Originally Posted by LuvMyDog_Worldwide View Post
First off Matt, since you're copying and pasting pictures off Leerburg and think you know how and where to fit a prong collar, you're badly mistaken. Ed loves to garrotte his dogs. Personally I'd use lead positioning with a looser collar and a short control lead to get the exact same result and allow the collar to release so it's not giving a permanent correction, the collar is far more efficient and effective if it has....on...off... but what do I know? That picture I picked up randomly from an image search AND if you bothered reading you will see that I said it wasn't completely correct.
I don't know what you know, who are you? all I know is you are someone that sells collars, maybe your an expert on using prong collars, might help if you clarified?
I'm guessing yo may be a security trainer judging by your location.
Secondly, so far the waffle you've put on here is little more than guesswork and bollocks. I can tell you're not in a position to critique the sources of your information, it's very elementary and is elementary mistaken. Next you'll be telling me how it pinches or "nips" the neck like the dam does to puppies.... You really don't have much room to criticise, and based on your responses so far I'd suggest you forget what you think you know and go back to the basics of our starter guide and rethink. No, because that is Ceasar milan bullshit. Why put words in my mouth?
Has it occurred to you I have no room to criticise because I have no problem with prong collars when fitted properly and used properly? "Also damage done by misuse of prong collars is not only physical but also more often psychological, if done incorrectly the dog will associate bad things with either the collar itself or things near it including the possibility of associating the discomfort or even pain with the owner.".....
See what I mean, total and utter crap, ok you read around a few bubblegummers websites, whoopee, doesn't make you an expert, and this nonsense claim has been shot down many times over, you obviously knew that though? Where do you get your information from? Why do you think this is what has happened?
That information comes from an understanding of dog behaviour, particularly escape/avoidance, my main method of training uses proofing through escape/avoidance, I don't need any internet bubblegummers (WTF?) websites to tell me anything about it, I'm an expert at old school compulsive methods.
You never seen a sharp dog come up a lead after a harsh correction?
Why do they do that?
Redirection. "Ah well never mind then, they do no damage at all when a dog Lunges on the lead or people just chuck them on and go walking."
Oh please, boohoo me some more with melodrama. No, that's anything but typical and there are tens of thousands of people who just "chuck them on and go walking" having spectacular results with no injuries at all even with badly fitted collars. I am glad to hear it, thanks for correcting me.
What happened to the bit about the lassie that put one on the other week? Could you not find the thread? I'll find it if you want. "The vast majority of dog owners have no clue how escape/avoidance behaviour works in their dog and that is not opinion just pure fact."
The vast majority don't know how to do a field dressing either, and how many really need to? Probably as many as need to understand how escape/avoidance behaviour works too, so what's your point? Want to impress us with how much you can copy/paste from dubious sources? Um, because they aren't going to be needing to apply any field dressings unless they live in Nottingham/Manchester.
They will however be walking and training dogs.
That information is in loads of books, dvd's, training presentations, dog training courses, in fact its a wonder you haven't heard of it yourself. It's in nearly every training book I have read, every training course/seminar I have been to, everywhere, it's the main reason the average person is rubbish at training dogs
The big problem with information on the internet Matt is well meaning but really very clueless people making out they know more than they do in public and insisting they're right, then other less informed people believing it to be so and propagating the nonsense elsewhere until it becomes "true". In this instance, that's you, give it up. So your saying ALL the information on the internet is wrong then?
Why get so annoyed about it, I have no argument with you, you could have just said 'Yes, prong collars are great as long as you use them properly, we give a guide out with all our prong collars we sell' what's the big deal?
If they are so easy to use then where is the problem?
Vids from professional trainers agreeing with what I say about positioning
Genuinely the only vid I could find positioning as you say and he slips it over the dogs head which as I know you are aware is wrong and dangerous.
Seeing as we are on the internet here, these are my only ways of demonstrating.
If it works for you then great put it how you want, I'll use mine how I use it and everything will be cool, whats the problem?
I use correction escape/avoidance alot in my training methods by teaching the dog what a correction is and how to avoid it IN A DRILL OF ITS OWN. The dog is set up to understand easily when it is getting it wrong and how to get it right and how to avoid the correction by getting it right.
THEN when I train a dog a new behaviour and it understands what is being asked of it, I proof it using the previously learned correction avoidance behaviour so the dog knows it's choice is there, do what I ask or take a correction. The dog now chooses to carry out the last behaviour to AVOID CORRECTION until it is either freed off or asked to do another task.
This way the dog needs less correction, less harsh correction and everyone is happy.
So no, I do not need to cut and paste anything from the internet.
If you want me to bore you to tears about how dogs learn to avoid aversive punishment, the neurology behind it, and how it can be applied then I will and it will all be in my own words from my own learning and recall.
Don't bother calling me out on this, I am a library of information on compulsion training I have been using it for 28 years and believe me there are better ways, things have moved on as I have recently found out myself.
How to fit a prong: How to Fit a Prong Collar
Training is better than tools, tools are there to aid training.