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Old 01-07-2013, 07:50 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Obedience and Attack Training

Hello, i am new to the forum and my wife and I are avid dog lovers, especially large breeds and/or intelligent breeds. I have owned boxers mainly other than my pit/hound mix and she is great. My wife and I however have two small children and i am in school. As of now i live in the country on a farm with two other dogs, my pit mix and another blue pit whom i took in because he had no home. We just got two doberman/australian shepherd mix puppies, however only the doberman characteristics are present. Anyhow it is inevitable that i will have to eventually move to a bigger city with a better university, and since we are poor i will more than likely be moving into a lower class neighborhood where crime will be more prevalent, and i would like for my wife to have the upmost protection. I obviously dont have money for training school so i will be doing all the training myself at my farm for it will be another year at least before i transfer. I have not the slightest clue as to where to start with my training. And please no replys suggesting guns or other forms of protection, i am specifically interested at where i need to start. Obviously i wouldnt jump straight into attack or guard commands, and even if i did how do you train a dog to do such a thing.
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:17 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:37 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Well, this can be extremely dangerous if not done correctly, and it's definitely NOT something that I can see anyone recommending you try yourself... first and foremost, you need to have the dogs temperement tested to see if they have the appropriate drives and willingness to do something like this. Your average dog simply doesn't have what it takes to truly become a working dog, or protection dog, and training them anyway can be very dangerous, and a liability. Couple that in with no experience, and it's a recipe for disaster.

I would contact a local club, and see if they can do an evaluation, they should be able to tell you whether or not your dog would be suited for any kind of training. From there, if your dog DOES seem to have it, they would be able to recommend what to do next. These kinds of dogs are selectively bred to have the propper working temperaments, and many that are not bred this way just don't have it, and will fold under pressure.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:08 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Person Protection dogs are a liability. Look up Schutzhundvillage training.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:13 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Thanks for your suggestion on this matter, it seems that most people are skeptical of this training if not done by a professional. Aside from protection training do you have any advice on regular training such as sit stay come heel, etc.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:19 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Also, please do some reading on littermate syndrome.

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Old 01-07-2013, 09:24 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I would start on basic obedience first and watch their behavior towards each other having a guard dog can trigger many negative effects if not done properly so doing your extensive homework on this one is key. Welcome to the forum. Best of luck with your boys


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Old 01-07-2013, 09:31 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amblin95 View Post
Thanks for your suggestion on this matter, it seems that most people are skeptical of this training if not done by a professional. Aside from protection training do you have any advice on regular training such as sit stay come heel, etc.
If you have a sincere desire to learn this type of training your best bet would be to find out where Schutzhund, PSA or French or Mondio Ring Clubs are and go to watch the training. The next step is to find out after you have been observing for a while is if you can learn helper work or possibly work your own dog. If it is a non-profit club it is not super expensive to attend training sessions. At times young guys can be welcomed if they are somewhat athletic to learn the helper work aspects of training. Like has been said it is doubtful whether your dog has the drives and temperament to do protection work but it might be worth looking into.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:44 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Obedience training can certainly be done non-professionally. Protection or attack training, I know I would certainly want somebody with years and years of experience training and titling dogs under their belt to help me out.

Obedience wise, I personally have been very happy with clicker (or marker) training, and have seen good results from my dog.

I agree with others, that it would be a good idea for you to read on littermate syndrome. Are they both males, or is one male and one female? If they're both males, same sex aggression is another topic I'd advise educating yourself on. It's good to not have bad surprises.

Also, do you have pictures of your dogs to share?
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:09 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amblin95 View Post
Thanks for your suggestion on this matter, it seems that most people are skeptical of this training if not done by a professional. Aside from protection training do you have any advice on regular training such as sit stay come heel, etc.
you have a family, right? Suppose your dog attacks your family, and hurts someone, or even worse...

People are not telling you to never do this kind of training, simply to not attempt to do it yourself, because firstly you don't know if the dog can handle that kind of training, and secondly because it's dangerous.
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:32 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatchworkRobot View Post
Also, please do some reading on littermate syndrome.

Welcome to the forums.
I just read the article on littermate syndrome, and i certainly hope that it is not a problem here. I have always gotton my dogs in pairs mainly because we have 40 acres and it can get lonely out here. I will definitly try to condition my dogs to be very loyal and protected so they dont shut us out. So far so good, i do have one puppy that is nervous and he will shake but i also understand that this could be do to poor breeding of the Northern Hemisphere Dobe, however i certainly didnt want to import one from Europe where they hold more to the tradional breeding that Karl produced. Thanks for your insight. Did you have any other suggestions that would help with this problem?
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:39 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerGunlock View Post
Obedience training can certainly be done non-professionally. Protection or attack training, I know I would certainly want somebody with years and years of experience training and titling dogs under their belt to help me out.

Obedience wise, I personally have been very happy with clicker (or marker) training, and have seen good results from my dog.

I agree with others, that it would be a good idea for you to read on littermate syndrome. Are they both males, or is one male and one female? If they're both males, same sex aggression is another topic I'd advise educating yourself on. It's good to not have bad surprises.

