Play biting again? - Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums
General Training & Obedience All training and obedience questions, tips, articles go here

 1Likes
  • 1 Post By dobebug
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-17-2017, 08:30 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
mraimondi87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 179
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit mraimondi87's Gallery
Thanks: 76
Thanked 75 Times in 45 Posts
       
Play biting again?

I know there's the "teenage" stage, but for the past few weeks, when Jack turned about 8 months, he started his play biting all over again. I'll try to explain it. He usually only does it with my wife, more frequently with her, occasionally with me. I don't even know if I call it play biting. He'll be on the couch with us, and he'll be playing with a toy, and then sporadically move to my wife's arm. When corrected, he "talks back" I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about. Crinkles his face, very vocal moans and groans. And tries to bite again. He doesn't bite super hard, but my wife bruises easily and he's been causing some bruises, so I guess hard enough. It doesn't appear to be aggressive, it's just frustrating. He hasn't done it in months, and now he's doing it again. He's being corrected with a stern no, off the couch, into a sit and calm. It goes on and continues. I won't lie there's been times I've had to grab him by the scruff for a shake sometimes holding him down to calm down because he won't stop. I don't like doing that but he will eventually calm. He's been through training, with multiple trainers, none of them, nor his vet, can see an aggressive bone in his body. He's usually a sweet boy. Is this normal? Should we be more concerned?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mraimondi87 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to mraimondi87 For This Useful Post:
Beaumont67 (05-17-2017)
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 09:03 AM
Zuko's Mom
 
jeitzen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 146
Location: Iowa, USA
Dogs Name: Cambria's Fame N Fortitude (Zuko)
Dogs Age: 4.5 years
Gallery Pics: 4
Visit jeitzen's Gallery
Thanks: 121
Thanked 197 Times in 74 Posts
Images: 4
               
I am no expert trainer or very experienced (I've only ever had one dobe) but Zuko does the whole 'talking back' thing, groans and moans because we aren't paying attention to him or playing with him. It's kind of comical how he groans about it. But he has never bitten to bruise or break skin, ever. Even as a 'teenager' he would never bite down. So when we're playing he'll look like he's going to bite, but when he gets ahold of you he'll 'mouth' you by putting his mouth (mostly gums) around your hand or arm but will never clamp down, EVER. He may nibble at my sleeve but he knows biting isn't acceptable under any circumstances.

Jackie, Jake & Zuko


Prince of the Fire nation!
jeitzen is offline  
post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 10:57 AM
Super Moderator
 
MeadowCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,671
Location: MN
Dogs Name: Richter; Sypha; RIP Shanoa & Simon
Titles: Richter: CAA, L1V, NW1, L1I, L1E, ACT1, WAC
Dogs Age: d.o.b. 7/13/2012; d.o.b. 12/6/2015
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit MeadowCat's Gallery
Thanks: 42,087
Thanked 47,994 Times in 13,194 Posts
Images: 1
                     
Click here to find out how MeadowCat became a supporter
I'm going to say that for your dog's age, I think you are probably using too much correction, based on your posts here. I'm sorry to sound harsh, but he's still really young, and I don't think there's been enough foundation work in rewarding correct behavior and showing him what expectations are. It's starting to sound like he's showing signs of mild stress to me and that's coming out in these behaviors you're seeing - not being able to settle, mouthiness, etc.

If it were me, I'd start with a new trainer, stop correcting him all the time and start working more on relationship building where you show him what you want by rewarding correct behavior. Just my opinion, but you have a really young dog with a puppy brain.


DSC_0133
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA L1V NW1 L1I L1E L1C ACT1 WAC & Sirai's Golden Masquerade
“You cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you.
What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.”
― Jane Goodall
MeadowCat is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to MeadowCat For This Useful Post:
dobegal (05-18-2017)
 
post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 01:55 PM
Alpha
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,159

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit dobebug's Gallery
Thanks: 7,016
Thanked 12,290 Times in 3,449 Posts
                     
A very good trainer told me years and years ago that the biggest problem with some owners and their dogs who never seem to get trained is that instead of a correction what they tend to do with the dog is nag, nag, nag.

While consistency is the big answer to a lot of training issues the other thing, especially when it's a VERY undesireable behavior (like "play" biting--especially in older puppies) the other answer to behaviors that you really don't want is to give a real correction.

