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Old 12-05-2012, 01:55 PM   #26 (permalink)
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The down fall of this method is your dog will begin to continually watch you.......
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:29 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDobermann View Post
Hi dobermann lovers, I'm happy to join your ranks.

I have just finished an watching an obedience training video for my doberman. The video showed me that my dog does not respect me, shown by her dominant disobedient behavior.

I have made a lot of progress with her in the past few days, teaching her the submissive down command. My concern is with correcting her when she does not listen. In the video the guy uses a chock collar and jerks them into the down position. He explains that it shows dominance over your dog, and it sure appears to work. His philosophy is that dogs are smart and you have to give them a reason to listen to you. The temporary discomfort the experience when disobedient is the reason they listen to you.

I am worried about the neck trauma this may cause my doberman. You guys have any alternatives for correcting the dog when they ignore your command?
I'd recommend you stop watching these videos immediately.
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Old 12-05-2012, 02:53 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Here's a great listing of qualified trainers to help you: Search for Professionals

If you like videos, check out Kikopup's training channel on youtube.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:05 PM   #29 (permalink)
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There are some trainers that are purely positive. This can actually be stressful to a dog. The biggest downside to purely positive training is that when stress or distractions are introduced it tends to result in an unreliable dog. I train in Schutzhund. What we see with purely positive trainers is the distractions in a trial can become just too much. Also when a helper is introduced you can forget about achieving any success. Balance is something to strive for.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:16 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I got a 4.5 year old fairly well trained dog in June & immediately took an OB course so that I could figure out how to tell her to do things.

I think the first thing I have to remember is consistancy. I practice sit, lie down, come, stay on a regular basis. I'm using treats right now to teach her 'turn' (in a circle) just for fun. I also need to do more work on 'sit' and 'lie down' from different angles (she'll do it if I'm in front of her using hand & voice, not so easily from beside me where she can't see the hand signal).

What I did was start with treats & then use them sometimes. Praise & attention at other times. I find treats easy when there is something new because she has amazing focus when food or toys are involved. I also say 'Good Girl' if she's quick & responsive about doing what I ask. I use "All Done" as my release words & do a shrug with hand movements at the same time. I will use her name (you need to use your dogs names, especially as you have two) if she's not quick enough & sometimes she'll give me the look, then obey. I know at that point that I need more - short - work on whatever it was.

When she's with my daughter, she gets less work & I find I have to do some reinforcement when I get her back. That's okay - everyone has expecations & she needs a reminder, not discipline or correction.

I'd suggest doing some work daily - whether it's sit, lie down, stay, heel work - or - find the kong with a small treat in it in the other room hide & seek work. The more you have fun, positive interaction with her, the better she should be for you on a regular basis.

I've read about people using NILF (nothing in life is free) training - here's a short blurb from the US Humane Society about it. Some of this may work for you.
Dog Training: Nothing in Life is Free : The Humane Society of the United States
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:32 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Hand signals are by far much easier for a dog to read than voice command. It is rare in our training however to be able to use and hand signals. In routines we can use it for the send out (vorose) and the blind search. That's it.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:59 PM   #32 (permalink)
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This is a pretty interesting blog post by a Schutzhund trainer that has switched to clicker training: Guest Post: My Crossover Training Event | The Crossover TrainerThe Crossover Trainer
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:36 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I have met Shade. Anyone who wants a dog in Schutzhund to get top points tends to have switched to marker training. This is because of the need for expression. However to have reliability you need to have the other side, corrections. What is interesting to me, is that my dog gives the very best expression after she works through conflict/stress and has been corrected and then gets positive reward. Dogs need things to be very black and white to achieve optimum results.

I look for advice from people who have achieved the very top results in the sport. Think Bundeseiger and WUSV podium finishers.
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Old 12-06-2012, 12:59 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I use a ATT sound to let my dogs know they are not doing what I want them too. You use treats slowly phase out the treats replace with praise. You repeat repeat train for about 10 minutes in the am & pm use sit & down though out the day also throw a few tricks in so obedience will not be boring. Keep on a leash or long line until the dog throughly knows the command, you can work on off leash commands like at a tennis court when not in use they are usually gated.Do not get in a hurry it takes time to train a dog remember they were not born speaking or knowing the language you use. If you google NILF dog training it trains the dog to pay attention just do not use it and go over board with it. A person said one time they made their dog work for every single piece of kibble it ate that is over board. Dog training you use allot of common sense,praise,if something does not feel right to you do not do it their are many ways to train. Example you can be mean and teach a dog to sit by pushing on its butt. Or you can be nice take a treat hold it over the dogs nose holding the treat between the dogs eyes going toward the ears and the butt automatically goes down you have taught sit. Read all you can in many different books on dog training take the dog to classes as many as you can training is a life time project. Good Luck.
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Old 12-09-2012, 02:50 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Thanks for all useful advice Rosamburg. Its clear your responses are well informed. You hit the nail on the head with the downfall of only using positive training. It does not work when distractions are involved.

Distractions are the common denominator of my dogs not responding. I am starting to find a good balance of correction and praise. Will post back in a few months to keep you all updated.

Cheers

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Old 12-09-2012, 07:27 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Speaking from a general trainer point of view, I've been riding and training horses for work and shows for at least 10 years, sometimes animals get distracted because you're training too long. It's important to realize training an animal is a lot like teaching a kid. You can only give them so much information at once before they need at least a mini-break to let that information sink in. So try paying attention to when your dog is getting distracted and what other signals they're sending you. When my horses are starting to get tired I've noticed they'll look in my direction but not directly at me more over my shoulder or around me. That's when I know I've worked them too long and it's time to stop.

Remember you want your animal to want to train so always leave them wanting more. Work in small spurts and always end on a high note. Try not to end a training session in failure. You want to end with praise so the energy is happy when the session ends so they want to keep receiving that praise.

Good luck with your pups!
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:00 PM   #37 (permalink)
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If your dobe is 4 y/o already and it does not respect you yet, IMO the training needs to restart at the very beginning, like it was a puppy first.
- because the true BOND with the desire to please, is missing

So 3 things I concentrate on with every dog of mine, every day early on...inside the house (controlled space):
a) fetch tennis ball - a command most dogs take to like a duck to water, so practice often, in a playful exercise
b) tug of war, dog always wins toy / can add a flirt pole toy, outside practice
c) soft bite, muzzle control - generates a measure of trust

^^^^ Now you become much fun, and looked up to, aa a leader of the pack...finally.
Inside work is done before the outside distractions, that can muddy up the waters, some...are introduced.

Treat training or play training becomes the positive motivation, while the latter is what I use most.
- your voice pitch / perfect timing / projected body language can also become your best friend & most powerfull tool...so understand how key these things are, while often overlooked by many inexperienced dog owner, with common training problems
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:40 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Why do you not want to use treats if you use a treat keep them on your person you might tell the dog sit then treat next time you say sit use praise keep the dog guessing about the treats. Their is no harm in using treats I have used treats for years even have a treat bag I wear.Incorporate tricks in with the obedience make training fun for both of you. I have also used NILF dog training which you can google.Good Luck
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:29 AM   #39 (permalink)
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I'm closing this as the OP is banned. Moving the few posts above to a new thread for "SherryK"

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