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Old 01-14-2013, 03:33 PM   #1 (permalink)
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How long do I have to look at my dogs rear end?

So we have an obnoxious 18 month old that needs some reminders of the multiple training that we have been through; puppy class, OB1 and 2, boot camp, leash walking, agility, tricks, dog to human aggression and some private lessons.

Any how, we are kind of starting over with a potential new trainer locally and some new techniques, based on both what I have read here and also suggested by this new trainer.

We started the "sitting on her" two days ago, and we have slowly started implementing the NILIF about five days ago. She seems to be responding to me a whole lot better, but getting frustrated with the puppy easier, but I'm sure that's my fault. Although we have implemented the NILIF with them both when it comes to most things, we haven't when it comes to all things, like the furniture. So I'm thinking it needs to be done all the way and by both dogs, even though the 8 month old boy isn't an issue?

Should we sit on him too? Also do we wake them up to sit on them? The girl has responded really well to the sitting even though its only been 4 times. Also, one of her issues is that she goes crazy barking through the house when school buses are driving down the street, she doesn't see them, she hears them. Same time twice a day, should that be when I "sit on her" or is that setting her up for failure?

The main thing is this. I know that presenting the butt is a high level of respect (yes I've read calming signals, it's when things are calm), and she has always done this. But since implementing these new changes she practically lives standing in front of me with her butt pointing at me. Do I ignore it, redirect it, how long will this go on? He is starting to do this also, but mainly he lays at my feet most of the time....she will even stand on him to back up to me, maybe we should put a back up alarm on her.

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Old 01-14-2013, 06:55 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Please pretty please define sitting on her.

And please find a new trainer. This seems to be abusive. If she's barking at the bus, you want to sit on her? Why not train her to be quiet? What is sitting on her supposed to telling her? If you know the buses come same time twice a day set up a desensitization plan.
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Old 01-14-2013, 06:59 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I'm very confused by this sitting on your dog advice. I've never heard of that before and can't imagine that it's an appropriate form of behavior modification.

Based on what you've written, my guess of her presenting her butt to you more often than ever is a result of her being completely confused by you and trying to appease you because of this sitting on her thing.
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Old 01-14-2013, 07:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Ohh noo I'm sorry. I thought the " sitting on the dog" was a well known training procedure by Margot Woods: http://sanityshome.blogspot.com/2010...-down.html?m=0

I'm not actually sitting on her, it's to teach her to be calming techniques.

Again I'm sorry, the technique and Margot Woods is well respected trainer, (she isn't the local trainer we are using, I wish she were).


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Old 01-14-2013, 08:41 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I have started to read about clicker training. A lot of it seems to make since to me but never though about training like that before. I have started it a little with mine and she seems to be responding to it really well after a few days. It is to get ready for a new dog when ever that comes. Control Unleashed talk about that some. It also talks about the why some of the other training does not work for some dogs.
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:06 PM   #6 (permalink)
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CalamitysHuckleberry - thanks for providel the training link.

Here is the photo link, from the above article.
- explains SOTD even more, very interest read: Wheres my sanity: Sit on the Dog pictorial
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:27 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Please pretty please define sitting on her.

And please find a new trainer. This seems to be abusive. If she's barking at the bus, you want to sit on her? Why not train her to be quiet? What is sitting on her supposed to telling her? If you know the buses come same time twice a day set up a desensitization plan.
As I guess you see I'm not really sitting on her, sorry I didn't make that clear.

We have tried the desensitizing to the buses, also to the pigeons that live in the rafters outside (will be fixing that this spring), to the planes that fly over (can't fix that), to the people that dare walk in front of our (her) house, to any loud auto/truck that drives down the street, car horns, car alarms (these include outside and on TV), and who knows what else, often times we have no clue she just runs thru the house barking at the sky. It's really quite sad...she has ran into things doing this and it's a state of intensity like no other and to snap her out of it is difficult. We have leashed her, caught her, hugged her, and anything else you can imagine short of drugs or an e-collar. We do often know right before its about to happen and can sometimes focus her out of it, if we can get to her in time. Tried keeping her leashed inside and she almost injured herself and me going into that "state".

Full disclosure - as some may not be aware from my first time I posted here. She is an albino from a BYB, so the odds are stacked against her. But we are and will do everything to right the wrong to the best of our ability.


