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Old 12-22-2012, 12:40 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Teaching "no"

Okay I don't use the word "no" with Ahren, don't get the wrong idea he gets in trouble and there are things he knows he cannot do- but we have different commands.

Messing with something he shouldn't-leave it
Bugging the crap out of me for no reason-go to your room
Trying to take something- not yours
Etc. Well when he does something wrong at the significant others house it turns into a big "he doesn't like me-he doesn't listen to me" fight because he just tries to tell him no and Ahren is like wtf does that mean? And yes I have tried the obvious of giving the other half Ahren 101 but it didn't work- so how did you teach your dog that no meant all of his other commands as well?


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Old 12-22-2012, 01:03 PM   #2 (permalink)
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No / Ack! is a cue, not a command.

Its a corrective reprimand that is generally followed immediately by redirection or a correcting command.

Dog starts to lift leg in house: NO! (correction) followed by taking the dog out (redirection)

Dog starts to chew on something: NO! (correction) followed by replacing with appropriate toy

Dog starts to steal sandwich off table: NO! (correction) followed by Leave it! (command)

Its a negative cue intended to tell the dog that what they are doing is NOT allowed, similar to how "Good boy/girl!" is a positive cue telling the dog they did well.

Commands tell the dog what you want them to do. Cues tell them what is appropriate. Combined, you teach the dog the definitive and variable rules of the house. No is a cue that says "STOP what you are doing and look to me for guidance. That is not permitted."

Food on the table: Never allowed. (NO! + Leave it)
Picking up a stick in the yard, sometimes allowed. (Leave it / drop it)

It seems elaborate, but if you're consistent with the usage, dogs DO get the difference. So if you want to teach "No!" just reserve it for when the dog starts to do something that is never going to be allowed, like jumping on people, chewing on shoes or cords, taking food from the table, getting into the trash, ect. Once you say NO! as soon as you have their attention, redirect or give a command.

Last edited by Adobe4two; 12-22-2012 at 01:07 PM..
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Old 12-22-2012, 01:56 PM   #3 (permalink)
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/\ Spot on!

No isn't even sufficient for young puppies, and probably wouldn't be easy to teach to an older dog. It isn't unpleasant enough, the dog has no idea what you're saying. Something like "ACK!" or the like - which sounds unpleasant and grabs attention - may be far more effective.
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:25 PM   #4 (permalink)
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He learned with eh! But now he really doesn't ever do anything wrong- he knows if its on the table it's not his- the worst he does is bug the crap out of me when I'm asleep if he wants me awake- and I just tell him to go to his room (the option of his actual room or he can go outside through the dog door in his room) the issue is that he has started staying at the bfs on occasion when I go to work and I he does something he wants to say no and Ahren looks at him like he is an idiot- I'm generally not there when this happens- the most recent event was he put him in a "stay" and walked off, well Ahren went to follow him and he told him no- stay. There is a difference between stay, wait and don't move. I wonder if they make communication counseling for bfs and puppy's-


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Old 12-22-2012, 02:25 PM   #5 (permalink)
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When I say NO!! to Skoll he completely ignores me

AAAHT! or NOT! gets his attention fast, he moves off of whatever he was doing (pestering the cat, getting in my trash, stealing food from the kitchen) like "whoa what was that guess that's bad". I'm slowly morphing "NOT!!" into "NO!!"... NOT -> NAAAHP -> NOOPE -> NO is what worked for me with Titan when he was about 18 months as well and had no concept of the word no. I've only had Skoll for a week, but he's already getting the idea that one of those noises when he's doing something means he's doing something I don't want him to.

For example we have been working on peaceful coexistence with the cat. My reflex is to say "NO" or "leave it!", but I forget that only works on dogs who know the command/cue, which he doesn't. After a few AAAAHTs, though, he's figured out that he can *sniff* the cat, but I'm going to have a problem with him if he *barks at* the cat. It helps that at the moment I don't think it's prey drive but play drive as when he barks at her he's in a playbow, so it's easier to snap him out of the "zone".
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:52 PM   #6 (permalink)
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NO is one of the most important commands you can teach. It covers a multitude of sins. It can also be a life saver.

Start by watching the puppy and when he goes to do something wrong/unacceptable say the word "no" and say it like you mean it. If he continues ahead with his behavior get up and move to him and repeat the word. If he ignores you take him by the collar and pull him away. You have to keep at this and not get lazy or the lesson is lost and he will have learned "no" means nothing.

I used a wagging finger with the command early on and all I have to do now is wiggle my index finger and that ends that. The dog must understand that "no" means "no".

If you're not consistent then don't waste the time trying to teach it.

There's a saying "keep it simple, stupid". It works.
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:59 PM   #7 (permalink)
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You are definitely on the right track. Your SO? Not so much. But you already know that.