I agree with Meadowcat that you seem to be needing to do a lot of "correcting" of a number of things and that would have me finding a different trainer but I also suspect that you aren't using an effective correction.

If one of my dogs quit playing with a toy and started to chew on me instead he would be off the couch and into his crate as soon as his teeth touched my arm AND I know because I've seen it a 100 times that a whole lot of people think that the moaning and groaning and continuing to try to continue the "behavior" (whatever it might be--one of my friends had an on going problem with their year old puppy who reverted back to playbiting and yanking the pillows off the couch while moaning and growning about it).

Even though it doesn't appear to be "aggressive" and it probably isn't it's still behavior that really should be corrected as far as I'm concerned. I think, since he stopped biting like this as a puppy and has only started it again, that you have NOT corrected the behavior--in fact you say that when you "try" to correct him he does all the moaning, groaning and face wrinkling. Draw a line in the sand here. When he puts his mouth on you or your wife CORRECT that behavior--remove him from the couch put him a crate or another room--make it a useful time out--it gets the message across a lot faster than "trying" to correct it--it becomes nagging if you keep trying the same thing and it doesn't stop your dog from continuing to bite your wife.

No one should have to be mauled by the household dog--if she can't make the correction then you should.

Geeze, I've lived with dogs for 60 years and I'd HATE to live with one who bruised me because he didn't stop chewing on my arm.
4x4bike ped likes this.
dobebug is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to dobebug For This Useful Post:
Beaumont67 (05-18-2017), dobegal (05-18-2017)
post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 02:02 PM
Super Moderator
 
MeadowCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,671
Location: MN
Dogs Name: Richter; Sypha; RIP Shanoa & Simon
Titles: Richter: CAA, L1V, NW1, L1I, L1E, ACT1, WAC
Dogs Age: d.o.b. 7/13/2012; d.o.b. 12/6/2015
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit MeadowCat's Gallery
Thanks: 42,087
Thanked 47,994 Times in 13,194 Posts
Images: 1
                     
Click here to find out how MeadowCat became a supporter
I'm troubled that the OP's "correction" is to grab him by the scruff and hold him down. This is part of why I think a new trainer is in order. Dobebug's solution is a much clearer, more FAIR correction to the dog, IMO.


DSC_0133
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA L1V NW1 L1I L1E L1C ACT1 WAC & Sirai's Golden Masquerade
“You cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you.
What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.”
― Jane Goodall
MeadowCat is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to MeadowCat For This Useful Post:
4x4bike ped (05-18-2017)
post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 02:43 PM Thread Starter
Alpha
 
mraimondi87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 179
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit mraimondi87's Gallery
Thanks: 76
Thanked 75 Times in 45 Posts
       
Thank you all for suggestions. The scruff grab is the last resort in corrections. If you read my original post, I said there has been times I had to do that, and he calmed as soon as I did it. Never did once say that was my go to correction.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
mraimondi87 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to mraimondi87 For This Useful Post:
dobebug (05-20-2017)
post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 02:53 PM
Super Moderator
 
MeadowCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,671
Location: MN
Dogs Name: Richter; Sypha; RIP Shanoa & Simon
Titles: Richter: CAA, L1V, NW1, L1I, L1E, ACT1, WAC
Dogs Age: d.o.b. 7/13/2012; d.o.b. 12/6/2015
Gallery Pics: 1
Visit MeadowCat's Gallery
Thanks: 42,087
Thanked 47,994 Times in 13,194 Posts
Images: 1
                     
Click here to find out how MeadowCat became a supporter
Quote:
Originally Posted by mraimondi87 View Post
Thank you all for suggestions. The scruff grab is the last resort in corrections. If you read my original post, I said there has been times I had to do that, and he calmed as soon as I did it. Never did once say that was my go to correction.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I wouldn't be doing that at all. Again, I'm sorry if you find what I'm saying harsh, but with an 8 month old pup there really isn't any reason you should need to be doing that. Again, that's my opinion, but I feel like your trainer is failing you with the methods you've been given. I think there is inconsistency in the training and that the method is most likely not showing your dog correct behavior and rewarding/reinforcing it, but rather a lot of "no, don't do that," "no, don't do that' without actually teaching him what TO do. Without a lot of foundation work at the beginning to teach him what is correct, it's really unfair to "correct" him for being wrong, and it create a lot of mistrust and a broken relationship with your dog.

