non-stop. I can hear him when he is downstairs. When we tried the crate, none of us was able to sleep. My husband is respiratory and works nights so I cannot crate him during the day.As far as training this is continuous as I believe it is beneficial for both the dog and parent (owner). He is great with this. It is just that he will take advantage of any opening he can, if one of the kids forgets to put something on the furniture he will be on it,but quickly jumps off if he even hears any one coming. He will not dig/scratch at the carpet when you are in the room (he does this too "puff" it up to lay down). He is an angel when you are there,but we find it very difficult to do this 24/7,but back to puppy training I guess although we have done this twice and he will return back to behaviors. It is just too much for us to have to do this on a permanent level. My house looks terrible with items on top of all the couch's and recliners.We really do not want a perpetual puppy for the rest of his life,although we cannot just get rid of him either,unless possibly, I don't know if we came across someone who could deal with this,but it would be like giving one of your kids away and how an you do that,but how you you deal with a puppy for the rest of his life too.

**ellenm** · 03-07-2008, 05:33 PM

I agree to start as if he is a pup. He HAS to eventually learn to be confined indoors in a very large crate, safe dog-proofed room, or outdoors in an outside run of some kind(where he could dig and dig and you would not care). The leash idea is great. He can't be leaping on furniture if is attached to one of you. Can you baby gate him out of that area? My guys are gated in my large kitchen and not in the family room with us all the time. I did have to buy childproof locks for my smartest girl...she opened cabinets and helped herself to lots of treats one day.

My rescue boy would destroy everything if I turned my back on him just to grab a load of laundry. I could not crate him him for over a year because he was panic stricken in the crate. I had to use a large bathroom with a window as a dogproofed room for him so I could confine him somewhere that was safe when we left home. ( As it was he tore the towel rack off the wall because he wanted to sleep on one of my towels!) He had classic separation anxiety but he did settle down and get over it....now he is a reliable house dog I can leave loose for hours.

I think you should get with a retraining program so you can leave him somewhere that is safe, and it sounds like he can't even have a bed or bedding to start with. Give him kongs filled with food or some yummy bone. Ignore the whines and be prepared for some destruction at first. It may take a good week or more on this...your husband may have to wear earplugs? Create a dog area of your yard where you don't care about digging.

I guess I'm saying pick your battles and start with one at a time. Good luck!

**KCFilley** · 03-07-2008, 05:42 PM

If I missed this, I'm sorry, but how much exercise does he get and how often? A tired non-bored dog is usually less destructive.