Unfortunately, “no” is one of those all-purpose words that just pops out of your (general “your”) mouth and that’s really hard to train yourself out of using. If you think about it, it really doesn’t give the dog much information about what, exactly, it is that you do want, so I would spend no time on teaching it to Ahren.

Despite our best efforts over many, many years to stop using no with various dogs, it`s still our basic go-to word when we mean “stop whatever it is you’re doing right now.” But of course, once we’ve thought about it for a split second, we always pair it with another command, such as “leave it,” “off” or “sit.” At least the follow-up command gives Jack some information about what he’s supposed to do instead — and he’s now at an age where he generally does this.

We also use a quiet and clipped “no” when training — for information. We use this “no” after we’ve issued a command, such as “sit” or “heel,” and Jack has tried to comply but has put himself slightly out of position. He knows what this means and corrects himself immediately.

We never formally taught this “no.” Rather, it evolved as we trained.

If I were you, I would give up trying to discourage my SO from using "no" as an all-purpose command, especially if it`s causing arguments. Instead, I would focus on encouraging him to follow up with a command that tells Ahren what he wants him to do instead. That way, everyone wins — including Ahren.
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Old 12-22-2012, 06:29 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adobe4two View Post
No / Ack! is a cue, not a command.

Its a corrective reprimand that is generally followed immediately by redirection or a correcting command.

Dog starts to lift leg in house: NO! (correction) followed by taking the dog out (redirection)

Dog starts to chew on something: NO! (correction) followed by replacing with appropriate toy

Dog starts to steal sandwich off table: NO! (correction) followed by Leave it! (command)

Its a negative cue intended to tell the dog that what they are doing is NOT allowed, similar to how "Good boy/girl!" is a positive cue telling the dog they did well.

Commands tell the dog what you want them to do. Cues tell them what is appropriate. Combined, you teach the dog the definitive and variable rules of the house. No is a cue that says "STOP what you are doing and look to me for guidance. That is not permitted."

Food on the table: Never allowed. (NO! + Leave it)
Picking up a stick in the yard, sometimes allowed. (Leave it / drop it)

It seems elaborate, but if you're consistent with the usage, dogs DO get the difference. So if you want to teach "No!" just reserve it for when the dog starts to do something that is never going to be allowed, like jumping on people, chewing on shoes or cords, taking food from the table, getting into the trash, ect. Once you say NO! as soon as you have their attention, redirect or give a command.
I think this is the best description for the use of No that I have ever read/heard! I just read it to the other half as he is having issues listening to me in the proper way to train Bruce. I've been telling him exactly what your post says but it seems to not get through his head. He claims to understand now. Very well said!
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:49 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Lol yeah- they just need a training class for the significant others. I have now made him a list of basics for Ahren.

If he is touching something you don't want him to, instruct him to leave it.

If he barks and you don't want him to, instruct him quiet.

If he is pestering you to death, instruct him to go to his room or outside.

If he tries to take something that is not his, instruct him that's not yours.

If he tries anything inappropriate on walks, instruct him by me.

For all other issues instruct him with either "excuse you" or "do you like your nose" either of those will make him take 3 steps back and sit.

Maybe he will make use of the list- sadly I think Ahren will be easier to retrain than him lol! He does great on his tricks telling him shake, high five ect it's just the basic manners and Ahren testing his boundaries with him.


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Old 12-23-2012, 01:18 AM   #10 (permalink)
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"do you like your nose" either of those will make him take 3 steps back and sit.
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Old 12-26-2012, 01:14 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I taught no to Envy, first time I've actually taught a dog NO myself. I usually prefer to tell them what to do but she was getting into so much mischief I needed more help I never once corrected her though. I would get close to her say no, she'd stop, then I'd mark it (click treat) and resume what I was doing. Later rinse repeat, when I say no she stops what she is doing and runs to me for a reward. I will eventually fade the food reward to praise. No doesn't have to result in a correction. No is spoken in the same tone all my other commands are spoken.
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Old 12-26-2012, 02:13 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Wouldn't it be nice if teaching SO's and housemates was as easy as training dogs. /sigh

Elka knows, somehow, what different people want of her, even if they don't listen to me regarding cues. Of course, if I'm there, she looks to me anytime anybody cues her anyway. It's kind of funny. She's also surprised if a stranger says her name.
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Old 12-26-2012, 02:17 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Wouldn't it be nice if teaching SO's and housemates was as easy as training dogs. /sigh

Elka knows, somehow, what different people want of her, even if they don't listen to me regarding cues. Of course, if I'm there, she looks to me anytime anybody cues her anyway. It's kind of funny. She's also surprised if a stranger says her name.
That reminds me of last night when Hubby ketp saying Havoc get down havoc get down Havoc get down. Havoc had his paws on the counter. I said OFF. Off he got

My dogs are always surprised when someone knows their name. I tease them out loud. OMG did she know your name?? I almost always get a reaction when they call their name at the agility start line before we head out.
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Old 12-26-2012, 04:50 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
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That reminds me of last night when Hubby ketp saying Havoc get down havoc get down Havoc get down. Havoc had his paws on the counter. I said OFF. Off he got

My dogs are always surprised when someone knows their name. I tease them out loud. OMG did she know your name?? I almost always get a reaction when they call their name at the agility start line before we head out.

