HELP, 6 month old female random manic/vicious biting - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums

Schatzi · 11-19-2012, 06:10 PM

I have a 6 month old Doberman female since she was 2 months old from a puppy store. From the start she had an alpha-like attitude to her. She always wanted to be in charge of us and didn't listen well to commands besides sit and stay. Regretfully, we didn't start training her untill she was 3 or 4 months. We tried general puppy training/interaction at Petsmart, which she did well at, and professional pinch collar training with a professional military dog trainer, which has worked to an extent. She is good on walks most of the time, but seemingly randomly she will look up at whoever is walking her and within a half second of that jump on them, mouth wide open, grab the leash with it's front legs, bite their leg or arm and rip them. We correct her by pushing her off, giving her a choke collar tug, and telling her no and she normally goes back to normal walking or will continue to try and attack us on and off again every 30seconds/minute or so or refrain from attacking her for the rest of the walk. And it happens any time throughout the walk. Before she pees/poos and after she pees/poos. And every time we give a choke collar tug, she gets angrier and angrier. We don't think it's teething still, because she has all her adult teeth and stopped trying to eat everything in the house she can get her mouth on.

She also has these manic/vicious "episodes" while in the house and backyard. My main concern is trying to figure out how to get her to no longer attack us like this. I can tell some of the times she gets annoyed because we are using the pinch on her and she doesn't like us repremanding her, but pinch so far has been the only way to even control her since she has now gotten to be 55lbs strong and harder to control. She behaves fairly well when she has been resting for a while and has just been relaxing around the house with maybe one or 2 people around and she behaves very well when she is given a beef bone to chew on and shows no viciousness when I take it away from her, but we have been trying to ween her off such treats because we're not sure this is training her to only behave when she's biting them. Also, she does chew on nylon bones, but loses interest very quickly, which is why I use beef bones.

We have also been trying to use muzzle, but obviously it's only a short term fix and no real solution to this problem because we don't want to muzzle her in the house 24hrs of the day and once the muzzle is off, it's same old manic dog. It doesn't curb the biting at all in muzzle off time. And when the muzzle is on, 50% of the time she tries ripping it off or rubbing it off on furniture or shaking it off. We try to minimize her from doing this and she hasn't gotten the muzzle off in the past couple weeks, but every time it goes on she keeps trying to get it off almost constantly to no obviously no success.

And when we put the choke collar or muzzle on her, she sees it and goes into attack mode. She will start angrily barking and go into defense mode, trying to nip and bite us as we get the muzzle/choke-collar/our-hands anywhere near her. At times, she has given us black and blues and even broken our skin/made us bleed from this type of biting and the "less predictable" above described manic/vicous biting.

Weirdly, sometimes it loves being pet all over, but sometimes it's extremely hand shy. Randomly, we never know what time is what, she will let us hug her and rub her all over. But sometimes, just touching her head or her back or her belly will bring a hard bite from her and sometimes a growl/cry.

Is this behaviour normal for Dobermans at this age?
Does it have the possibility of going away by itself?
Is there anything different I can do to stop this behavior?

Another side problem is that when we put it in it's cage when we have to eat dinner or go to sleep or go to work/school, it will bark for minutes on end and loud enough to be heard by passers by on the street. We are talking loud cry and deep bassy barks on average for 15-20minutes at a time, but up to 30mins+ on occassion. Sometimes it never barks, usually it's tired and falls immediately to sleep after that. And it hasn't gotten any better with the durations it will bark for. We don't let it out from this barking behavior, so we worry it might never stop either.

Do you think she will grow out of the barking or is there a way for us to minimize her barking?

One other thing is that she gets extremely jumpy and overexcited easily. She tries jumping on our bed, on counters, on tables, etc. And whenever I or any other family member gets home from work/school/out, she wags her whole body and jumps on them when they get into her jumping range. And whenever someone pets her on the street she jumps on them immediately unless I grip the choke collar really tight. Luckily none of our family is elderly or anyone she's met on the street is or this could be a huge problem. My parents are in their mid 50's, so this WILL be a huge problem if we don't fix it.

