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Old 01-16-2013, 02:10 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Here is more info on what desensitizing is.

Understanding Desensitization in Dog Training : Dog Obedience Training Blog

dog clicker training desensitization counter conditioning
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:45 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Not sure if the OP is still interested or not but if you have a link or info on "flooding" he did seem interested. I know what it is but really dont know how to explain it. So of course I would be interested in it also!
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:48 PM   #28 (permalink)
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How long do I have to look at my dogs rear end?

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Originally Posted by Herb2relax View Post
Not sure if the OP is still interested or not but if you have a link or info on "flooding" he did seem interested. I know what it is but really dont know how to explain it. So of course I would be interested in it also!
Still very interested and still very open for suggestions, and very appreciative. Sorry was dealing with some health issues.

Thanks Adara, any clue on desensitization for when the dog is hearing and reacting way before you hear it? For examples see below please.

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I taught Kyrah to settle next to me but it wasnt with her teetered or me sitting on a leash. It was pretty much starting with down stays and making the time longer and longer. I worked up to 30 minutes downs. In the begining I was able to make sure she stayed. Then I worked to where I was sitting, then doing things, then getting up and down. We practiced this everyday or other day when she was younger. She settles very well most of the time and always has. Hmm...maybe this is why. Yes Lori, Kyrah did/does this same thing. She will just lie down and sprawl out when I am waiting for something.

Lately my dogs are a bit out of control when someone knocks on the door. Our system has been disrupted. Their spots (mats) in the living room are gone. We have not had a living room for 5 months. Funny my daughter and I were talking the other day about their stays and how as soon as the living room is done (if ever) we are going right back to practicing 30 minute downs on their spots!

I know what flooding is but really dont know how to explain it. Adara might explain it differently and better than me as far as desensitizing. But when Kyrah was people aggressive/fearful whatever you want to call it. I had to back her up and get her a certain distance back right to where she would not react and I could have her attention. Once they get to a certain point and she is reacting there is no way she can even comprehend I am talking to her.

I taught her to focus on me...look over there and look back at me. The book control unleashed has a game called "look at that." Great game. I taught with a clicker for her to look at something. Then gave the command "look" then up'd the game to; from a safe distance to look at what she would react to and have her look at me instead and get a treat. It worked for Kyrah but not over night...her people issues took probably a yr and a half to work through. Dexter is reactive to many things and he responded quicker with this method to his issues than Kyrah with hers. I have even had joggers tell me that is so cute; "he was looking at me then looked at you as to say what should I do." It takes time, practice and consistency. Where my daughter would ask why dont you avoid that...if I did I would be passing up a great training opportunity. Just try to make sure you are setting up for sucess. The time put in is well worth having a dog you can keep under that threashold of reaction to one that is out of control lunging, barking and/or growling.

Even having holes chewed in your jacket/coat pockets b/c you forget you have treats in them! But Cujo!! knows they are there! I am going to beat him!
Yeah I didn't do this with Calamity when she was a puppy. The SO and I had rescues for the past 15 years or so. I hadn't had a puppy in 20+ years and she had never had one. I thought she was very high energy compared to the other puppies I had in the past, but I thought it was me just be older, plus I had just been diagnosed with diabetes so I was just slower. We had to put five dogs down in a year, so having something full of energy bouncing off the walls was a blast.....for us, not for her, we failed her.

She would sleep, no lie about 6-8 hours a day if that, and that was all at one time. not this play for 15 minutes and sleep for an hour. This was at 8-12 weeks old. She would go to daycare for eight hours, playing non stop and come home and continue. Now I know it's because we allowed it and didn't teach her how to calm, even though we were in training and would ask, they would just blow it off. I think they didn't believe she was as hyper as we were saying because hey everyone says that about their dog.

I'm telling you, especially after having the eight month old red Huckleberry...she was HYPER. Her mind was (and still is at times) in a constant state of flux. When she did sleep, boy does she sleep. She could be picked up and carried, she would have to be awakened to go out and be fed, and still does at 18 months. Yeah, we broke her.

She knows the "watch me", she looks at a bus and back at me and gets a treat, it can even be driving down the street, the same with people walking in front of the house, trains, barges, and even planes (we have a dog park by a fly zone) . She does great..on leash...I tell her to look at it then watch me, she looks at it, looks at me and gets her treat. She even looks at it, then me without being told waiting for her treat.