Like I said, just what I'm seeing through a pattern in your posts, and I could be totally wrong, but Dobermans a different type of dog - they can be both extremely sensitive while at the same time pushy, and it's a tricky balance to work with. They are brilliant dogs who typically learn quickly and well, but don't respond well to harshness. Not all trainers "get" them.


DSC_0133
by Shanoa Delta, on Flickr

Richter & Sypha
Glengate's Mountain Fortress CAA L1V NW1 L1I L1E L1C ACT1 WAC & Sirai's Golden Masquerade
“You cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you.
What you do makes a difference, and you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make.”
― Jane Goodall
MeadowCat is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MeadowCat For This Useful Post:
dobebug (05-20-2017), dobegal (05-18-2017)
post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-18-2017, 04:53 PM
Big Lil pup
 
4x4bike ped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,783
Location: Portland, OR
Dogs Name: Foxfire's The Real McCoy (McCoy)
Titles: Pet of the Year
Dogs Age: DOB 9/12/14
Gallery Pics: 9
Visit 4x4bike ped's Gallery
Thanks: 5,578
Thanked 5,196 Times in 2,033 Posts
Images: 9
                     
Hi mraiomdi.

I want to stress what what MC said.... I have had Doberman males since 1974.

I have been inclined (way more than I would like to admit) in my desire to "throttle" them. By that I mean any kind of a physically overt reaction to their unwanted behavior. In my experience, while it may mitigate the immediate behavior, in the long run, it is terribly counter-productive.

This includes: butt smacks, "alpha rolls", nose pinches, leg grabs, and the like. The worst, IMO, is coming over the top of a dog and grabbing by the head or the scruff of the neck. This is an event that a dog will generally only encounter in the "real" world when in a serious fight for their well being and safety. It is a very threatening action.

Yes, in the short run any violent actions to stop your dog's unwanted behavior will initially work. (usually). Eventually, it will backfire. Your dog will become confused and unsure.

My youngest (nee 9-12-14) has never had a hand or voice lifted against him in anger or reprisal. The comments that I receive daily vis a vis his wonderful attitude and socialization lead me to believe that I am correct.

Dobermans are VERY sensitive dogs. I strive for (apologies to Neil Young) " A kinder, gentler machine gun hand".

Best to you and Jack

John

Portland OR

Last edited by 4x4bike ped; 05-18-2017 at 05:06 PM.
4x4bike ped is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to 4x4bike ped For This Useful Post:
Beaumont67 (05-18-2017), dobebug (05-20-2017), MeadowCat (05-18-2017), mraimondi87 (05-18-2017)
post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 05-19-2017, 08:34 AM
Big Pup
 
HavenMae's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 28
Dogs Name: Tell us your dogs name

Gallery Pics: 0
Visit HavenMae's Gallery
Thanks: 3
Thanked 30 Times in 12 Posts
   
Quote:
Originally Posted by mraimondi87 View Post
I know there's the "teenage" stage, but for the past few weeks, when Jack turned about 8 months, he started his play biting all over again. I'll try to explain it. He usually only does it with my wife, more frequently with her, occasionally with me. I don't even know if I call it play biting. He'll be on the couch with us, and he'll be playing with a toy, and then sporadically move to my wife's arm. When corrected, he "talks back" I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about. Crinkles his face, very vocal moans and groans. And tries to bite again. He doesn't bite super hard, but my wife bruises easily and he's been causing some bruises, so I guess hard enough. It doesn't appear to be aggressive, it's just frustrating. He hasn't done it in months, and now he's doing it again. He's being corrected with a stern no, off the couch, into a sit and calm. It goes on and continues. I won't lie there's been times I've had to grab him by the scruff for a shake sometimes holding him down to calm down because he won't stop. I don't like doing that but he will eventually calm. He's been through training, with multiple trainers, none of them, nor his vet, can see an aggressive bone in his body. He's usually a sweet boy. Is this normal? Should we be more concerned?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My Haven Mae is 5 months old and does the exact same thing. She will be so excited to see me when I come in and she jumps all over me going crazy and when I start to pet her she will start the biting. She's not being aggressive but even so it's getting out of control because she is 50lbs now and super strong.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
HavenMae is offline  
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Doberman Forum : Doberman Breed Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome