doberkim

I think that you JUST got your boy under 2 months ago - yeah he is two, but you didn't raise him from a pup, he is NEW to your house - he cannot possibly be fully trained, and he needs more PRIVATE training with just him alone. additionally, we all told you adding another dog would make your 1 year old puppies training decline to some degree - so its not unusual that not fully trained dogs would have poor recalls when together. my puppy is a year old and she's had intense recall training from day one since i got her at 7.5 weeks old, and today she chose to blow me off because she was playing with her brothers and that was more interesting than coming to me - when there is more than one dog, recalls are always going to be harder.

they need to have 100% recalls ALONE before you start to train them together. grabbing an ecollar as an easy way out is not the way to go, IMO. I think that even you think otherwise, IMO their foundation is probably lacking a bit and it will show at some point.

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robinb

Thanks Kim, I TOTALLY agree with you, I didn't know she had only had the dog for two months. Please listen to kim, that's why I was emphasizing to make sure he really FULLY understood the recall, which wouldn't be possible in two months.

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dobebug

I've used an e-collar in training just twice with two different dogs. In both cases it was for a recall problem.

The first dog was an Australian Shepherd who knew perfectly well what "come" meant but choose to blow me off if I was far enough away that I couldn't reach him. That meant if I took him to an off leash park I had to be prepared to spend as much of the day as necessary until he was good and ready to come when I called (hours usually). I had resorted to simply never taking him off leash. One of my tracking partners asked about this and I explained and she asked if I'd ever used an e-collar--at that point I hadn't so she brought her Innotek the next week--we were tracking in a big grass field adjacent to a peppermint field and down the road from a huge farm pond. No traffic at all around.

First we tried him out on a 50 foot long line and he came instantly when called but I knew he would since he always knew if he was on or off lead. We switched him to a 100 foot long line with the same results. All the other dogs (about six of them) were loose and running in the grass field at the base of the road up to the farm pond. We set him up with the collar regulated to about a second level stimulation. I turned him loose when he was about 50 yards down the road I called him and popped him when he didn't turn. Every time I popped him I raised the stimulus level--the 5th level made him yipe and I felt terrible but it didn't turn him. At the sixth call and level he made a left turn down into a ditch and up and into the peppermint field. I raised the stimulus one more level (and was getting more than worried--there was only one more stimulation level and he was out nearly to the end of the effective area of control. I called him once more--he didn't turn and he didn't stop and I popped him once more. He turned and sat--and he said he wasn't moving. I had to go and get him.

We took him over to a different section of the grass field--I reset the level back to two and let him go--he went out about 50 feet and turned to see what I was doing--I was doing nothing--I let him go out further and called him--he turned instantly and came back.

We ran him a few more weeks with the collar on but if he was within hearing distance he came when called. It was the end of the problem and he never blew me off again.

The other dog was a Doberman who had an unfortunate experience in a recall in an a Novice Obedience trial. His breeder was showing him in some of the trials and I was showing him others. She had been handling him during the trial where his problem started. It was weird--he'd come to me when called. He'd come to anyone else who knew the commands but he wouldn't get up off his butt and come to Kim when called if he was in a ring. A very good trainer who was watching us finally said she had something that would fix it. She went out to her van and got an e-collar. Kim took the dog into an empty ring sat him and went across the ring--the trainer had told her when she called to be prepared to immediately activate the collar--it was set on a level 2 stimulus. So she called he didn't move and she popped him--it was more like he levitated than just got up--but as soon as his butt came off the ground he was on his way to her. That was a one time only time fix too.

Hope this helps. I can tell you (but I already knew it) that Aussies are infinitely more stubborn than the most stubborn of Dobermans.

dobbydonut

If you teach recall with an E-collar you will teach the dog that his name = punishment.... if you shout his name and he does not respond and then you 'correct' him with the collar he will associate his name with the correction which may put you back a stage with training.
You would teach recall a lot quicker by having a pocket full of tasty treats to reward recall with and a lot of patience.

RedFawnRising

Please don't do the give a command=instant nick type of "training," if you do get the e-collar.

That is totally at odds with learning theory, and if your dog happens to "get it" when being "trained" that way, it's because he's smarter than the human operating the collar.

In other words, he/she is figuring it out, despite what is happening, not because of it.

(Btw, "nick" is the split second electronic stimulation, if you hadn't already read up on that, v. the "continuous" level, which gives you a longer, up to several seconds, correction. Won't address that right now, as you should only be using the "nick," if and when your dogs are at a training point to be using an e collar.)

So, train Sit. Ask for Sit. If your dog sits, praise, then release. If your dog fully understands and chooses to blow off Sit, then, and only then, would a correction with an e collar be (possibly) appropriate.

The folks who say Sit, and simultaneously nick, are teaching the dog that commands equal pain/punishment.

Ugh, it's too late for my brain, so I hope that made sense, without going into a lot of technical jumbo on learning theory and operant conditioning.