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Old 01-14-2013, 11:29 PM   #8 (permalink)
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CalamitysHuckleberry - thanks for providel the training link.

Here is the photo link, from the above article.
- explains SOTD even more, very interest read: Wheres my sanity: Sit on the Dog pictorial
Thanks Beaumont, mmctaq turned me onto that. Very interesting indeed!


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Old 01-15-2013, 12:31 AM   #9 (permalink)
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What is the long term purpose of sitting on the dog guess I'm dense ?
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Old 01-15-2013, 01:11 AM   #10 (permalink)
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What is the long term purpose of sitting on the dog guess I'm dense ?
It's kind of like teaching a high energy dog to meditate. It lets them know that here will be calm.

"This exercise starts the leadership portion of dog training in a very non confrontational way. You are defining the space and activity that the dog will inhabit while you are engaged in other activities. It starts the process of showing the dog how to quiet themselves down during certain times of day, and employ self control in distracting situations. You are also getting the dog used to releasing the tension on the collar and relaxing instead of fighting against the collar. This becomes so important as the training lessons continue."



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Old 01-15-2013, 09:33 AM   #11 (permalink)
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WHEW and thanks. However, I stopped reading her blog when she started in on dominance. personally that's not the school of thought I use for training so I personally wouldn't use her. She may get results and others may have more info on this method. The dominance theory has been debunked many many many times.

I train by showing my dog what to do and rewarding that behavior. It's just a different school of though. I don't typically train by force or manipulation (even if gentle). I don't use my leash to talk to the dog since most of my life my dogs are not on leash.
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:14 PM   #12 (permalink)
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WHEW and thanks. However, I stopped reading her blog when she started in on dominance. personally that's not the school of thought I use for training so I personally wouldn't use her. She may get results and others may have more info on this method. The dominance theory has been debunked many many many times.

I train by showing my dog what to do and rewarding that behavior. It's just a different school of though. I don't typically train by force or manipulation (even if gentle). I don't use my leash to talk to the dog since most of my life my dogs are not on leash.
I'm not sure that having a dog lay down quietly beside you while on a leash is a sign of dominance any more than having a puppy tethered to you when house training, or the NILIF theory. I understand the debunking of the dominance theory and agree with that.

All my dogs have been trained with showing them what to do and rewarding that behavior, including the two I have now. For this particular one it isn't working with certain things. With the red one it takes about three times of showing him and he has it, he just doesn't get the time he deserves because of the problem child, but we are working on that.

I have found that learning many things in my life that there are always going to be many ways to do it, some good, some not so good. There are also going to be someone that could always do it better, just ask them<w>. They all have something to offer, even if its nothing more than learning what not to do (which to me is often times more invaluable). Being able to extrapolate the best information from sometimes many different sources does have its advantages. That's why I asked for advice here, however getting people to respond to my requests hasn't been very successful (unless I want to limit your guns, boy did that get responses, go figure). I respect the member's opinion tremendously, so please offer me some suggestions


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Old 01-15-2013, 03:23 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I used a leash to train my doberman and my collie puppy to settle next to me. I still use it for the collie occasionally. I am in a C.L.A.S.S. and "settling" is one of the exercises. My pup does fine but i had a GSD who wasn't an easy settle in new situations out and about so I took her out and about everywhere and had her just sit next to me. It worked for us. Good luck. Oh and I would not wake a dog to ask it to settle. Sleeping is settling in a way so wait until the dog is awake and then watch a TV show (1/2 hour one) and have dog settle next to you while you watch.
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:30 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I used a leash to train my doberman and my collie puppy to settle next to me. I still use it for the collie occasionally. I am in a C.L.A.S.S. and "settling" is one of the exercises. My pup does fine but i had a GSD who wasn't an easy settle in new situations out and about so I took her out and about everywhere and had her just sit next to me. It worked for us. Good luck. Oh and I would not wake a dog to ask it to settle. Sleeping is settling in a way so wait until the dog is awake and then watch a TV show (1/2 hour one) and have dog settle next to you while you watch.
Thanks Lori!


