Can't quite get leader of the pack position - Page 2

**RedFawnRising** · 07-06-2008, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosamburg

I don't think it is generally a big deal, but if one is losing the battle of establishing pack order I would not do anything that could be construed by the dog as passive behavior. i could be off base in terms of my understanding or information regarding this theory but if the OP is having a tough time establishing pack order then kissing the dog about the face could be one more mixed message to the dog in terms of who is alpha.

Ah, thanks for explaining the thought process there.

Just offering another way to look at that--I probably wouldn't offer kissing around the face, during the inaugural part of NILIF, but not because I'd see that as being passive towards the dog or that the dog would interpret it that way.

What I'd see it as is giving the dog reward/attention that it had not worked for or earned.

So, we agree, in the OP's case, on this, just looking at it in slightly different ways.

clusters · 07-07-2008, 04:48 AM

Hi,

Sorry to be late in my reply. and by the way - it's a bit long but I wanted to try and give you as much info as possible.

For an overview of what I do-
I ALWAYS walk through a door (or into a new space) first.
I eat before her and then gesture eat with her food, she has to sit and wait before I let her eat.
When I say 'firm' I mean that she isn't pampered and doesn't get away with bad behaviour. I correct her with an 'AH' noise (as she seems to respond better to this)
She is taken out twice a day, every day, for up to 3 hrs in total
I feed her
She is allowed on the sofa when she has become relaxed on the floor and only when I invite her up.
I don't allow her to be above me
I do training/games with her every day too

I think that's most of it!! I will have a look at the NILF technique - it's not one I have come across so hopefully there will be some good tips in there for me.

When I mentioned that she is always 'at' me, what I mean by that is she will mouth at my arms and hands, if I try to move her away by standing up and moving towards her she just comes at me more. If I ignore her, she does everything she can to get noticed like jumping at me, pawing at me (which sometimes feels like I'm in the ring with Mike Tyson!), she will sometimes drop her front end down and have her back end up- pupils are massive and she makes funny noises and then lurches at me.

Non of it is aggressive (no snarling etc) it just seems dominant. My OH will try to stop her but as soon as he backs away, she will be at me again. I don't let her lean on me or put her paws on top of my lap etc

Hopefully that has given you a better insight, maybe I am doing something wrong??

x x x

Rosamburg · 07-07-2008, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clusters

Hi,

Sorry to be late in my reply. and by the way - it's a bit long but I wanted to try and give you as much info as possible.

For an overview of what I do-
I ALWAYS walk through a door (or into a new space) first.
I eat before her and then gesture eat with her food, she has to sit and wait before I let her eat.
When I say 'firm' I mean that she isn't pampered and doesn't get away with bad behaviour. I correct her with an 'AH' noise (as she seems to respond better to this)
She is taken out twice a day, every day, for up to 3 hrs in total
I feed her
She is allowed on the sofa when she has become relaxed on the floor and only when I invite her up.
I don't allow her to be above me
I do training/games with her every day too

I think that's most of it!! I will have a look at the NILF technique - it's not one I have come across so hopefully there will be some good tips in there for me.

When I mentioned that she is always 'at' me, what I mean by that is she will mouth at my arms and hands, if I try to move her away by standing up and moving towards her she just comes at me more. If I ignore her, she does everything she can to get noticed like jumping at me, pawing at me (which sometimes feels like I'm in the ring with Mike Tyson!), she will sometimes drop her front end down and have her back end up- pupils are massive and she makes funny noises and then lurches at me.

Non of it is aggressive (no snarling etc) it just seems dominant. My OH will try to stop her but as soon as he backs away, she will be at me again. I don't let her lean on me or put her paws on top of my lap etc

Hopefully that has given you a better insight, maybe I am doing something wrong??

x x x

IMO she needs some physical corrections from you. Though of course I use them, verbal reprimands are pretty much a waste of energy when it comes to Hara.

