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Old 10-30-2012, 03:45 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Seems the offending picture is missing, but I have a good idea which one of two old chestnuts it is.

Was it the little white dog or the brown dog? You know the ones, the abandoned dogs with embedded collars that have injuries on ther BACK of the neck? The tethered and abandoned dogs with "prong collar injury" pictures.....

One of the worst cases shown on the Unchain your Dog campaign was a plain ordinary nylon collar that was so embedded it was almost impossible to see and was literally under the inflamed skin.

I don't take any of the prong collar injury pictures seriously, they're nothing to do with training, have everything to do with emotive sensationalism, and most concerning are propogating an outright lie by some fairly unscrupulous bullsh*t artists with an agenda. C'mon now, if it were that common an issue, why are there just 2 pictures circulating 6 years apart with NO varifiable background information?

I'm also seeing a lot of myth, guesswork, speculation and people talking like experts in the latter part of this thread on both sides of the argument that are actually fairly clueless. Sometimes, the best way to keep your integrity is to let it go.......
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Old 10-30-2012, 06:28 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Ah well never mind then, they do no damage at all when a dog Lunges on the lead or people just chuck them on and go walking.

Go tell that to the girl in the other thread that did just that a few weeks back.....
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Old 10-31-2012, 01:15 AM   #28 (permalink)
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the Lola collars are great because the prongs are removable individually and you can remove as many prongs as you need plus there are no prongs on the trachea area. They give great control and they don't look like a prong collar while its being worn. Highly recomend them.
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:56 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvMyDog_Worldwide View Post
Seems the offending picture is missing, but I have a good idea which one of two old chestnuts it is.

Was it the little white dog or the brown dog? You know the ones, the abandoned dogs with embedded collars that have injuries on ther BACK of the neck? The tethered and abandoned dogs with "prong collar injury" pictures.....

One of the worst cases shown on the Unchain your Dog campaign was a plain ordinary nylon collar that was so embedded it was almost impossible to see and was literally under the inflamed skin.

I don't take any of the prong collar injury pictures seriously, they're nothing to do with training, have everything to do with emotive sensationalism, and most concerning are propogating an outright lie by some fairly unscrupulous bullsh*t artists with an agenda. C'mon now, if it were that common an issue, why are there just 2 pictures circulating 6 years apart with NO varifiable background information?

I'm also seeing a lot of myth, guesswork, speculation and people talking like experts in the latter part of this thread on both sides of the argument that are actually fairly clueless. Sometimes, the best way to keep your integrity is to let it go.......
By the way, I bought a prong collar off you just last week, so if you think I am anti prong collar you are just not reading my posts.

Your guide to using the prong collar could be much better, it lacks alot of information.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:29 AM   #30 (permalink)
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A prong collar should be used to layer over a behaviour a dog already understands, to enforce these behaviours the dog already understands.
Many people think and buy prong collars in order to teach a behaviour to a dog, like for example walking nicely on the lead.
The dog clearly does not understand what it is meant to be doing if it is constantly pulling.
Also damage done by misuse of prong collars is not only physical but also more often psychological, if done incorrectly the dog will associate bad things with either the collar itself or things near it including the possibility of associating the discomfort or even pain with the owner.
The vast majority of dog owners have no clue how escape/avoidance behaviour works in their dog and that is not opinion just pure fact.
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Old 10-31-2012, 02:39 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
By the way, I bought a prong collar off you just last week, so if you think I am anti prong collar you are just not reading my posts.

Your guide to using the prong collar could be much better, it lacks alot of information.
First off Matt, since you're copying and pasting pictures off Leerburg and think you know how and where to fit a prong collar, you're badly mistaken. Ed loves to garrotte his dogs. Personally I'd use lead positioning with a looser collar and a short control lead to get the exact same result and allow the collar to release so it's not giving a permanent correction, the collar is far more efficient and effective if it has....on...off... but what do I know?

Secondly, so far the waffle you've put on here is little more than guesswork and bollocks. I can tell you're not in a position to critique the sources of your information, it's very elementary and is elementary mistaken. Next you'll be telling me how it pinches or "nips" the neck like the dam does to puppies.... You really don't have much room to critisise, and based on your responses so far I'd suggest you forget what you think you know and go back to the basics of our starter guide and rethink.

"Also damage done by misuse of prong collars is not only physical but also more often psychological, if done incorrectly the dog will associate bad things with either the collar itself or things near it including the possibility of associating the discomfort or even pain with the owner.".....

