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Old 11-20-2012, 09:41 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Schatzi View Post
Thank you to the last 2 people to give advice. I'm happy to hear this can be normal for other people and we're not alone with her acting out and that there is hope that she can get better. We have brought her to the vet about 3 times by now and her blood tests came back nomral. We are looking into different trainers that have different approaches to see what works best for her. We have already taken to 3 different trainers that have helped somewhat but not 100% yet. I feel like us just sticking with what we've been told and the positive input we've received on her will help us and schatzi out a lot and that it will just take time.
This could be part of the issue as well. At 6 months, that's three different training methods? You need consistency and TIME. Shes a baby, it gets better. Nothing good happens quickly, but you can undo good training in an instant. Training a dog is a lifelong thing, constantly working on and improving something or other.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:43 AM   #27 (permalink)
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You sound like you just have a crazy nippy puppy. You need to start with basic training/ground work
No free roaming/off leash time ever. She needs to learn you are in control at all times.
As far as the biting, sounds like she had little/no bite inhibition work (and coming from a pet store doesn't help in that area) you have your work cut out for you.
I would read everything you can on Leerburg.com
Leerburg Dog Training | Articles
And work on positive training. She gets nothing, no food, no attention, unless she is behaving.

I have no issues with prong collars I love prong collars, but everyone is getting defensive because there's no reason to be popping a puppy with the prong when they have no idea what you want. NEVER correct a dog, especially a puppy, unless they 100% know what they are supposed to do.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:08 AM   #28 (permalink)
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First and most importantly: It is really impossible to correctly assess these types of situations over the internet.

We cannot tell if this pup is rambunctious and doesn't understand the rules or truly is acting aggressively. YES, puppies even as young as 8 weeks can be aggressive. Aggression can have different causes (fear, protective, dominance, brain imbalance/abnormalities, pain, etc.). Often times, owners are inadvertently reinforcing the exact behaviors they are trying to correct.

I really don't have any issue with a prong collar and have seen plenty of out of control adolescent dogs where it really is a great tool to help train them the correct way to behave. One has to keep in mind that different dogs need different styles of training and different levels of correction. For some dogs you can just look at them sternly or change the tone of your voice, but some dogs won't even notice these things let alone perceive them as a correction. The same is true of what motivates dogs. Some dogs are very food motivated, some could care less. It's important to find what motivates the dog you are training. This is what a good trainer is able to do in a group setting -- first RECOGNIZE and then adjust lessons/techniques/rewards/corrections for EACH dog so that everyone is as successful as they can be. That is not something you learn from a short training course, but rather from years of working with dogs, studying dog body language, etc. Most of the best trainers I've worked with compete with their own dogs and have achieved advanced titles in obedience. A good trainer can make all the difference in the world...and on the same token a bad one can cause significant damage.

My recommendation would be a good trainer - maybe someone on here can recommend one in your area or to have a consult with a Veterinary Behaviorist for an evaluation.
Find a Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist ACVB

Good luck with your puppy and be sure that you are only rewarding her appropriate/desired behavior.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:23 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Multiple issues here- you have your hands full. Work on one thing at a time. Have had two dobes with none of these issues, but realized early on that they are very sensitive and balk at demands, getting more difficult to control when they are overwhelmed. My daughter recently acquired a 5 month old Vizsla with problems and he has come a long way with us. We had to 'baby' him even tho he was BITING us at intervals. He had no trust in us and we were trying to 'control' him due to his size. When we started talking softly and ASKING him to respond he started to come around, using treats. He's very motivated by food- which was an issue also- he would bite us if we came near his food. Long story short, we were as patient as possible and only gave him 'time outs' when he was absolutely CRAZY biting, jumping, humping. Over a few months he is a changed dog. We also took him out to RUN often and that took off the edge. There are lots of challenges when you're dealing with multiple issues, but just try and take one at a time and be successful- change the outcome. Use different methods for a while. If it doesn't work, try another. but the main thing is we started treating him like a puppy not a 50 lb. dog and he came around pretty fast. HE still has his moments but they are manageable now. If you need more in depth ideas I would be happy to tell you the steps we took. Good luck.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:40 AM   #30 (permalink)
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In response to Leerburg.com - I love leerburg.com, but always link a specific article when recommending that site. Otherwise it's pretty easy to come across the articles about "alpha rolling" a puppy. Or the article about how and when to use a dominant dog collar...