The "flooding" thing happens with her multiple times a day :::sigh::: and night. At home, off leash, blinds closed, TV on (loud). Most of the time we have no clue, she just jumps up barking at the sky. 8AM and 3PM it's the buses, she hears them from blocks away. It doesn't matter what room, or how loud other noise is. Sometimes I think it's my Mom and Dad haunting me for being gay and not having kids, lol. She can hear someone walking a dog three houses up, or hear the dog barking inside the house two streets away, in the winter with the TV blaring. She has barked at planes in the sky when all you can see is the contrail and maybe a flashing light. She may be a whack but she is our whack!

I think on Monday I will start the SOTD when the buses come, unless you more experienced people think this might not be a good idea. I have to say I have never tried putting her on a leash and treating her when she "hears" the bus only. I have done it when she sees and hears it. So maybe I should do that. Grrrr I wish they made ear plugs for dogs that I could gradually release them while treating, or find someway to use her hearing for good!


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Old 01-17-2013, 03:23 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Please send me a PM about what trainer you are using. I know many of the local trainers and there are a lot that I would NOT recommend for a dog with anxiety/reactivity issues. I also know several that I DO recommend and would be really helpful for you.
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:36 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
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....I think on Monday I will start the SOTD when the buses come, unless you more experienced people think this might not be a good idea. I have to say I have never tried putting her on a leash and treating her when she "hears" the bus only. I have done it when she sees and hears it. So maybe I should do that. Grrrr I wish they made ear plugs for dogs that I could gradually release them while treating, or find someway to use her hearing for good!


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Personally, I wouldn't do the SOTD when the buses come. It sounds like the buses cause her to go WAY over her threshold (What is a Threshold?) and once that happens, she isn't really learning anything. All she understands is that she is restrained and there is something out there that she wants to go after. I think this could potentially frustrate her more and actually make the SOTD less effective and worsen the behavior. Just my opinion though.

So she hears the buses and starts reacting at that point? I'm thinking that if you could purchase a CD of bus noises or record your own, you can work on desensitizing her to the noise and counter-condition her to a point where she starts to understand that bus noises = calm, relaxed behavior and lots of treats. You would start off playing the CD with a very low volume and gradually work up to it being as loud as the actual buses themselves.

I hope this isn't offensive, but she sounds like she might have some neurological problems and is overly sensitive to noises, etc. Have you ever thought about seeing a veterinary behaviorist? If you could find a medication that allowed her to be less neurotic, you could start desensitizing and counter-conditioning and once you start to see improvements, wean her off the medication. Find a Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist

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Old 01-17-2013, 03:47 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Just wanted to second RottenVonSpotten's suggestion of a behaviorist. If you aren't already a client of Dr. Duxbury at the U of M I highly recommend her.
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Old 01-17-2013, 03:50 PM   #32 (permalink)
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A couple of other things that have popped into my mind (shame on me for multiple posts, but oh well )...

Have you tried a Thundershirt?
How about the "Through a Dog's Ear" CD?
Any natural calming aids, like the DAP diffuser or Rescue Remedy?
Worked with a vet to try behavioral drugs, like Prozac?

Believe me, I feel your pain. Shanoa's very reactive in the house, too (but also out in the world, unfortunately).
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:00 PM   #33 (permalink)
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That this dog can do just fine when set up on leash and with treats when a bus or a person or an airplane goes by leads me to suspect that she does not necessarily have anything but a bad habit... she runs around barking because she wants to and she can, but mostly because she did the same yesterday and the day before. Not all unacceptable behavior is due to some sort of "issue"... a lot of unacceptable behavior is due to people never finding the proper way to communicate that it IS unacceptable.

I feel like I am channeling the late, great Captain Arthur Haggerty. His response to stuff like this used to make me crazy, until I got smarter and realized that it was perfect: "Don't let her do that!"

I think that this is a training issue, and I suspect that the trainer who has been consulted will do just fine... she is highly regarded by folks of whom I think highly.

I am not sure whether initiating the Sit on the Dog exercise to occur simultaniously with the kind of stimuli that makes the dog go crazy is potentially constructive or counter-productive at this point... I am thinking the former, but am still thinking... I have also asked elsewhere for input, and will come back with what I get.