See what I mean, total and utter crap, ok you read around a few bubblegummers websites, whoopee, doesn't make you an expert, and this nonsense claim has been shot down many times over, you obviously knew that though?


"Ah well never mind then, they do no damage at all when a dog Lunges on the lead or people just chuck them on and go walking."

Oh please, boohoo me some more with melodrama. No, that's anything but typical and there are tens of thousands of people who just "chuck them on and go walking" having spectacular results with no injuries at all even with badly fitted collars.


"The vast majority of dog owners have no clue how escape/avoidance behaviour works in their dog and that is not opinion just pure fact."

The vast majority don't know how to do a field dressing either, and how many really need to? Probably as many as need to understand how escape/avoidance behaviour works too, so what's your point? Want to impress us with how much you can copy/paste from dubious sources?


The big problem with information on the internet Matt is well meaning but really very clueless people making out they know more than they do in public and insisting they're right, then other less informed people believing it to be so and propogating the nonsense elsewhere until it becomes "true". In this instance, that's you, give it up.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:25 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvMyDog_Worldwide View Post
First off Matt, since you're copying and pasting pictures off Leerburg and think you know how and where to fit a prong collar, you're badly mistaken. Ed loves to garrotte his dogs. Personally I'd use lead positioning with a looser collar and a short control lead to get the exact same result and allow the collar to release so it's not giving a permanent correction, the collar is far more efficient and effective if it has....on...off... but what do I know?

That picture I picked up randomly from an image search AND if you bothered reading you will see that I said it wasn't completely correct.
I don't know what you know, who are you? all I know is you are someone that sells collars, maybe your an expert on using prong collars, might help if you clarified?
I'm guessing yo may be a security trainer judging by your location.


Secondly, so far the waffle you've put on here is little more than guesswork and bollocks. I can tell you're not in a position to critique the sources of your information, it's very elementary and is elementary mistaken. Next you'll be telling me how it pinches or "nips" the neck like the dam does to puppies.... You really don't have much room to criticise, and based on your responses so far I'd suggest you forget what you think you know and go back to the basics of our starter guide and rethink.

No, because that is Ceasar milan bullshit. Why put words in my mouth?
Has it occurred to you I have no room to criticise because I have no problem with prong collars when fitted properly and used properly?


"Also damage done by misuse of prong collars is not only physical but also more often psychological, if done incorrectly the dog will associate bad things with either the collar itself or things near it including the possibility of associating the discomfort or even pain with the owner.".....

See what I mean, total and utter crap, ok you read around a few bubblegummers websites, whoopee, doesn't make you an expert, and this nonsense claim has been shot down many times over, you obviously knew that though?

Where do you get your information from? Why do you think this is what has happened?
That information comes from an understanding of dog behaviour, particularly escape/avoidance, my main method of training uses proofing through escape/avoidance, I don't need any internet bubblegummers (WTF?) websites to tell me anything about it, I'm an expert at old school compulsive methods.
You never seen a sharp dog come up a lead after a harsh correction?
Why do they do that?
Redirection.


"Ah well never mind then, they do no damage at all when a dog Lunges on the lead or people just chuck them on and go walking."

Oh please, boohoo me some more with melodrama. No, that's anything but typical and there are tens of thousands of people who just "chuck them on and go walking" having spectacular results with no injuries at all even with badly fitted collars.

I am glad to hear it, thanks for correcting me.
What happened to the bit about the lassie that put one on the other week? Could you not find the thread? I'll find it if you want.



"The vast majority of dog owners have no clue how escape/avoidance behaviour works in their dog and that is not opinion just pure fact."

The vast majority don't know how to do a field dressing either, and how many really need to? Probably as many as need to understand how escape/avoidance behaviour works too, so what's your point? Want to impress us with how much you can copy/paste from dubious sources?

Um, because they aren't going to be needing to apply any field dressings unless they live in Nottingham/Manchester.
They will however be walking and training dogs.
That information is in loads of books, dvd's, training presentations, dog training courses, in fact its a wonder you haven't heard of it yourself. It's in nearly every training book I have read, every training course/seminar I have been to, everywhere, it's the main reason the average person is rubbish at training dogs



The big problem with information on the internet Matt is well meaning but really very clueless people making out they know more than they do in public and insisting they're right, then other less informed people believing it to be so and propagating the nonsense elsewhere until it becomes "true". In this instance, that's you, give it up.