Any tips on that?

As for how she is with other dogs. Whenever she plays, she dominates or trys dominating every other dog she says, whether they be 10lbs, 50lbs, or 100lbs+. Most dogs she sees face to face are immediately intimidated by her before or after he dominant playing. She was dominated(not sexually) by 1 male black lab when she was 3months old, but that was it and she'd still fight that lab till she was exhausted, even though she'd constantly lose.

We've talked to multiple vets and trainers but they only tell us to continue the training they gave us, but it has been done with little to no success. There's times she's amazing and times she just "turns on a swith" so to speak and acts crazy for no reason conceivable. We want to correct this behavior and keep her, but at times she is very scary, strong, and threatening and will only get stronger so we are at somewhat of a middleground. We are also going to be spaying her soon, but she has not begun menstruation yet and some people said the surgery will help and others say it will have no change on her behavior. Any advice/insight is well appreciated thanks.

monicaei · 11-19-2012, 06:23 PM

A couple suggestions... Shes 6 months old and "nippy". This is why they are called "dober sharks". A muzzle is overkill, and not gonna fix anything. Try redirecting her onto an appropriate toy (squeaky, stuffy, tug, etc) and it will go away. They grow out of this phase.

Also, your "training methods" seem HARSH. She's a BABY. Work on building trust and a bond with her, rather than using force at this age. Games, engage her, basic obedience using TREATS and not force.

NINKOjIN · 11-19-2012, 08:34 PM

Your problem = you bought an unsocialized and unknown origin puppy of a working breed who was probably taken away from their mother and litter too early, from a pet store + you're using harsh training methods when she has no idea what you want from her. You are becoming the enemy and not someone she can trust.

I'll let the pros handle pointing you in the right direction with behavioral adjustment techniques and positive reinforcement methods of training, but please STOP with the muzzles, choke chains, and whatever else you are doing to the poor girl! It's clearly not working and she really needs guidance and bonding through mental stimulation and playful exercise.

EDIT: I also don't like the use of the words "it" referring to the dog, and "cage" referring to her kennel. I almost wonder if this is a troll post, I'm sorry, but I do?

avianantics · 11-19-2012, 09:08 PM

First, your puppy is a living, breathing being. Not an inanimate object and thus not an *it*.

Since you purchased your puppy from a pet store, you know nothing of her breeding, socialization, parents temperament, etc. You have your work cut out for you.

Your puppy sounds like a typical Dobe puppy at that age that has had no or improper training and doesn't get enough exercise.

Find a secure place where you can let her off leash and let her really run and play and burn off some energy.

Find yourself a good trainer, not some x-military yahoo that puts a prong collar on a puppy. I have no objection to prongs, even tho I have never used one. I do object to putting a prong on a puppy rather than training.

If you let us know where you are located maybe we can help you locate a trainer that can help you with training and behavior issues.

Welcome to DT and we would love to see photos of your Dober Girl.

leakaufman · 11-19-2012, 09:11 PM

Please stop using the muzzle! Also stop using a choke collar. Minimal use of
prong collar with corrections gently as needed and tons of socialization and one on one interaction will help. She is only 6 months old and as previously stated, going through dobershark stage. Sounds like she is playing when grabbing at leash. You want her to look forward to leash walking, not dread it. Patience with a ton of exercise and positive reinforcement are your best approach. Sounds like this girl wants to have fun and also wants attention.

Schatzi · 11-19-2012, 09:15 PM

I had someone else in my family finish writing what he felt was wrong with Schatzi and I idn't realize how misleading some of his wording may have been.

We are in no way being harsh or cruel to her. We try not using the pinch collar on her (we never use the choke collar because it chokes/hurts her I have even put the pinch collar on myself to make sure it doesn't hurt and is just annoying).