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Old 01-15-2013, 03:30 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Sorry if I wasn't clear. I often don't communicate well To me, I am turned off by this trainer's lack of understanding of dog behavior by using the term dominance. I could be wrong; wouldn't be the first time I could teach most dogs to go lie (lay?) on a mat and relax without a leash or tying them up. Tethering a puppy is so you know where they are (in my mind) more than anything else. It's management, not training. The leash is used to manage where the dog is. This lady/person is using the leash to talk to the dog and train the dog. I don't like how she suggests there is always a bit of tension. That part doesn't make sense and I might be misunderstanding. But wouldn't that be teaching the dog tension is normal?

For certain things like desensitizing, you have to be far enough away our dog isn't reacting to the sound of the buses. otherwise it become flooding which is very different.
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:30 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CalamitysHuckleberry View Post
Ohh noo I'm sorry. I thought the " sitting on the dog" was a well known training procedure by Margot Woods: Wheres my sanity: Sit on the Dog, aka: The long down

I'm not actually sitting on her, it's to teach her to be calming techniques.

Again I'm sorry, the technique and Margot Woods is well respected trainer, (she isn't the local trainer we are using, I wish she were).


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Thank you for the clarification! Reading your initial post without knowing what you meant, left me in shock Anyways, I'm kind of in the same mindset as Adara where any mention of the word "dominance" would turn me off of a trainer in a heartbeat, regardless of how "well known" they may be. With that being said, I understand that you feel like you are at a loss with the younger, more defiant pup and wish you all the best in working through the behavior problems.

Have you ever tried the Relaxation Protocol? Same idea essentially. Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol

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Old 01-15-2013, 03:50 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CalamitysHuckleberry View Post
Thanks Beaumont, mmctaq turned me onto that. Very interesting indeed!
^^^^ re: Article posted by Margot Woods, Sunday, January 03, 2010
Labels: dog training, dogs, service dog, trained dog

I personally liked what I read enough (last night) & it very much intrigued my interest, after researching the home page and the SOTD method was clear in my head, only after the second link to photos.
However - Your thread title, confused me, along with the initial post // I am so glad, this remarkable training info, didn't die on the grape vine...so to speak - thanks for sharing & your dober contribution.

Now that mmctaq has been referenced - to me it brings credibility.
- and I can say "she has forgotten, more than many will learn"...so I respect her views

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Originally Posted by Adara View Post
WHEW and thanks. However, I stopped reading her blog when she started in on dominance. personally that's not the school of thought I use for training so I personally wouldn't use her. She may get results and others may have more info on this method. The dominance theory has been debunked many many times.

I train by showing my dog what to do and rewarding that behavior. It's just a different school of though. I don't typically train by force or manipulation (even if gentle). I don't use my leash to talk to the dog since most of my life my dogs are not on leash.
^^^^ I tried "my" modified version of listed SOTD for 20 minute today, on our 4 month old Kelly, over the lunch hour...who can be somewhat of a wild girl, during kibble feeding time.
- Dad sitting on the computer chair // I corrected her with my voice pitch talk when needed plus my leash was completely relaxed, on pups neck
(I have no problem changing training methods, to suit the cause, had dobes since 1977)

When I released her, Kelly wasn't wolfing down kibble (any more)...so maybe 5 times slower intake...I WAS AMAZED !!
Rest of the afternoon, we were at my reno house project, and she was calmer, through the whole afternoon.
- enough that my carpenter thought the pup was maturing...LOL

Even Cesar Millan’s (Dog Whisperer) went into dominance...but I learned more from his soft techniques than any other dog training show, on TV.
- like to adapt the good, and abort the rest, I say // this POST, taught me another training TOOL (ThkU OP) !!
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Old 01-15-2013, 03:55 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I'm sorry I can't get over your first post...Sitting on her..I seriously started to laugh just thinking about my dog being bad and lowering my body to just sit on him haha! Oh gosh! Thank you for clearing that up I have never heard of this so ya! learn something new each day!

(I am not being rude or laughing at you at all so please do not take it that way!)
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Old 01-15-2013, 04:00 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RottenVonSpotten View Post
Thank you for the clarification! Reading your initial post without knowing what you meant, left me in shock Anyways, I'm kind of in the same mindset as Adara where any mention of the word "dominance" would turn me off of a trainer in a heartbeat, regardless of how "well known" they may be. With that being said, I understand that you feel like you are at a loss with the younger, more defiant pup and wish you all the best in working through the behavior problems.