As stated, your dog was introduced to a prong way to early, in the complete wrong way. Your military trainer gave you ill advice. If you can only "control" her on walks with the prong, then keep it on her for walks. However do not use it for corrections, only to keep her from out muscling you and pulling you down the road. Prongs should be used only as a way to proof behavior, not force a behavior. What i mean by this is that a dog needs to 100% know a behavior before I proof it with a prong. The behavior is taught through 100's-1000's of repetitions of positive reinforcement.

Her biting issue is a simple one. She's a puppy, and a doberman puppy at that. It's well documented that this is normal for the breed. Consider yourself lucky that your last doberman didn't do it.

If she likes to bite, give her something to bite. Luckily my dog went after the leash instead of my leg, hence my screen-name. Carry a tug with you. At all times if need be... Redirect, redirect, and redirect again. Get ready to re-direct some more. Just when you think that she's over it, and "cured". Be prepared for her to lapse, and redirect some more. Do this until she is about 2-3 years of age (give or take) and you will be good to go!

In all seriousness it will not happen overnight night. Treats aren't going to work for this dog. She sounds like she needs physical play. As she learns that you control the play, you can work obedience into the mix. That tug will be your best friend. You may find that you even enjoy that behavior, and will one day miss it when she's older!
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:51 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Sorry on my phone and having issues quoting. That link goes to the puppy section of the training articles.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:52 AM   #32 (permalink)
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After reading some more posts in response to your questions about prong collars, I have concluded that maybe you should try a different approach. I had great success with the prong collar but my dog is high drive and she found the collar to be a positive experience. I agree with several other people in regards to her being really young. Dobermans are smart and energetic. Again, it sounds like she needs lots of love and interaction with only gentle corrections. As hard as that seems to you, the more aggressive tactics have not worked. I think a lot of what you are describing sounds like she is just being a typical 6 month old puppy. Also, she may have been taken from her litter mates too soon, a critical period in socialization that helps a puppy know when and if they are biting too hard or playing too rough. I hope you find a good trainer who can help you!
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:24 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank View Post
Sorry on my phone and having issues quoting. That link goes to the puppy section of the training articles.
No worries. My post was supposed to read "I always link..". Not "Always link...". Either way its a great site as long as you can avoid some of the poison that's in there. Some of the articles are bad news if the people reading them try to follow what they say.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:21 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I'm going to try "less aggressive" ways of correcting her even thought I believe the prong isn't being aggressive with her. We realize it's going to take a lot of time and patients and if any more problems occur we'll ask for more input and we'll update any improvements she has made. Also, if anyone has anymore input to give that would still be appreciated. Overall, I'm just happy to hear this can be normal and it should be fixable with time and patience and the proper guidance.
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:17 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Bronson went through a naughty nipping stage as a pup. He decided sleeve biting and running away was the most fun game in the world.
Yes it is VERY frustrating. I know how you feel lol.
He loved to run and jump at your arm, bite, and run off. So we found redirecting with a flirt pole worked the best for him. He would go crazy as soon as you pulled it out, and eventually had to learn that until you sit, and wait, you dont get to play.
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:22 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddobes View Post
First and most importantly: It is really impossible to correctly assess these types of situations over the internet.

We cannot tell if this pup is rambunctious and doesn't understand the rules or truly is acting aggressively. YES, puppies even as young as 8 weeks can be aggressive. Aggression can have different causes (fear, protective, dominance, brain imbalance/abnormalities, pain, etc.). Often times, owners are inadvertently reinforcing the exact behaviors they are trying to correct.