Also, we give her pleanty of exercise/play. She gets I would say around 2 hours of play most days if not more. The problem we're having is that, for another example, she'll be playing in the backyard where I'm playing fetch with her and all of a sudden she'll decide she would rather jump and bite me rather than go run around the yard any more. Obviously I only have a regular collar on her at those times and it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get her to stop hurting me so I have to run into my house grab a treat come back out and lure her inside. The only real reason we use the pinch is because she's basically impossible to control without it. Yes treats work sometimes, but other times she's completely uninterested with them. Also, I don't feel the pinch is necessarily cruel because, as stated before, I've put it on my own skin and don't find it to be that harmful if at all.

I don't want anyone getting the wrong impression here. We treat her very well with lots of love and rewards. She's part of the family, we had a Doberman that died in March at almost 16 years old. We've just never come accross a dog that would seemingly randomly decide it wanted to bite us. I think it's mostly a dominance issue with her.

If any of you could see the bruising she is causing to us you would understand why we're so frustrated. My hands and arms and feet are covered in them and I hate having to be stern with her but I've tried being only loving with her and it's literally caused me pain. I just want insight into any other people's experiences with Doberman's that have acted like this.

NINKOjIN · 11-19-2012, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schatzi

The problem we're having is that, for another example, she'll be playing in the backyard where I'm playing fetch with her and all of a sudden she'll decide she would rather jump and bite me rather than go run around the yard any more. Obviously I only have a regular collar on her at those times and it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get her to stop hurting me so I have to run into my house grab a treat come back out and lure her inside.

My 7 month old still does this from time to time. Good thing to do is have her wear a leash while playing outside with you. When she gets nippy, step on the leash so she can't jump at you, or latch it to something and walk away. Make her calm down and sit before you let her free again to continue play. (Also, only be using the flat buckle collar for this please!)

Also, break up your play time with lots of sits and downs. Make her earn everything you throw for her. Make her drop toys instead of trying to "take them from her" and she wont feel so inclined to jump and nip at you. Keep treats with you so you can easily "trade" her for objects while saying "drop it" if you have to.

These work for me. It's a long process when they've been practicing bad behavior for a while, but you should see improvement!

monicaei · 11-19-2012, 09:24 PM

Can someone, smarter on the interwebz than I am, link to a thread on bite inhibition and socialization periods?

Seems like it might explain some of the issues.

Also, seriously, stop strong arming the puppy. What you are describing is inappropriate play. Shes not trying to "hurt" you. This isnt an attack or aggression. Its a puppy problem. You aren't gonna make this better, but you could make it WAY worse. You are teaching a very impressionable baby puppy that you are her adversary, and causing her pain.

There is a time for physical corrections... This isn't it. IMHO

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schatzi

I had someone else in my family finish writing what he felt was wrong with Schatzi and I idn't realize how misleading some of his wording may have been.

We are in no way being harsh or cruel to her. We try not using the pinch collar on her (we never use the choke collar because it chokes/hurts her I have even put the pinch collar on myself to make sure it doesn't hurt and is just annoying).

Also, we give her pleanty of exercise/play. She gets I would say around 2 hours of play most days if not more. The problem we're having is that, for another example, she'll be playing in the backyard where I'm playing fetch with her and all of a sudden she'll decide she would rather jump and bite me rather than go run around the yard any more. Obviously I only have a regular collar on her at those times and it's nearly IMPOSSIBLE to get her to stop hurting me so I have to run into my house grab a treat come back out and lure her inside. The only real reason we use the pinch is because she's basically impossible to control without it. Yes treats work sometimes, but other times she's completely uninterested with them. Also, I don't feel the pinch is necessarily cruel because, as stated before, I've put it on my own skin and don't find it to be that harmful if at all.

I don't want anyone getting the wrong impression here. We treat her very well with lots of love and rewards. She's part of the family, we had a Doberman that died in March at almost 16 years old. We've just never come accross a dog that would seemingly randomly decide it wanted to bite us. I think it's mostly a dominance issue with her.