So your saying ALL the information on the internet is wrong then?
Why get so annoyed about it, I have no argument with you, you could have just said 'Yes, prong collars are great as long as you use them properly, we give a guide out with all our prong collars we sell' what's the big deal?
If they are so easy to use then where is the problem?

One
prong1


Two
prong2


Three
prong3


Vids from professional trainers agreeing with what I say about positioning

Genuinely the only vid I could find positioning as you say and he slips it over the dogs head which as I know you are aware is wrong and dangerous.

prongloose1


Seeing as we are on the internet here, these are my only ways of demonstrating.
If it works for you then great put it how you want, I'll use mine how I use it and everything will be cool, whats the problem?

I use correction escape/avoidance alot in my training methods by teaching the dog what a correction is and how to avoid it IN A DRILL OF ITS OWN. The dog is set up to understand easily when it is getting it wrong and how to get it right and how to avoid the correction by getting it right.
THEN when I train a dog a new behaviour and it understands what is being asked of it, I proof it using the previously learned correction avoidance behaviour so the dog knows it's choice is there, do what I ask or take a correction. The dog now chooses to carry out the last behaviour to AVOID CORRECTION until it is either freed off or asked to do another task.
This way the dog needs less correction, less harsh correction and everyone is happy.
So no, I do not need to cut and paste anything from the internet.
If you want me to bore you to tears about how dogs learn to avoid aversive punishment, the neurology behind it, and how it can be applied then I will and it will all be in my own words from my own learning and recall.

Don't bother calling me out on this, I am a library of information on compulsion training I have been using it for 28 years and believe me there are better ways, things have moved on as I have recently found out myself.

Further links:
How to fit a prong:
How to Fit a Prong Collar

Training is better than tools, tools are there to aid training.
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:07 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I would like to reaffirm my thoughts on prong collars.

I have no problem with prong collars.
They are a useful tool to train a dog.
I have no problem with people that use prong collars, I use them myself.
I would not walk a reactive dog with a prong collar as the primary collar, a flat on the main lead and a prong with a tab on it, yes.

Correct correction involves very complex behavioural, psychological and neurological systems with plenty of potential of error.
The beauty of a prong collar when used correctly is, as Luvmydog says, that less force is needed to elicit a strong result.
A correction needs to be strong enough an aversive 'punishment' as to over-ride the appetitive desires within the dog.
Too weak and it will have to be repeated again and again and again.
A correction applied perfectly with perfect timing need only ever be done once, if you have to repeat it, it was not perfectly executed.
Prong collars by their very design allows a 'strong' (not harsh) correction to be applied with as little force as possible, which takes care of one part of 'good correction'.
If you do not fulfil all the above 'correction goals' then you get a situation where a disruptive approach/avoidance conflict is set up because the compulsion is motivationally equal to the inherent reward of the unwanted behaviour.

I personally locate the prong collar up by the head because this is the place where the least force is needed to get the 'strongest' correction IMO.
By having a 'snug fit' the timing of the correction can be executed more efficiently. By fitting the collar a long time before actually using it for 'correction' the dog does not associate the tool with the correction.
I personally put training collars on my dogs along with a flat collar and do stuff they like doing for a long time before I ever start using leash pressure, check out my vids if you want. I play ball with them, I walk them with a lead on the flat collar but put the training collar on as well, this is not so it is there for correction but rather so that they get used to wearing it a long time before it gets used.
I put the rings behind the dogs right ear, this ensures the middle link (Herm sprenger) is not on the dogs trachea.
I often attach the lead to both rings personally for a faster more effective correction, I know people who attach it only to the one ring, JMO
I never use a training collar until they are at the third phase of learning a behaviour (phase one- show and tell, phase two- perform without body language and under distraction, phase 3- perform without body language, under distraction and with correction)

I make sure my dog understand EXACTLY what is expected of it before ever correcting the dog.
I never correct a dog for a mistake only for disobedience.
Mistake- dog does something because it does not know better
Disobedience- dog knows what is expected, has learned the task but chooses not to obey, either because of strong counter stimuli (distraction)or because the dog is just being belligerent.

There are several other methods you can use before turning to punishment, particularly for dealing with something as simple as loose leash walking.

The same can be said for reactivity/drive issues.