I personally never proof any obedience except recall (and stopping prey drive kicking in) with the e collar. I agree it's for biggie time important stuff, not how quickly and how straight my dog sits--that's for me to fix and finesse, over time--and that we got, for that kinda stuff, as opposed to full-out running after a deer towards a roadway.

That said, I hope you can work with a trainer to get your basics in place, before you do anything "shocking."

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2RescuedDobies

I disagee especially if you have gone the tasty treats and patience route and the dog knows what it's supposed to do. When used properly an e-collar can solve recall and dog aggression issues. It all depends on when and how its used. If you have a dog with high prey drive and you've tried the tasty treats and long line, I would rather use an e collar than have my dog run across the street chasing a rabbit or other critter and get hit by a car.
I have seen a completely incorrigably (sp?) dog aggressive dog, lay down next to the outside of another dog's kennel after e collar training. And no the dog wasn't shoked to kingdom come.
E-collars have thier place, but like everything it's all in how you use it. Most knowledgable trainers use the minimun amount of stimulation to get the dog to respond. Please seek appropriate guidance before you use an e collar.

EmilyB

If your dog has such a high prey drive, why would you allow him loose at all? Why would you want to use electroshock therapy to get him back?

sebsyd

I engaged a trainer when I first got my two who trained solely on the e collar. I was initially very uncomfortable with her training methods. I did not want my puppies to equate commands with a punishment even though we were treating them all through the process. Also, on advice of many DT members, I agreed that they were just too young to be using the collar. I dropped the trainer and went to obedience classes where both pups learned the basic obedience commands. I worked with both of them individually, because as Kim has stated, they are much harder to control when they are with another pal until I had a pretty good recall. They are more likely to ignore you if they are running together or playing with each other. After they were both totally trained on recall individually, I started to train with both of them.....total disaster! I broke out the e-collars and started to train them both together with the collars on. I NEVER have used more than a buzz. There has never been a need to go to a small shock. Dobermans are so intelligent they just "get it". I let them run in our side pasture which is bound on two sides by woods where there is an abundance of deer and turkey, rabbits, ect. So intoxicating for them to chase the "prey". I never use their names when I want them to return while wearing the collar. I just say "come now" and they usually just turn on a dime and come bounding back to me. Initially, I used treats and praise to reward them, then just praise, and now they just are model dobies when wearing the collar. They just know that by having it on, they need to behave. To clarify this a bit, they do behave most times without the collar, but I get the maximum benefit when the two of them are together and are tempted to ignore me. Also the collar insures that they will stop immediately any unsafe behavior, i.e. chasing deer, ect. Most times now, I don't even have to buzz them to return, just say "come now".
My Tri-tronics unit has three levels, a buzz, a nick, and a continuous button. My daughter lives next door and my two will occassionally visit with her lab if she is outside. I didn't want them to leave the yard where I could see them and go next door so I trained with the collar. I began by walking to a certain point with one of them on leash and stopping him/her with a sit command and a firm "no" (no buzz) when they traveled over the imaginary line. Treats and lavish praise rained down on them. I then went across the "line" and when they wanted to follow and ignored my "no", I simply gave a buzz and a firm "no", again with lots of treats and praise. They now will go up to that imaginary line and will not cross unless I say that they can. The smart little devils will test it though when they don't have the collars on. When they do, I go back to leash correcting up to the line.
I agree with the others that no dog under at least a year should be trained with one. Also, If you haven't had one of your dogs for very long, I would suggest you training him/her without the collar first and on an individual basis. Good luck.

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"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your Doberman. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion."

sebsyd

Emily,
Using the e collar the proper way is in no way "electroshock" therapy. That conotates that the dog receives a shock so severe that he actually jumps or twists under the pain! I would never use anything that would hurt my puppies or that I haven't tried myself first. I did put the collar on my neck first and tried the buzz, the shock, and the continuous setting before I put it on my two. It is so mild, I almost couldn't feel the buzz on the lowest setting. Mine is set on the medium setting and both my dobies are in the high 80's pound wise. Dogs with high prey drive can be very obedient most of the time and then just once get it into their heads that running after that deer or doe is worth the consequences which could lead him into a situation of harm. With the collar on, it prevents them from getting hurt. After all, you can't keep a doberman on a leash all the time, they need to run, run, run!!

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"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your Doberman. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion."

doberkim

I too greatly disagree with the "electroshock therapy" - you're picking up buzz words with extreme emotional connotations there (over a treatment that is still currently used in the US with great success, if you want to get into that!) and transferring them to our dogs.

These are not electrodes placed on my dogs head. My dog is not shocked to the point of him passing out, his brain function is not altered. I am using physical stimulations on his skin to break his behavior, or to form it. And yes, I have used it where my dog has jumped and cried out - I'm not going to nag him with little tiny corrections, if he makes a severe infraction (almost catching a cat and ignoring my recall is such a thing), then he is going to get a high stim for that TO STOP HIS BEHAVIOR. No long lasting pain, no problems - he still gets excited to see his collar, he still loves it.

But this is neither here nor there...

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