Also, do you have pictures of your dogs to share?
They are both males, but they have the other dogs that form this hiearchy here, which is my bitch Matilda, the oldest most experienced Pitt/Hound, and she is the most intelligent best dog i have ever owned. Then there is the one year old Keni whom is a Blue Staffordshire Terrior, and then of course my puppies trail along behind. Matilda holds dominance without question but does not enforce it unless provoked, while Keni can bully my pups with much yelping and neglible physical damage. Will they become more co-dependent with the older dogs holding the higher position? I do have pictures on my other computer which is in the shop, but will post them soon. Thanks for your response.
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Old 01-08-2013, 04:09 PM   #13 (permalink)
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You've got some huge red flags there. Three males, all still puppies for the time being. One of your males is bullying the other two, who are puppies and are tolerating it for the time being. The breeds involved- Dobermans and Staffordshire terriers- are known to commonly have individuals with either same sex or general dog aggression. With Dobes, same-sex aggression is so common that people who are knowledgable in the breed, with a very rare few exceptions for special cases, never recommend a male-male pair.

For now, your Dobe mixes are okay with the older dogs holding a higher position. Keep in mind that they are puppies, though. It's not uncommon for Dobermans to start challenging everything when they approach two years old, and male-male aggression is extremely common in this breed. I know you said your Dobes had some Aussie Shepherd in them, but Aussies are fairly tough themselves. Even if your puppies inherited mostly Dobe characteristics, you still have half of their genetic makeup coming from a tough, intelligent herding breed. So you get the toughness and intelligence from both sides of the line, and mostly Dobe characteristics mean you're getting all the baggage, like same-sex aggression, that comes with it.

Add in the fact that your Staffordshire is a year old himself, and already bullies your puppies? I'd be cautious. Very, very cautious. He will be hitting his adult years too, and that bullying may turn into something more as he matures into an adult. 1 year old is still a puppy, so you need to nip that behavior in the bud now. Your Staffie can no longer be allowed to bully your puppies.

You said he's causing negligible physical damage? That is not acceptable and your Dobe mix boys will protest that one day, probably landing one or all of your dogs in the vet's. Puppies are like little sponges, they absorb all kinds of lessons and you do not want your older dog causing confidence problems or aggression- which he will- if he continues to bully your puppies. Especially if you want to protection train them. They need to be well socialized and have the chance to build up confidence. An older dog who goes after them will do the opposite, and will ruin your puppies.

In addition, being bullied in that manner by an older dog can cause dog aggression problems or fear aggression problems in a young dog. My first Dobe was bullied and attacked by an older GSD while he was between 6-22 months old at home #2, and I had a lifetime of dog aggression as a result of it after I adopted him.

Also, as your dogs get older, never let them be together unsupervised. Bullying behavior between three males is a huge red flag. Sure, your pups will tolerate it now because they are babies, but once they grow up that can (and often does) change. They might behave in your presence, but if you're not there and one decides he's had enough and wants to challenge one of the other males, well. That will not end well.

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Old 08-14-2013, 09:09 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I got my dog ear cropped already and i am so happy having him in my life for doberman pincher is my dream kind of breed dog. Anyway, i am here again to ask for inputs or help as to where to take my puppy for obedience and or any other training he might need. I am looking for a cheaper one here in eastern part of Virginia, i have contacted one already and he was charging me ranging from $1500.00 to #2500.00. I am not trying to be cheap but i have no more budget for this , i have spent too much for my dog and his ear cropped and now his training. Any help will be highly appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:13 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I got my dog ear cropped already and i am so happy having him in my life for doberman pincher is my dream kind of breed dog. Anyway, i am here again to ask for inputs or help as to where to take my puppy for obedience and or any other training he might need. I am looking for a cheaper one here in eastern part of Virginia, i have contacted one already and he was charging me ranging from $1500.00 to #2500.00. I am not trying to be cheap but i have no more budget for this , i have spent too much for my dog and his ear cropped and now his training. Any help will be highly appreciated. Thanks.

If you are interested in 'protection work' or sport/schutzhund/advanced obedience and tracking training, try armin winkler at schutzhund village. He has a website.
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:32 PM   #16 (permalink)
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2500 for training? Is this a "board and train"? In my area basic OB classes are like $100 and that's pretty standard. Puppy classes should be WAY less than 1500-2500
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:32 PM   #17 (permalink)
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training

Quote:
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If you are interested in 'protection work' or sport/schutzhund/advanced obedience and tracking training, try armin winkler at schutzhund village. He has a website.
Thanks, but could you pls tell me where their address is at? because i live here in Norfolk Virginia. Anyone, knows a cheaper dog training from around here in eastern area of Virginia. Again, thank you for the input.
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:34 PM   #18 (permalink)
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That i need monicaei. Which place is that at? and thanks.
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I honestly have no words for this thread.... I dont even know where to start.

You have more than 2 males, you have litter mates you want to get into shutzhund you have young kids. I dont even know what to say really ....

Whos thread is this? Amblin or trentusa? Im so confused...

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Old 08-14-2013, 09:37 PM   #20 (permalink)
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What is the website Asmit?
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:38 PM   #21 (permalink)
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That i need monicaei. Which place is that at? and thanks.
Huh? Are you asking for a referal to a board and train? Where did the 2500 figure come from?
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:39 PM   #22 (permalink)
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What is the website Asmit?
Schutzhund Village
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:40 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I honestly have no words for this thread.... I dont even know where to start.

You have more than 2 males, you have litter mates you want to get into shutzhund you have young kids. I dont even know what to say really ....


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Old 08-14-2013, 09:41 PM   #24 (permalink)
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What is the website Asmit?
Use Google. Google Armin Winkler...
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:42 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I was starting to think i was going crazy


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