If any of you could see the bruising she is causing to us you would understand why we're so frustrated. My hands and arms and feet are covered in them and I hate having to be stern with her but I've tried being only loving with her and it's literally caused me pain. I just want insight into any other people's experiences with Doberman's that have acted like this.

Schatzi · 11-19-2012, 09:36 PM

*Just to make everything clear:

1-We started the pinch collar because that's the only way the military dog trainer trains dogs. And he said it doesn't hurt her, we've tried it on our necks and it doesn't hurt us. We had him train her for 2 months with the collar and it obeyed him and loved him every time he came in the house, even on the pinch collar.

2-What does everyone consider "nipping"? Because seriously when she bites us, it's not little snaps. It's hard clamps that cause black and blues, bleeding cuts, and has even gave me a charlie horse in my calf for 2 days. That's not playing from my understanding, playing is biting to let you know they are there, this feels vicious to me or do you all have multiple black and blues on your arms and legs and abdomen?

NINKOjIN · 11-19-2012, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schatzi

2-What does everyone consider "nipping"? Because seriously when she bites us, it's not little snaps. It's hard clamps that cause black and blues, bleeding cuts, and has even gave me a charlie horse in my calf for 2 days. That's not playing from my understanding, playing is biting to let you know they are there, this feels vicious to me or do you all have multiple black and blues on your arms and legs and abdomen?

I was so cut up, people thought I had a fight with a lawnmower... my arms and hands were scarred for months... I bled daily... bruises... and yes, it hurt like hell...

...but aggression would have snarling, baring teeth with lips curled, hackles raised, etc., while in a fixed position in-between the biting.

My scars have only just disappeared recently, to be honest. He only nips anymore when he's way over excited, and it's usually my fault.

You're going to have it tougher than me though, because she hasn't been having the bite inhibition training all along, so it'll probably be much harder of a bite than my boy does now.

Schatzi · 11-19-2012, 09:42 PM

Thank you, I've been trying leaving the leash on her while playing out side and she always trips all over it so I stopped but I'll start that up again and I'll try having her sit and stuff in between throws and hopefully that will help calm her down.

Schatzi · 11-19-2012, 09:46 PM

I on't resally understand what you mean by arming the puppy? You mean using the pinch? As stated before, all the trainers we have spoke to said she is a very good candidate for it and that there is nothing wrong using it. We'll try to ween her off of it once she stops randomly jumping at us bc she's literally just causing way to much damage and I get some people can handle having they're dog be that playful(?) with them but we really want to teach her she can't jump on us and the pinch was the only thing to even remotely get that across to her so far.

Schatzi · 11-19-2012, 09:53 PM

That's good to know that his rough play-biting has gone away mostly because that's what we're mostly worried about with her. She does show that agression of snarling at as sometimes, but I'm definitely going to keep an eye out for those traits more now to see if it appears to be play or agression.

Schatzi · 11-19-2012, 09:57 PM

Thanks to everyone that gave input, not so much to the people that just blatantly thought us to be viewing our dog as an object (it's pretty late over here on the east-coast, grammer misusage happens) and thinking we're hurting our dog. I'm an avid animal lover and would never do anything I think is hurting her. The trainer we used has gotten amazing reviews and we would never just pick some random ex military guy we think would do harm to our dog. He even is against the choke collar because he felt that was inhumane.

Once again, thanks for all the beneficial and inciteful input some people have given we're definitely going to try some of the suggestions given and will give updates as to how she's improving. (And hopefully some pictures

).

NINKOjIN · 11-19-2012, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schatzi

Thanks to everyone that gave input, not so much to the people that just blatantly thought us to be viewing our dog as an object (it's pretty late over here on the east-coast, grammer misusage happens) and thinking we're hurting our dog. I'm an avid animal lover and would never do anything I think is hurting her. The trainer we used has gotten amazing reviews and we would never just pick some random ex military guy we think would do harm to our dog. He even is against the choke collar because he felt that was inhumane.

Once again, thanks for all the beneficial and inciteful input some people have given we're definitely going to try some of the suggestions given and will give updates as to how she's improving. (And hopefully some pictures

).

