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Old 01-08-2013, 05:22 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Need help

I have a 7m old dobe. My 6 year old daughter has helped in his training. Tonight she went to pet him while he had a bone. He growled at her. I therefore stepped in and reprimanded him and took the bone away. And since he was on the bed I went to grab his collar to get him off and he growled at me. I continued and pulled him to the floor and put him in a submissive hold. All the while I had my daughter pet him. Once I released him He was very submissive to both of us. Did I handle this correctly?


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Old 01-08-2013, 05:27 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I feel like letting your daughter pet him while he's being punished makes it seem like it's part of the punishment.

I'm sure more experienced people will be able to help more.


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Old 01-08-2013, 05:39 PM   #3 (permalink)
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imo Eqstrnathlete,
MOST PERFECT CORRECTION, given out ASAP - many people ask for help, months later, after the aggression has grown & exploded.
- your post & description of chain of events...very refreshing (as you get it & involving young daughter, was just timed perfect)
Rules / Boundaries / Expectations...are now dober comprehended....without challenge.

Plus 20 years ago, my nephew was giving his Sheltie a biscuit and the dog growled & went to grab the young boys hand.
- in all the fuss, the treat was in the dogs mouth (after landing on the floor)...YES, dog exercised very BAD manners
6 year old nephew (without thinking) was so mad at his dog...he grabed Tanner and ripped his mouth wide open (with his bare hands).
- sticking his hand right down into the dogs throat (deep)...to remove the biscuit, taken seconds earlier
- NEVER an aggression incident again / dog is now 11 y/o

My puppy is + 4 months old...we play Tug-of War daily and weekly she gets a Marrow bone...I often hold her bones, and she brings me them as well.
- all about establishing house rules / quite easy, once the ground work is set
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:42 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Look up "Nothing in Life is Free" on the net and use that training on your boy.

Either don't give him any more high value treats or put him in his crate where he can enjoy them without worrying about loosing them.
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:39 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I would have done most of that except having your daughter pet him while he was being corrected. You don't want him to associate attention from her together with being corrected, which is a negative experience for the dog.

Also, attention is a reward, especially gentle pats from a child. You should reward him for remaining calm and being gentle when she pets him. And absolutely, she's old enough to be involved with obedience training. Have him work for her by doing sits and downs, while she gives him treats. You can even have her feed him, and have her tell him to sit before he gets the food.

And just to be safe, since he growled at you when you wanted him off the bed, he should have his furniture privledges revoked. No getting on the bed or sofa unless he is invited up by you or your daughter, and he must get off immediately when asked. The bed and sofa are yours, not his, and he just might need a reminder of that.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:36 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I wouldn't handle it that way myself. I see no point in a "submissive hold" (assuming you mean alpha roll type things). I would rather train my dog to happiliy give something up than force them myself. I think of a growl as communication. obviously I prefer none but hey I'd rather they growl than not growl. I would find a good trainer and have them show you how to work on resource guarding and other issues. decide what kind of trainer you want to use. My Vizsla puppy is a slight resource guarder of high value objects. I have trained her with a clicker and rewards to happily give up rib bones full of meat. But I worked up to it.

For now, I would not let him on the bed nor give him anything he might growl about until you have a plan in place.
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:01 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adara View Post
I wouldn't handle it that way myself. I see no point in a "submissive hold" (assuming you mean alpha roll type things). I would rather train my dog to happiliy give something up than force them myself. I think of a growl as communication. obviously I prefer none but hey I'd rather they growl than not growl. I would find a good trainer and have them show you how to work on resource guarding and other issues. decide what kind of trainer you want to use. My Vizsla puppy is a slight resource guarder of high value objects. I have trained her with a clicker and rewards to happily give up rib bones full of meat. But I worked up to it.

For now, I would not let him on the bed nor give him anything he might growl about until you have a plan in place.
I would totally agree with this post myself. In my opinion, a dog which doesnt give any kind of warning is potentially dangerous. Not that resource guarding is ok, but I feel that the dog should growl when it is uncomfortable so you can work on making it comfortable.

Im sure everyone has their own opinions, but I dont believe in asserting dominance in that way, ie physically holding down a dog or pushing or grabbing collars and things; I think it is almost bullying behaviour and I much prefer to train using more positive methods. I also think they can be dangerous in some circumstances, and I certainly wouldnt want the dog to become fearful of being grabbed and rolled with a young child in the house.

Im not an expert in behaviour or dog training, but we have never had any kind of dominance issues so something must be working ok for me! I do believe in firm and fair leadership, but I dont see our relationship as a constant battle to remain dominant.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:11 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I agree with Adara. What you've taught him is that he's right to be worried when you approach and he has something extra good, because not only will you take it away, but he'll also be punished.

I highly recommend you both consult with a trainer (I recommend this as a starting place to find qualified trainers: Search for Professionals), and that you pick up a copy of Jean Donaldson's book, "Mine! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs," for a step-by-step guide on how to address the problem.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:07 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Yeah, you know. My post made it seem like I'm condoning alpha rolling or pinning the dog, and I'm not. I apologize if I was unclear about that. I was more concerned about having the child pet the dog while he was being corrected, because it's not a good idea for a dog to associate a child with a negative experience like that.

My own Doberman would bite anyone who tried it, and if I tried it, he might tolerate it. But it would wreck the trust he does have in me. For the record, I'm firmly in the camp that says alpha rolls and submissive holds are outdated and unnecessary.
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:34 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I would do the NILF dog training but do not go over board with it. Some one on DT a long time ago was making the poor dog work for every bite of food you do not want to go that far.Growling is a dog s warning system you would rather have it than not have it you might have just told the dog no put him outside or crated him. I would keep a line on him while in the house that way you are not reaching for the collar.You can just pick up the line remove the dog from the couch or bed. He would not be allowed on the bed or couch he will have to earn that privilege.Lots of obedience at least 10 minutes a day throw in some trick to keep him from getting bored. Good Luck
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