Have you ever tried the Relaxation Protocol? Same idea essentially. Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol
This looks very interesting. I will give this a go. It's the 18 month old albino female that is the defiant one, not the 8 month old red male. That being said the one thing he won't do, which is what is really holding us back for his CGC is staying. Especially with a leash on and outside of the house. So this exercise will be great for both! Thanks a lot!

Ohh and trust me, I love my dogs, there won't be any laying on top of them to show them who is boss, or any other forms of intimidation.


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Old 01-15-2013, 04:03 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Oh and yes do it with your puppy. I started with my puppy from the beginning. I have a video of him at Starbucks when he was about 4 months old. I give puppies a chewy or bone and expect them to stay by me and settle. I engage, do a trick or two and then ask for a settle. I taught my doberman "place" but I haven't taught that to the pup. We start agility beginners Feb 9th, the pup and I, so I think we will be working on place then. Eli my doberman is a fantastic at relaxing next to me while we wait for our turn at training. He often falls asleep in fact LOL. My puppy sometimes whines, it's a new thing, nice ... not but he is a collie so I ignore or distract and it is fading. The younger we show puppies what we want the better off everyone is. I find having my dog settle when I go somewhere or at home when I am otherwise engaged (reading, watching tv) is an important behavior, very important, at least in my life. That means no wrestling either...I say this to pup. LOL LOL. I think we have to keep our sense of humor with the dogs and have lots of patience.

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Old 01-15-2013, 04:06 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Phoenix321 View Post
I'm sorry I can't get over your first post...Sitting on her..I seriously started to laugh just thinking about my dog being bad and lowering my body to just sit on him haha! Oh gosh! Thank you for clearing that up I have never heard of this so ya! learn something new each day!

(I am not being rude or laughing at you at all so please do not take it that way!)
That's okay Phoenix, I laughed all day at the thought of all the people that read that thinking I really meant that I sat on my dog for running thru the house barking. I can't re-read my original post without busting out laughing, well and embarrassment also.

"Should I wake my dogs up to sit on them?" That one really makes me guffaw!


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Old 01-15-2013, 04:14 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaumont67 View Post
^^^^ re: Article posted by Margot Woods, Sunday, January 03, 2010
Labels: dog training, dogs, service dog, trained dog

I personally liked what I read enough (last night) & it very much intrigued my interest, after researching the home page and the SOTD method was clear in my head, only after the second link to photos.
However - Your thread title, confused me, along with the initial post // I am so glad, this remarkable training info, didn't die on the grape vine...so to speak.
- thanks for sharing & your dober contribution

Now that mmctaq has been referenced - to me it brings credibility...we may not always agree 100% (from different dog experiences, shaping ones personal view) but I can say "she has forgotten, more than many will learn"...so I respect her wisdom.



^^^^ I tried "my" modified version of listed SOTD for 20 minute today, on our 4 month old Kelly, over the lunch hour...who can be somewhat of a wild girl, during kibble feeding time.
- Dad sitting on the computer chair // I corrected her with my voice pitch talk when needed plus my leash was completely relaxed, on pups neck
(I have no problem changing training methods, to suit the cause)

When I released her, Kelly wasn't wolfing down kibble (any more)...so maybe 5 times slower intake...I WAS AMAZED !!
Rest of the afternoon, we were at my reno house project, and she was calm, through the whole afternoon...enough that my carpenter thought the pup was maturing...LOL.

Even Cesar Millanís (Dog Whisperer) went into dominance...but I learned more from his soft techniques than any other dog training show, on TV.
- like to adapt the good, and abort the rest, I say // this POST, taught me another training TOOL (ThkU OP) !!
Thank you Beaumont!

Calamity has been way more attentive to me since doing the SOTD. I think after a few more days I may try it when the buses are roaring by, I just don't know yet (no one has really commented). I just don't want to go backwards with her, I think her mind is so conflicted as it is I want to get it right.

I saw the video of you and your Amy, that's an amazing connection!