If you are going to go down the road of correction, correctly applied correction is paramount, almost every broken or unresponsive dog I have had to fix has been from incorrect application of correction, ranging from poor knowledge of correction, to harsh correction, to 'soft' correction and up to downright abuse.
It is so easy for correction to become abuse if you do not know what you are doing or how it works, the average joe knows neither.

For information only and also just my opinion.

Last edited by Matt Vandart; 10-31-2012 at 06:12 PM..
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Old 10-31-2012, 06:17 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Dobelover -

I asked the trainer about the fur saver because I need one for Elke for her schutzhund training, and he told me it is not as good for training as prong.
Well it depends what you are doing. We have different collars for different things.

Flat/buckle collar- Identification
Prong collar- Obedience, general walking
Harness- (Puppy) watching other dogs do protection, allows the dog to pull and feel strong
Fur Saver- Tracking, also good for general use

I don't believe that choke collars should ever be used, especially with a breed like the Doberman that has a neck that can be damaged. In my opinion, they are more cruel than prong collars. They will choke the dog and can damage the larynx.

With that being said, I don't think any dog should be on a corrective collar until at least 5-6 months. But, I have more of a schutzhund training philosophy since that is what we are doing...
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:18 PM   #35 (permalink)
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That's quite a substantial backtrack on your previous posts Matt, and noticably less certain about your initial statements. I don't have a 'problem', I just prefer being right.

Although I didn't actually specify positioning the 3rd video goes against all our advice and you mus it up with "Genuinely the only vid I could find positioning as you say", how did you manage that? Interesting though, the 3 videos have similar results with various sizes of collar in line with what I did say.

The 1st video is amusing, it's part 1 and the trainer describes fitting the collar just as you say....have a look at part 2, with the exception of a few frames look where the collars are actually fitted....nowhere near the description in part one. How very curious, and in line with what I did say.


You seem to have the problem and had an issue with the starter guide included, in fact it's only you that's mentioned it. Watching part 1 and 2 of the 1st video pretty much covers and sums up exactly what it says. Since you're using that as 'proof' in your argument of good practice I can't take your critisism seriously.


There's a lot of misinformation and speculation about this particular tool acros the internet. Some forums will turn into a flame war and an eventual ban just by their mention. This particular forum, while not always getting it right, is certainly way above average in terms of support for users, and in terms of the accuracy of the information, and the comparisons between different equipment. Your previous posts drop that average. No need to try and dazzle us with your accolades and abilities after your previous ramblings, I'm sure few will be particularly bothered...

So, are you going to give it up yet, or are we going to get petty and pick your posts apart bit by bit?
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:49 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Do whatever you want, I'm not bothered, it will affect my life in no way at all.
Why does everyone on here think I give a toss what they think of my accolades and abilities?

I have just re-read every post I have done and they all say the same thing.

Here you go all in one convenient post for you to quote, rip away, I'm not bothered if I am right or wrong, prove me wrong and I will just thank you.

Quote:
My next door neighbour uses a fur saver on his GSD, he loves it.
Personally I use a flat collar and martingale for walks and only use a prong for proofing stuff if I have to, I would never use one to walk a dog, check out some of the damage prong collars have done on a lunging dogs necks on google it's bad stuff.
Choke chains and aggressive/dominant dog collars are garbage and they damage your dogs trachea even if you cannot see evidence on the outside there will be trauma inside.
That is but my opinion.
Quote:
prong collars worn incorrectly sized and in the wrong place, chain part is far too loose, also why use a large size prong on a short haired dog? the smaller the prong size the more effective the collar IMO:

with the rings behind the dogs right ear so the middle links are not either side of the trachea.

Nothing wrong with the tool when used properly, unfortunately prong collars are often used by absolute tools with no idea or even innocent enough dog owners that don't know any better.
Quote:
Which is exactly what I said.

Fact of the matter is I would guess the vast majority of users do not know how to:
Introduce a prong collar
When it is best/necessary to introduce a prong collar
Use a prong collar properly
Or what a prong collar is actually for such as not for walking your dog IMO.

Dog re activeness should be dealt with in controlled situations, a walk in the park is not one of these.
Dealing with dog reactivity with a prong collar should be done by training the dog first then proofing the dog with a prong if necessary.
I have treated numerous dog reactive dogs without the use of a prong, it can be done, but that is not to say I totally disagree with the use of prongs for this purpose.

Edit for clarity: I say numerous that is not to say all, if this is what you are talking about back tracking.