I really don't have any issue with a prong collar and have seen plenty of out of control adolescent dogs where it really is a great tool to help train them the correct way to behave. One has to keep in mind that different dogs need different styles of training and different levels of correction. For some dogs you can just look at them sternly or change the tone of your voice, but some dogs won't even notice these things let alone perceive them as a correction. The same is true of what motivates dogs. Some dogs are very food motivated, some could care less. It's important to find what motivates the dog you are training. This is what a good trainer is able to do in a group setting -- first RECOGNIZE and then adjust lessons/techniques/rewards/corrections for EACH dog so that everyone is as successful as they can be. That is not something you learn from a short training course, but rather from years of working with dogs, studying dog body language, etc. Most of the best trainers I've worked with compete with their own dogs and have achieved advanced titles in obedience. A good trainer can make all the difference in the world...and on the same token a bad one can cause significant damage.

My recommendation would be a good trainer - maybe someone on here can recommend one in your area or to have a consult with a Veterinary Behaviorist for an evaluation.
Find a Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist ACVB

Good luck with your puppy and be sure that you are only rewarding her appropriate/desired behavior.
This is great information ^^ and I am sorry I was a little harsh with you. I was having a rather bad night! However I do still feel that you should see another trainer with different methods.
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:52 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank View Post
Bronson went through a naughty nipping stage as a pup. He decided sleeve biting and running away was the most fun game in the world.
Yes it is VERY frustrating. I know how you feel lol.
He loved to run and jump at your arm, bite, and run off. So we found redirecting with a flirt pole worked the best for him. He would go crazy as soon as you pulled it out, and eventually had to learn that until you sit, and wait, you dont get to play.
Gosh yes! Flirt poles are AWESOME for pups with high drives!
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:41 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doberman Rescue of Nevada View Post
Howdy,
We rescue Dobermans with all levels of socialization and training as well as pedigree. So, please allow me to offer a few ideas based on a fair amount of practical experience.
* Be sure to maintain a calm demeanor, even when correcting or reprimanding. The dog needs to understand that you are incontrol and "protecting" the dog. Dobermans are naturally protective. If the owner does not convey a feeling of safety and calm control to the dog, it will decide it should be in charge of protection. It will not like it, get stressed and possibly become difficult to impossible to handle.
* With all due respect, lose the military trainer. They are trained to work with specific types of dogs that have been chosen for particular strong drives. They do not train puppies. My schutzhund (similar to military work) friends underline that most dogs are not cut out for this type of work and that they use ONLY positive reinforcement for a dog who is having fun. It does not sound like your Doberman is having fun but is instead being forced to behave in a manner for which it may not be suited.
* I believe that while Dobermans benefit from strenuous activity and play, the only manner in which a person should play with them is very gently. Te Doberman should learn to be gentle with people, that it only gets the reward of positive reinforcement and attention from being gentle, and that the only way to interact with people it meets is gently. You are describing a dog seemingly confused about the proper manners for meeting and interacting with friendly people.
* Being firm does not mean being agressive, or physically overbearing. It means being consistent, having a calm convincing manner, always rewarding positive behavior, never incentivising negative behavior and always being "there" to assure the Doberman it is your best friend, velcro magnet and smart companion to help support its self-confidence.

Professional trainers can and will work wonders for you, I'm sure. Please contact a source for group training ASAP for the sake of all involved.

Thanks. I hope this information is useful. Good luck.
Best post in thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monicaei View Post
No one is judging the use of the prong / pinch IN GENERAL. They are saying this isn't the appropriate situation for it.

I have a couple prongs, I have used them with great success, I have no issues with their use. I just think this is the wrong tool for the job. Kinda like trying to hang a picture using a sledge hammer.
Whaddayamean? I have used a sledgehammer to hang a painting it worked just fine, seriously I have.