I also think that the introduction of the concept of "flooding" in this discussion is misplaced. Flooding specifically refers to deliberate unrelenting exposure to stimuli which provokes irrational fear. I do not see how that has anything to do with any of this. If one wants to redefine flooding as any level of exposure to anything which causes any sort of reaction, I do not think that that would necessarily be a bad choice, here... it is a physiological fact of biology that a high level of arousal simply cannot be maintained forever, and that can be a useful situation... burn off the crazies until the calm emerges. Since much of behavior is self-perpetuating, this can be the first step in building a new habit of being calm.

For those of you whose response to the Sit on the Dog exercise is that that could be taught as a settle on a mat, or whatever... this is very specifically not that. The purpose is different, the result is different. The suggestion that Margot Woods lacks understanding of dog dog behavior made me laugh... yes, Colleen, you could be wrong LOL!
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:10 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:39 PM   #35 (permalink)
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How long do I have to look at my dogs rear end?

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Originally Posted by RottenVonSpotten View Post
Personally, I wouldn't do the SOTD when the buses come. It sounds like the buses cause her to go WAY over her threshold (What is a Threshold?) and once that happens, she isn't really learning anything. All she understands is that she is restrained and there is something out there that she wants to go after. I think this could potentially frustrate her more and actually make the SOTD less effective and worsen the behavior. Just my opinion though.

So she hears the buses and starts reacting at that point? I'm thinking that if you could purchase a CD of bus noises or record your own, you can work on desensitizing her to the noise and counter-condition her to a point where she starts to understand that bus noises = calm, relaxed behavior and lots of treats. You would start off playing the CD with a very low volume and gradually work up to it being as loud as the actual buses themselves.

I hope this isn't offensive, but she sounds like she might have some neurological problems and is overly sensitive to noises, etc. Have you ever thought about seeing a veterinary behaviorist? If you could find a medication that allowed her to be less neurotic, you could start desensitizing and counter-conditioning and once you start to see improvements, wean her off the medication. Find a Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist
I love this idea of the CD!


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Old 01-21-2013, 12:27 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Dr. Overall's Relaxation Protocol would be a great place to start. You can actually get mp3's to download so you can listen and follow the directions without having to read anything while you're doing it.

I think the best thing you could do for Calamity is to get a consult with Dr. Duxbury and a good local trainer.
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Old 01-21-2013, 07:49 PM   #37 (permalink)
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How long do I have to look at my dogs rear end?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mmctaq View Post
That this dog can do just fine when set up on leash and with treats when a bus or a person or an airplane goes by leads me to suspect that she does not necessarily have anything but a bad habit... she runs around barking because she wants to and she can, but mostly because she did the same yesterday and the day before. Not all unacceptable behavior is due to some sort of "issue"... a lot of unacceptable behavior is due to people never finding the proper way to communicate that it IS unacceptable.

I feel like I am channeling the late, great Captain Arthur Haggerty. His response to stuff like this used to make me crazy, until I got smarter and realized that it was perfect: "Don't let her do that!"

I think that this is a training issue, and I suspect that the trainer who has been consulted will do just fine... she is highly regarded by folks of whom I think highly.

I am not sure whether initiating the Sit on the Dog exercise to occur simultaniously with the kind of stimuli that makes the dog go crazy is potentially constructive or counter-productive at this point... I am thinking the former, but am still thinking... I have also asked elsewhere for input, and will come back with what I get.

I also think that the introduction of the concept of "flooding" in this discussion is misplaced. Flooding specifically refers to deliberate unrelenting exposure to stimuli which provokes irrational fear. I do not see how that has anything to do with any of this. If one wants to redefine flooding as any level of exposure to anything which causes any sort of reaction, I do not think that that would necessarily be a bad choice, here... it is a physiological fact of biology that a high level of arousal simply cannot be maintained forever, and that can be a useful situation... burn off the crazies until the calm emerges. Since much of behavior is self-perpetuating, this can be the first step in building a new habit of being calm.

For those of you whose response to the Sit on the Dog exercise is that that could be taught as a settle on a mat, or whatever... this is very specifically not that. The purpose is different, the result is different. The suggestion that Margot Woods lacks understanding of dog dog behavior made me laugh... yes, Colleen, you could be wrong LOL!
She has practiced it well!


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Old 01-21-2013, 07:49 PM   #38 (permalink)
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How long do I have to look at my dogs rear end?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeadowCat View Post
Dr. Overall's Relaxation Protocol would be a great place to start. You can actually get mp3's to download so you can listen and follow the directions without having to read anything while you're doing it.

I think the best thing you could do for Calamity is to get a consult with Dr. Duxbury and a good local trainer.
I will look it up, thanks!


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