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Old 01-15-2013, 04:24 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Sorry if I wasn't clear. I often don't communicate well To me, I am turned off by this trainer's lack of understanding of dog behavior by using the term dominance. I could be wrong; wouldn't be the first time I could teach most dogs to go lie (lay?) on a mat and relax without a leash or tying them up. Tethering a puppy is so you know where they are (in my mind) more than anything else. It's management, not training. The leash is used to manage where the dog is. This lady/person is using the leash to talk to the dog and train the dog. I don't like how she suggests there is always a bit of tension. That part doesn't make sense and I might be misunderstanding. But wouldn't that be teaching the dog tension is normal?

For certain things like desensitizing, you have to be far enough away our dog isn't reacting to the sound of the buses. otherwise it become flooding which is very different.
I think you have some very valid points. I understand the tension inquiry. Some of it might be a matter of interpretation, semantics, or just what is working and what didn't work. I know that with this dog, the usual hasn't worked, but that's what happens when you (I) not only got a dog from a BYB, but an albino one at that. She is amazingly smart at so many things, but I truly think she is wired differently, her intensity is so incredible that I wish I could find some way to re-direct it (open for suggestions).

Your last sentence, can you elaborate a little more please?


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Old 01-15-2013, 04:26 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lori Z View Post
Oh and yes do it with your puppy. I started with my puppy from the beginning. I have a video of him at Starbucks when he was about 4 months old. I give puppies a chewy or bone and expect them to stay by me and settle. I engage, do a trick or two and then ask for a settle. I taught my doberman "place" but I haven't taught that to the pup. We start agility beginners Feb 9th, the pup and I, so I think we will be working on place then. Eli my doberman is a fantastic at relaxing next to me while we wait for our turn at training. He often falls asleep in fact LOL. My puppy sometimes whines, it's a new thing, nice ... not but he is a collie so I ignore or distract and it is fading. The younger we show puppies what we want the better off everyone is. I find having my dog settle when I go somewhere or at home when I am otherwise engaged (reading, watching tv) is an important behavior, very important, at least in my life. That means no wrestling either...I say this to pup. LOL LOL. I think we have to keep our sense of humor with the dogs and have lots of patience.
I say this to the pup also! I'm thinking I get the same response you get, huh?


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Old 01-15-2013, 10:09 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I taught Kyrah to settle next to me but it wasnt with her teetered or me sitting on a leash. It was pretty much starting with down stays and making the time longer and longer. I worked up to 30 minutes downs. In the begining I was able to make sure she stayed. Then I worked to where I was sitting, then doing things, then getting up and down. We practiced this everyday or other day when she was younger. She settles very well most of the time and always has. Hmm...maybe this is why. Yes Lori, Kyrah did/does this same thing. She will just lie down and sprawl out when I am waiting for something.

Lately my dogs are a bit out of control when someone knocks on the door. Our system has been disrupted. Their spots (mats) in the living room are gone. We have not had a living room for 5 months. Funny my daughter and I were talking the other day about their stays and how as soon as the living room is done (if ever) we are going right back to practicing 30 minute downs on their spots!

I know what flooding is but really dont know how to explain it. Adara might explain it differently and better than me as far as desensitizing. But when Kyrah was people aggressive/fearful whatever you want to call it. I had to back her up and get her a certain distance back right to where she would not react and I could have her attention. Once they get to a certain point and she is reacting there is no way she can even comprehend I am talking to her.

I taught her to focus on me...look over there and look back at me. The book control unleashed has a game called "look at that." Great game. I taught with a clicker for her to look at something. Then gave the command "look" then up'd the game to; from a safe distance to look at what she would react to and have her look at me instead and get a treat. It worked for Kyrah but not over night...her people issues took probably a yr and a half to work through. Dexter is reactive to many things and he responded quicker with this method to his issues than Kyrah with hers. I have even had joggers tell me that is so cute; "he was looking at me then looked at you as to say what should I do." It takes time, practice and consistency. Where my daughter would ask why dont you avoid that...if I did I would be passing up a great training opportunity. Just try to make sure you are setting up for sucess. The time put in is well worth having a dog you can keep under that threashold of reaction to one that is out of control lunging, barking and/or growling.

Even having holes chewed in your jacket/coat pockets b/c you forget you have treats in them! But Cujo!! knows they are there! I am going to beat him!
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