And I do apologize for my initial remarks about being a "troll" in my first post, it's just that we get a lot of weirdos that show up here who literally just want to stir the pot, if you know what I mean.

I am glad you are trying some new methods and I hope things get much better for you, and I look forward to hearing your progress!

And yes, pictures would be wonderful!

Okie-dobie · 11-19-2012, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schatzi

I have a 6 month old Doberman female since she was 2 months old from a puppy store.
She has come from a puppy store...All I can say DO NOT EVER SUPPORT THIS AGAIN!!!
From the start she had an alpha-like attitude to her.
No she doesn't she is afraid, uncivilized, unsocialized, she is probably defensive..more than likely...

She always wanted to be in charge of us and didn't listen well to commands besides sit and stay.
Lets face it it's hard for puppies brought up in this situation.

Regretfully, we didn't start training her untill she was 3 or 4 months. We tried general puppy training/interaction at Petsmart, which she did well at, and professional pinch collar training with a professional military dog trainer, which has worked to an extent. She is good on walks most of the time, but seemingly randomly she will look up at whoever is walking her and within a half second of that jump on them, mouth wide open, grab the leash with it's front legs, bite their leg or arm and rip them. We correct her by pushing her off, giving her a choke collar tug, and telling her no and she normally goes back to normal walking or will continue to try and attack us on and off again every 30seconds/minute or so or refrain from attacking her for the rest of the walk. And it happens any time throughout the walk. Before she pees/poos and after she pees/poos. And every time we give a choke collar tug, she gets angrier and angrier. We don't think it's teething still, because she has all her adult teeth and stopped trying to eat everything in the house she can get her mouth on.

Honestly I would take this dog/puppy off the prong. Start some confidence building type exercises. Honestly petsmart training probably will build her confidence. Where are you located?

She also has these manic/vicious "episodes" while in the house and backyard. My main concern is trying to figure out how to get her to no longer attack us like this. I can tell some of the times she gets annoyed because we are using the pinch on her and she doesn't like us repremanding her, but pinch so far has been the only way to even control her since she has now gotten to be 55lbs strong and harder to control.
Seriously, you are going about training the WRONG way!!! Stop what you are doing...no more prong at this point !!! Stop going to this "militarily" type training guy!! This is a puppy!!

She behaves fairly well when she has been resting for a while and has just been relaxing around the house with maybe one or 2 people around and she behaves very well when she is given a beef bone to chew on and shows no viciousness when I take it away from her, but we have been trying to ween her off such treats because we're not sure this is training her to only behave when she's biting them. Also, she does chew on nylon bones, but loses interest very quickly, which is why I use beef bones.

Doberman puppies like lots of chewing, beef bones, raw bones, and also lots of exercise. Is this what she is getting? It's important to her well being, how she behaves around others. If she has spent a day locked up in a kennel with nothing to do...well I don't expect her to be a well behaved puppy. Explain her day with you???

We have also been trying to use muzzle, but obviously it's only a short term fix and no real solution to this problem because we don't want to muzzle her in the house 24hrs of the day and once the muzzle is off, it's same old manic dog. It doesn't curb the biting at all in muzzle off time. And when the muzzle is on, 50% of the time she tries ripping it off or rubbing it off on furniture or shaking it off. We try to minimize her from doing this and she hasn't gotten the muzzle off in the past couple weeks, but every time it goes on she keeps trying to get it off almost constantly to no obviously no success.

She shouldn't be muzzled!!! Get a crate, train her, exercise her, give her stuff to chew!!! My lord she should not have a muzzle on!!! Take some dog training classes!! Where are you located, I can recommend some classes so you are not having to muzzle your dog...this is crazy!

And when we put the choke collar or muzzle on her, she sees it and goes into attack mode. She will start angrily barking and go into defense mode, trying to nip and bite us as we get the muzzle/choke-collar/our-hands anywhere near her. At times, she has given us black and blues and even broken our skin/made us bleed from this type of biting and the "less predictable" above described manic/vicous biting.