This is correct puppy and prong is very wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BellasMom2012 View Post
Multiple issues here- you have your hands full. Work on one thing at a time. Have had two dobes with none of these issues, but realized early on that they are very sensitive and balk at demands, getting more difficult to control when they are overwhelmed. My daughter recently acquired a 5 month old Vizsla with problems and he has come a long way with us. We had to 'baby' him even tho he was BITING us at intervals. He had no trust in us and we were trying to 'control' him due to his size. When we started talking softly and ASKING him to respond he started to come around, using treats. He's very motivated by food- which was an issue also- he would bite us if we came near his food. Long story short, we were as patient as possible and only gave him 'time outs' when he was absolutely CRAZY biting, jumping, humping. Over a few months he is a changed dog. We also took him out to RUN often and that took off the edge. There are lots of challenges when you're dealing with multiple issues, but just try and take one at a time and be successful- change the outcome. Use different methods for a while. If it doesn't work, try another. but the main thing is we started treating him like a puppy not a 50 lb. dog and he came around pretty fast. HE still has his moments but they are manageable now. If you need more in depth ideas I would be happy to tell you the steps we took. Good luck.
More good advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by EatTheLeash View Post
In response to Leerburg.com - I love leerburg.com, but always link a specific article when recommending that site. Otherwise it's pretty easy to come across the articles about "alpha rolling" a puppy. Or the article about how and when to use a dominant dog collar...

As stated, your dog was introduced to a prong way to early, in the complete wrong way. Your military trainer gave you ill advice. If you can only "control" her on walks with the prong, then keep it on her for walks. However do not use it for corrections, only to keep her from out muscling you and pulling you down the road. Prongs should be used only as a way to proof behavior, not force a behavior. What i mean by this is that a dog needs to 100% know a behavior before I proof it with a prong. The behavior is taught through 100's-1000's of repetitions of positive reinforcement.

Her biting issue is a simple one. She's a puppy, and a doberman puppy at that. It's well documented that this is normal for the breed. Consider yourself lucky that your last doberman didn't do it.

If she likes to bite, give her something to bite. Luckily my dog went after the leash instead of my leg, hence my screen-name. Carry a tug with you. At all times if need be... Redirect, redirect, and redirect again. Get ready to re-direct some more. Just when you think that she's over it, and "cured". Be prepared for her to lapse, and redirect some more. Do this until she is about 2-3 years of age (give or take) and you will be good to go!

In all seriousness it will not happen overnight night. Treats aren't going to work for this dog. She sounds like she needs physical play. As she learns that you control the play, you can work obedience into the mix. That tug will be your best friend. You may find that you even enjoy that behavior, and will one day miss it when she's older!
Second best post in thread

A video of this behaviour would be very useful., can you do one and upload to youtube?
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:13 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schatzi View Post
I'm going to try "less aggressive" ways of correcting her even thought I believe the prong isn't being aggressive with her. We realize it's going to take a lot of time and patients and if any more problems occur we'll ask for more input and we'll update any improvements she has made. Also, if anyone has anymore input to give that would still be appreciated. Overall, I'm just happy to hear this can be normal and it should be fixable with time and patience and the proper guidance.
I don't feel so much that the prong is a "harsh" way of correcting her in the sense that you are physically hurting her. For me, it's more the fact that it seems she can't control, or doesn't understand that her actions are wrong. I use prongs and corrections. What I can't stress enough is that a dog needs to know why they are being corrected. At 6 months, with her type/level of training she isn't a candidate for physical corrections. At two months (I think you said the trainer used one) was just ridiculous. Use the prong for walks if you need too, and in the meantime do a lot of reading on the subject and pick a trainer that has a similar mentality to what you feel would benefit your dog most.

Yes it's an annoying and frustrating behavior. It can be embarrassing at times and from the sounds of it painful. What you need to understand is that this is not a "fixable" behavior. It's just who she is. Your girl is a whirlwind of energy and excitement. You will not be able "fix" it through corrections without breaking her down. Harness, redirect, and use her energy for good. IMO a dog like that is the most rewarding.

Matt Vandart- My dog is luckily past that stage. The only thing I get is the occasional you need to play with me, not sit down for 2 minutes on the couch after working a 12 hour day...
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:35 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Cool.

At the OP:

A video of this behaviour would be very useful., can you do one and upload to youtube?
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