What I disagree with is the way any old monkey can go and get one and just slap it on the dog and start yanking away, with no counter-conditioning, with no desensitisation just pure unadulterated aversion and positive punishment. It is just wrong.
Quote:
Ah well never mind then, they do no damage at all when a dog Lunges on the lead or people just chuck them on and go walking.

Go tell that to the girl in the other thread that did just that a few weeks back.....
Quote:
By the way, I bought a prong collar off you just last week, so if you think I am anti prong collar you are just not reading my posts.

Your guide to using the prong collar could be much better, it lacks alot of information.
Quote:
A prong collar should be used to layer over a behaviour a dog already understands, to enforce these behaviours the dog already understands.
Many people think and buy prong collars in order to teach a behaviour to a dog, like for example walking nicely on the lead.
The dog clearly does not understand what it is meant to be doing if it is constantly pulling.
Also damage done by misuse of prong collars is not only physical but also more often psychological, if done incorrectly the dog will associate bad things with either the collar itself or things near it including the possibility of associating the discomfort or even pain with the owner.
The vast majority of dog owners have no clue how escape/avoidance behaviour works in their dog and that is not opinion just pure fact.
The rest are on this page, feel free to quote and rip those apart also.

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Old 10-31-2012, 07:58 PM   #37 (permalink)
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and by the way it wasn't a critisism, I was saying, to reword in case you just took it the wrong way:
There is alot of other stuff you could have put on it as well.

By the way if the vidz do give a representation of you starter guide, then mine was genuinely missing some of the information, which is quite possible as when I opened the jiffy bag I ripped it in half and sorta pieced the bits together.
Any chance you have an online guide you can link to me?

Edit: also I didn't learn how to use a prong collar from these videos, but they are the ones that came up on youtube when I typed in prong collar. I didn't watch the second part of the one you mention because I don't have to, I know how I prefer to use a prong collar.

Are you talking about this?

Quote:
I have no problem with prong collars.
They are a useful tool to train a dog.
I have no problem with people that use prong collars, I use them myself.
I would not walk a reactive dog with a prong collar as the primary collar, a flat on the main lead and a prong with a tab on it, yes.
If used correctly.

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Old 10-31-2012, 08:55 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Here is a vid showing the way you said;

Training Video: Fitting a Prong Collar on Vimeo
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:32 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Here is a vid showing the way you said;

Training Video: Fitting a Prong Collar on Vimeo

O my apologies, it doesn't, it shows the fitting as I described, but without the 'rings behind right ear' part.
Sorry I will keep looking for a vid that shows the collar being fitted like the pictures I posted as incorrectly fitted, or is this where my confusion lies.
As in, you are also agreeing with me that the pictures of 'incorrectly fitted prong collars' is not where you say it should be fitted. I may have misunderstood you.

Edit: just noticed this post on the previous page.

Quote:
And you also said the images you posted were damage that was the result of a dog lunging while on a prong collar. Your statement implied that some poor unsuspecting soul taking his dog for a walk and using a prong collar is going to end up with a dog with puncture wounds at best, or a dog with his neck ripped apart at worst, should his dog lunge for a squirrel, another dog, etc.
I'm sorry if that is what I am being perceived as implicating, bad correction (overcorrection) as a result of the lunging is what could produce injuries from a prong collar.
I just don't understand why someone would not want to modify behaviour before exposing the dog to the stimulus that it has the reaction to or even think it is not a good idea to do so.

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Old 11-19-2012, 01:00 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Ok I have continued to look for information on prong collars, correct fitting/placement and came across these:

From the book, Schutzhund obedience training in drive by
Sheila booth with Gottfried Dildei





And this Micheal Ellis vid showing a prong collar breaking, another good reason to not use one for walking a reactive dog.

prongbreak


Interestingly it is fitted lower, I just cannot find any information directly related to fitting it any other way I'm sorry I have tried really hard.
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:59 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Vandart View Post
Ok I have continued to look for information on prong collars, correct fitting/placement and came across these:

From the book, Schutzhund obedience training in drive by
Sheila booth with Gottfried Dildei





And this Micheal Ellis vid showing a prong collar breaking, another good reason to not use one for walking a reactive dog.

prongbreak


Interestingly it is fitted lower, I just cannot find any information directly related to fitting it any other way I'm sorry I have tried really hard.
The prong I now use would probably never ever break..lol! However I still use a back up collar attached to the prong. It's basically a thin leather choke, I attach the leash to both the live ring on the prong and to the live ring on the leather choke.
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