I'd bite you to.

Weirdly, sometimes it loves being pet all over, but sometimes it's extremely hand shy. Randomly, we never know what time is what, she will let us hug her and rub her all over. But sometimes, just touching her head or her back or her belly will bring a hard bite from her and sometimes a growl/cry.

Is this behaviour normal for Dobermans at this age?
Does it have the possibility of going away by itself?
Is there anything different I can do to stop this behavior?

Another side problem is that when we put it in it's cage when we have to eat dinner or go to sleep or go to work/school, it will bark for minutes on end and loud enough to be heard by passers by on the street. We are talking loud cry and deep bassy barks on average for 15-20minutes at a time, but up to 30mins+ on occassion. Sometimes it never barks, usually it's tired and falls immediately to sleep after that. And it hasn't gotten any better with the durations it will bark for. We don't let it out from this barking behavior, so we worry it might never stop either.

Do you think she will grow out of the barking or is there a way for us to minimize her barking?

One other thing is that she gets extremely jumpy and overexcited easily. She tries jumping on our bed, on counters, on tables, etc. And whenever I or any other family member gets home from work/school/out, she wags her whole body and jumps on them when they get into her jumping range. And whenever someone pets her on the street she jumps on them immediately unless I grip the choke collar really tight. Luckily none of our family is elderly or anyone she's met on the street is or this could be a huge problem. My parents are in their mid 50's, so this WILL be a huge problem if we don't fix it.

Any tips on that?

As for how she is with other dogs. Whenever she plays, she dominates or trys dominating every other dog she says, whether they be 10lbs, 50lbs, or 100lbs+. Most dogs she sees face to face are immediately intimidated by her before or after he dominant playing. She was dominated(not sexually) by 1 male black lab when she was 3months old, but that was it and she'd still fight that lab till she was exhausted, even though she'd constantly lose.

We've talked to multiple vets and trainers but they only tell us to continue the training they gave us, but it has been done with little to no success. There's times she's amazing and times she just "turns on a swith" so to speak and acts crazy for no reason conceivable. We want to correct this behavior and keep her, but at times she is very scary, strong, and threatening and will only get stronger so we are at somewhat of a middleground. We are also going to be spaying her soon, but she has not begun menstruation yet and some people said the surgery will help and others say it will have no change on her behavior. Any advice/insight is well appreciated thanks.

Damn it all, why do people get dogs when they have nooo idea how to raise them??? READ UP!!! You have much to learn, there are a ton of threads to educate yourself. Please spend the time....for only for the sake of the well being of your puppy.

Doberman Rescue of Nevada · 11-19-2012, 11:39 PM

Howdy,
We rescue Dobermans with all levels of socialization and training as well as pedigree. So, please allow me to offer a few ideas based on a fair amount of practical experience.
* Be sure to maintain a calm demeanor, even when correcting or reprimanding. The dog needs to understand that you are incontrol and "protecting" the dog. Dobermans are naturally protective. If the owner does not convey a feeling of safety and calm control to the dog, it will decide it should be in charge of protection. It will not like it, get stressed and possibly become difficult to impossible to handle.
* With all due respect, lose the military trainer. They are trained to work with specific types of dogs that have been chosen for particular strong drives. They do not train puppies. My schutzhund (similar to military work) friends underline that most dogs are not cut out for this type of work and that they use ONLY positive reinforcement for a dog who is having fun. It does not sound like your Doberman is having fun but is instead being forced to behave in a manner for which it may not be suited.
* I believe that while Dobermans benefit from strenuous activity and play, the only manner in which a person should play with them is very gently. Te Doberman should learn to be gentle with people, that it only gets the reward of positive reinforcement and attention from being gentle, and that the only way to interact with people it meets is gently. You are describing a dog seemingly confused about the proper manners for meeting and interacting with friendly people.
* Being firm does not mean being agressive, or physically overbearing. It means being consistent, having a calm convincing manner, always rewarding positive behavior, never incentivising negative behavior and always being "there" to assure the Doberman it is your best friend, velcro magnet and smart companion to help support its self-confidence.

Professional trainers can and will work wonders for you, I'm sure. Please contact a source for group training ASAP for the sake of all involved.

Thanks. I hope this information is useful. Good luck.

workingk9s · 11-19-2012, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avianantics

first, your puppy is a living, breathing being. Not an inanimate object and thus not an *it*.

Since you purchased your puppy from a pet store, you know nothing of her breeding, socialization, parents temperament, etc. You have your work cut out for you.

Your puppy sounds like a typical dobe puppy at that age that has had no or improper training and doesn't get enough exercise.

Find a secure place where you can let her off leash and let her really run and play and burn off some energy.

Find yourself a good trainer, not some x-military yahoo that puts a prong collar on a puppy. I have no objection to prongs, even tho i have never used one. I do object to putting a prong on a puppy rather than training.

If you let us know where you are located maybe we can help you locate a trainer that can help you with training and behavior issues.

Welcome to dt and we would love to see photos of your dober girl.

this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by doberman rescue of nevada

howdy,
we rescue dobermans with all levels of socialization and training as well as pedigree. So, please allow me to offer a few ideas based on a fair amount of practical experience.
* be sure to maintain a calm demeanor, even when correcting or reprimanding. The dog needs to understand that you are incontrol and "protecting" the dog. Dobermans are naturally protective. If the owner does not convey a feeling of safety and calm control to the dog, it will decide it should be in charge of protection. It will not like it, get stressed and possibly become difficult to impossible to handle.
* with all due respect, lose the military trainer. They are trained to work with specific types of dogs that have been chosen for particular strong drives. They do not train puppies. My schutzhund (similar to military work) friends underline that most dogs are not cut out for this type of work and that they use only positive reinforcement for a dog who is having fun. It does not sound like your doberman is having fun but is instead being forced to behave in a manner for which it may not be suited.
* i believe that while dobermans benefit from strenuous activity and play, the only manner in which a person should play with them is very gently. Te doberman should learn to be gentle with people, that it only gets the reward of positive reinforcement and attention from being gentle, and that the only way to interact with people it meets is gently. You are describing a dog seemingly confused about the proper manners for meeting and interacting with friendly people.
* being firm does not mean being agressive, or physically overbearing. It means being consistent, having a calm convincing manner, always rewarding positive behavior, never incentivising negative behavior and always being "there" to assure the doberman it is your best friend, velcro magnet and smart companion to help support its self-confidence.

Professional trainers can and will work wonders for you, i'm sure. Please contact a source for group training asap for the sake of all involved.

Thanks. I hope this information is useful. Good luck.

and this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**Patches Mom** · 11-20-2012, 12:34 AM

I have not understood why some people humanize their puppies example: alpha-like attitude"
" She always wanted to be in charge of us and didn't listen well to commands besides sit and stay." She is a baby does not need a military type trainer have you read up on NILF dog training it is away to train as long as you do not go over board with it. If I was your puppy and you were using a pinch,choke & muzzle If you came near me I would bite you too. I 'm hoping if you stop this you can redeem yourself and get your puppies trust back if not I have a feeling later down the road you will be putting this dog to sleep due to your lack of knowing how to train a baby dog.Yes if you think I'm harsh if you stop and look at what all has been done to this baby dog you can see or you should be able to see things from her advantage point. You say she was from a Pet store most likely taken away too soon from her mother & siblings puppies learn bite inhibition from the mother and siblings. Your pup is treating you like another puppy to play with Doberman pups play rough. Look up Bite Inhibition,NILF dog training, have you heard you can do better with honey than vinegar same goes with puppies.Culture Clash is a good book to read, The Other End of the Leash another good book.I hope you can take another look to what all that has been done to your baby dog.See things in a new light.Good Luck with your baby.