Hah, yeah, "Down" and "Off" are what I think only one friend remembers the distinction between

My grandfather kept telling Elka to "sit down" this weekend. She either walked away, or would look at me and lay down.
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Old 12-26-2012, 05:24 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
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That reminds me of last night when Hubby ketp saying Havoc get down havoc get down Havoc get down. Havoc had his paws on the counter. I said OFF. Off he got

My dogs are always surprised when someone knows their name. I tease them out loud. OMG did she know your name?? I almost always get a reaction when they call their name at the agility start line before we head out.
happened yesterday, same thing lol. I'm by my parents, and Abe is going on the counters, and I keep hearing "abe, get down" and I keep yelling back from the other room 'OFF, not DOWN!!"

Basically a dog will do what he's taught, and what they are allowed to get away with. If you have certain words you use, then teach your husband the words you use. Just like yesterday, when my mom is saying "Abe, sit... abe, sit... sit.... sit." and I have told her a bajillion times, just say it once. "it doesn't work if you say it once". So, I stood up, didn't say a word, use hand signals, and he did everything immediately. I then used verbal, and he did it immediately. Why did he do it for me, and not my parents? Because I didn't tell him to sit 100 times and not doing anything about it lol. "He won't sit without a treat". Really? I just got him to sit several times, instantly, with verbal and/or hand signals, I only fostered him for like 3 weeks, and I haven't seen him since Thanksgiving. lol

So, long story short, the dog will only do what he is taught, and saying and/or doing things he doesn't understand is pretty worthless.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:05 PM   #16 (permalink)
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My in-laws, while they are nice people, and like my dogs, aren't the most dog savvy people out there. Whenever they visit, or I visit them with a dog, they keep telling the dog to "get down", instead of "off". Oh, well.

I once read where someone (a dog trainer) used different words for each dog to stop what they were doing. For example, on was told "quit" another "stop", another "enough", etc. She said that "NO!" meant "Everyone with four feet is in trouble!".
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Old 12-27-2012, 01:35 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Family- ugh. If I could train my family NOT to give Ahren people food I would deserve an Emmy! He has severe food allergies, corn, wheat, dye, ect. So he only gets organic treats and such. Family comes down for dinner and wants to feed him all sorts of junk he doesn't get- and if you say something you get "well I managed to raise you and your still alive!" This weekend as usual they where ignoring me feeding him junk (I just go ahead and make vet appointments the day after any holiday) and mom gave him a plate of dressing... He ate it and went on about his business- about 30 minutes later he crawled in her lap and gave it all back to her. Ham, turkey, stuffing, gravy, all of it. I think she may have gotten the point about feeding him.


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Old 12-27-2012, 02:56 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adara View Post
That reminds me of last night when Hubby ketp saying Havoc get down havoc get down Havoc get down. Havoc had his paws on the counter. I said OFF. Off he got

My dogs are always surprised when someone knows their name. I tease them out loud. OMG did she know your name?? I almost always get a reaction when they call their name at the agility start line before we head out.
This happened to hubby and Jordan. Jordan was on the couch and so confused why hubby kept telling him down when he was already down. Hubby was so confused why Jordan just wouldn't listen. I tell him off and off he goes happily listening and feeling like such a good boy. Took my husband a minute to catch on.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:12 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGranger Ph.D View Post
Family- ugh. If I could train my family NOT to give Ahren people food I would deserve an Emmy! He has severe food allergies, corn, wheat, dye, ect. So he only gets organic treats and such. Family comes down for dinner and wants to feed him all sorts of junk he doesn't get- and if you say something you get "well I managed to raise you and your still alive!" This weekend as usual they where ignoring me feeding him junk (I just go ahead and make vet appointments the day after any holiday) and mom gave him a plate of dressing... He ate it and went on about his business- about 30 minutes later he crawled in her lap and gave it all back to her. Ham, turkey, stuffing, gravy, all of it. I think she may have gotten the point about feeding him.


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I believe that's what we in the business call "poetic justice."

We do feed Elka people food of certain types (she has no allergies that we're aware of), and at one point this holiday, my grandfather cautioned one of my cousins not to give Elka a cookie, and then said "Me, though, I'm an old man and don't know what's going on."

(he didn't give her a cookie either, he gave her carrots)
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