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Old 11-26-2012, 01:47 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Does bloodline rule 'almost' everything?

Hi ALL.
I just joined in. I live in Jakarta, Indonesia. Expecting your all kindness to share knowledge and experience.
I have been wondering for months of how much bloodline rules in geeting what we want out of our dobs.

My female dobbi is 17 months, purchased when it was 3months from a good local breeder (a retired judge in dobermann show). I named her Gamma (our 3rd dog). It has the what-so-called show bloodline in her.

background
2 months ago I brought Gamma for a Protection Training pre-test by a professional trainer. She didn't pass. He said that she is too soft and lack of drives. He said to me, for a protection training, I need to look for a dog from working bloodline (doesn't necessary it has high score for its anatomy). He said that Gamma is only good as a pet and entering the show ring if I want to.

I worked hard to properly socialize Gamma into our environment since day-1 w/ us. She is very fine with people and small kids. She welcomes any petting by others (small kids, adult). With other dogs, she only wants to play (but for cat always in hunting mode). Whenever the play getting rough, and the other dog (even much smaller from her) starts growling... she yields (avoiding) but not in fear.

She doesn't have a very high self confidance (fail to enter a big room full of barking dog) but is not fearfull (I could walk her in heel position in any new crowded places, as long as it is in open space).
But she does trembling in fear whenever I bring her to vet hospital (where she get hospitilized for 10 days post the cropping process, that time I was lack of experience and knowledge about ear cropping). Btw her ears now stand high (unfortunattely I fail to insert image in this post).

From reading a schutzhund book and some articles related to dog training, it becomes known to me of 3 categories: show bloodline, working bloodline and pet quality.

Protection training that manipulates drives in them: prey drive, defensive drive, fight drive and avoidance.

Also a typical quotes as: The training doesnt make the dog a protection dog. The breed doesnt necessarily make a protection dog. Selective breeding, within certain breeds that have the potential for protection, makes a protection dog.

my question:
1. Is there any thing I could do to increase Gamma's guardianship/protectionship, to stay hold its feet whenever challange comes to her way?
2. Is the show bloodline making her as a mellow big size black dog?
3. Is it true that for a dobbi, whenever he/she reaches 3yrs old, their natural protection comes up and becomes more vicious toward stranger? So it is better for me to be patient until Gamma's defensive drive comes before enrolling her for any basic protection training?

Appreciate any feed back and sharing experience/knowledge from you all.
rgds.patar
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Old 11-26-2012, 01:38 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I have a showline American bred Doberman and she is a nice confident dog. She probably would not be a Sch dog. But she isn't a "mellow big size black dog" either - in answer to your Question #2. I did send out outside once (dumb on my part) thinking a stranger was in my garage and she did what I would expect a Dobe to do. She went out in stealth mode, fast as lightening then WHAM barked and growled in his face. Then she saw hubby and melted into a ball of Dobe love. All that being said, I am not sure she'd be a Sch dog by any means. She has nice drive, nice confidence, decent 'guard the house' type drives so to speak. She's all American show/agility lines.

Genetics play a big role and so does training in most things. For protection I think a lot of it is genetics.
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Old 11-26-2012, 04:40 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Hi ALL.

my question:
1. Is there any thing I could do to increase Gamma's guardianship/protectionship, to stay hold its feet whenever challange comes to her way?
2. Is the show bloodline making her as a mellow big size black dog?
3. Is it true that for a dobbi, whenever he/she reaches 3yrs old, their natural protection comes up and becomes more vicious toward stranger? So it is better for me to be patient until Gamma's defensive drive comes before enrolling her for any basic protection training?

Appreciate any feed back and sharing experience/knowledge from you all.
rgds.patar
1..maybe, it is safe to work on prey drive. Where you run into trouble is when you start to expect defense or fight drive out of such a dog.
2. Not necessarily, though the breeding behind it probably greatly increases the chance that it is a docile/mellow/soft dog. You can get mellow dogs out of working lines too, but you have a much greater chance of getting the dog you would be looking for to be able to do protection work and to handle pressure.
3. No, generally you can start to see defense drive much earlier. We start a dog in protection work when they are mature enough 12-14 months of age. If you don't see it by then, it is unlikely to surface later. At least to any extent.

Overall it can be detrimental to a dog to put too much pressure on them to do something they are not cut out for.
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Old 11-26-2012, 11:52 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Now become clear to me the importance of long interview with the breeder before he agreed to give out his puppy. Not just to insure his puppy ends up in a good home BUT also for the buyer to get the dog of his dream/vision.

Following Rosamburg's advice, I would stop putting pressure to Gamma and myself to work her out for something she was not cut out for. I should learn to focus on what she is best for, i.e.: a faithful cycling & jogging companion.
Will learn to work on her prey drive abit to be more playful; the rest of the drives are for the expert.

As the protection trainer who rejected Gamma said to me that day, "A loved dobbi would give some level of protection to their family AND a domminant dobbi is not for everyone".

This forum is once again proven beneficial... thanks all
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:56 AM   #5 (permalink)
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As the protection trainer who rejected Gamma said to me that day, "A loved dobbi would give some level of protection to their family AND a domminant dobbi is not for everyone".
Great quote. I've heard how a Sch dobe can be loving and strong in prot at the same time, but I still find myself wondering if one can truly be both. All police dogs I've seen are not to be petted etc...but I guess thats when they are working, at home I suppose its different but just to what extent...
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Old 12-07-2012, 12:36 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Great quote. I've heard how a Sch dobe can be loving and strong in prot at the same time, but I still find myself wondering if one can truly be both. All police dogs I've seen are not to be petted etc...but I guess thats when they are working, at home I suppose its different but just to what extent...
Absolutely! Both of my titled Schutzhund dogs would crawl into the lap of family member in an instant. The first (Hara) was a Euro show line the second (Cairo) is a hardcore German working line bitch. Cairo is more suspicious of other people and I don't think would hesitate to bite if the situation called for it.
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Old 12-07-2012, 01:20 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Great quote. I've heard how a Sch dobe can be loving and strong in prot at the same time, but I still find myself wondering if one can truly be both. All police dogs I've seen are not to be petted etc...but I guess thats when they are working, at home I suppose its different but just to what extent...
I am sure that I am a little biased, but I find that a Doberman with a good mind, never has a problem with "turning in on and tunring it off" and discerning the difference between a threatening and a non-threatening situation. I have found that this is not always the case with German Shepherds and Belgian Malinois.

To the OP: Yes, you need a dog that comes from a background of working titles or at least ZTPs if you want to be successful. At least it will be much easier to train them in protection. They seem to have already "read the script" before you start. The dog does not necessarily have to be ugly to work though.
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