Schatzi · 11-20-2012, 07:54 AM

I'm kind of dissapointed that most of these helpful tips are just criticizing and assuming stuff. Every trainer we've come across had no issues with the pinch and since it is the only way we have been able to tame her from jumping/biting us. I see what some of you are trying to say and we will try to see if we can keep her off the pinch except on her walks. We'll keep everyone updated but seriously please stop assuming stuff some of you guys. We have had a doberman before and she just didn't need any training like this she was a shy polite dobey and there was never a question as to how to figure out how to get her to stop hurting us. I simply wanted helpful advice, not judging. I wanted to know if this was normal and there's several of you that have shed light that this should be normL for some dogs and how to get her to behave a little better. Thanks to everyone that helped, and to the ones that just criticized please think before you start judging ask question first.

kpal4978 · 11-20-2012, 08:07 AM

I have a boy who is almost 5 months old... he has started to try to jump up and what is called "nip" at me when we are running. To him, it is a nip... he is 50lbs of doberbaby and he is EXCITED... but to my butt, thigh, finger, whatever else gets in the way, it feels like a bit more than nip.
I know they are big, but we have to remember they are just BABIES. When he plays with other pups, he plays rough like that, and he tries to do it with me too... it is NOT ok, and we have been addressing it.

There are plenty of threads on here about abused dobermoms... they are BIG and they are clunky, and you can expect some bruises along the way. I have already had stiches in my lip, broken glasses, and more bruises than I can count in the most ridiculous places, and my boy is just shy of 5 months.

She is a baby, and just needs to learn that this type of play is not ok with humans... give her time, and be consistant... she will get there.

ataro · 11-20-2012, 08:19 AM

Honestly, I don't know your situation so I can't judge. However, for something that has been a problem for a while, if I were you I would seek out a professional trainer. Go to more than one until you start to see results that you are happy with, and a training style that you feel comfortable implementing yourself. If it would make you feel better, go see a behaviourist and have your pup assessed. She might be a typical unruly puppy, she might not be. I would also get her checked at the vet to make sure she isn't acting up because of a health issue (I recommend getting a full blood panel).

A lot of people told me that it was typical of Dobes to be fear aggressive (absolute rubbish), and a pup I had before ended up having juvenile renal disease and tumours. Needless to say, that affected her behaviour and in the end I had to put her down.

For the record about normal pups though, I have never gotten cuts and bruises from my dog biting me. From jumping, yes, and I think at one point I fractured one of my toes because 30kg/65lb of her landed on it after failing to jump on the couch during one of her zoomies. But the last time my dog bit me was between 3-4 months old, unless it was by accident going after a toy. I should add that my current bitch is a very dominant "alpha" who will not back down from a fight and will challenge any other dominant dogs she meets, and so I have to vigilantly observe her interactions with other dogs.

monicaei · 11-20-2012, 08:25 AM

No one is judging the use of the prong / pinch IN GENERAL. They are saying this isn't the appropriate situation for it.

I have a couple prongs, I have used them with great success, I have no issues with their use. I just think this is the wrong tool for the job. Kinda like trying to hang a picture using a sledge hammer.

Schatzi · 11-20-2012, 08:32 AM

Thank you to the last 2 people to give advice. I'm happy to hear this can be normal for other people and we're not alone with her acting out and that there is hope that she can get better. We have brought her to the vet about 3 times by now and her blood tests came back nomral. We are looking into different trainers that have different approaches to see what works best for her. We have already taken to 3 different trainers that have helped somewhat but not 100% yet. I feel like us just sticking with what we've been told and the positive input we've received on her will help us and schatzi out a lot and that it will just take time.

kpal4978 · 11-20-2012, 08:32 AM

My dog has NEVER broken skin from biting, and his "nipping" was addressed... the injuries I speak of are from the rough play, headbutts, doberpunches, full run wipeouts, etc...

After reading what I wrote, it does appear a bit unclear, so I will correct myself. Puppies nip, you correct it, and thats the end of it. But to be alarmed by a puppy that age getting mouthy seems a little much. Any puppy, doberman or not.