**RedFawnRising** · 07-07-2008, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clusters

..When I mentioned that she is always 'at' me, what I mean by that is she will mouth at my arms and hands, if I try to move her away by standing up and moving towards her she just comes at me more. If I ignore her, she does everything she can to get noticed like jumping at me, pawing at me (which sometimes feels like I'm in the ring with Mike Tyson!), she will sometimes drop her front end down and have her back end up- pupils are massive and she makes funny noises and then lurches at me.

Non of it is aggressive (no snarling etc) it just seems dominant. x x x

Hehehe, your girl and my Kylie girl were separated at birth, it seems.

This is just pushiness, plain and simple.

One thing, don't have your OH correct her for this behavior towards you--YOU have to be the one to stop it, okay?

The thing is, you're trying to show her what NOT to do, right?

That's fine and dandy, but she's about to go outta her head with energy and the love for you, so you gotta show her what you want her TO DO INSTEAD, okay?

Since she knows her basic obedience, every single time she starts this stuff, give her tasks to do, and reward the heck out of her when she does them. (Okay, you will have to adjust rewards as you go along, as Kylie loses her mind totally with too much happy talk!)

I hope I didn't post this before, but I can't recommend this book enough, easy and fun to read, well-written, total common sense, and inspires you to have fun while getting a well-mannered dog: Pat Miller's The Power of Positive Dog Training.
Read it, it will change your whole relationship with your silly girl

v320 · 07-10-2008, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedFawnRising

One thing, don't have your OH correct her for this behavior towards you--YOU have to be the one to stop it, okay?

Since she knows her basic obedience, every single time she starts this stuff, give her tasks to do, and reward the heck out of her when she does them. (Okay, you will have to adjust rewards as you go along, as Kylie loses her mind totally with too much happy talk!)

I completely agree here...
The OH's correction is undermining your dominance - indirectly.
Perhaps, ask him to observe from a distance, or step further away.

One thing I've used the "other task" technique mentioned above is for teething.
I know it’s not the same scenario, buy you can give it a shot.

Just keep a favorite bone/toys around, and when she starts the neg. behavior, say the correction, and place the object in her mouth. She may just drop it, so you may have to do it a few times.
Do this each and every time, and perhaps eventually she will get the idea.

Keep up posted on how it goes, I’d be interested to see what worked for you!

**RedFawnRising** · 07-11-2008, 01:22 AM

Just keep a favorite bone/toys around, and when she starts the neg. behavior, say the correction, and place the object in her mouth. She may just drop it, so you may have to do it a few times.

Be careful you do not chain behaviors there, if you try this. She may end up training you! Be obnoxious=get a toy and attention/interaction/drama

I prefer to give tasks instead, your mileage may vary.

**dobermansrule** · 07-11-2008, 01:26 AM

sounds like to me she is trying to cling on to you as a playmate/playtoy since the OH is boss and she doesn't have that relationship with him.

there may be a simple effective solution - shun her for a day or two. Not easy to do, but effective. This means basically disengage emotionally from her. Ignore her. Do what you have to do to meet her basic needs but do not otherwise engage. Go about daily activities and interactions with family as normal. If she tries to jump on you, move. Turn away. Do not speak. Do not pet. When it is obvious it is driving her bonkers and she is crawling to you for attention, reestablish things on your terms - basically NILIF or learn to earn. She gets nothing for free from you.

Rosamburg · 07-11-2008, 02:01 AM

Boy, you guys are more patient than me, and obviously more PC. One good correction with an apology and the balance has shifted.

v320 · 07-11-2008, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedFawnRising

Just keep a favorite bone/toys around, and when she starts the neg. behavior, say the correction, and place the object in her mouth. She may just drop it, so you may have to do it a few times.

Be careful you do not chain behaviors there, if you try this. She may end up training you! Be obnoxious=get a toy and attention/interaction/drama

I prefer to give tasks instead, your mileage may vary.

Good point Redfawn!
I didn't think of that. When I usually gave my pup a toy during his chewing phase, I first made him sit, then gave him the toy. If he dropped it, I placed it back in him mouth and then did it all over again.

Redfawn: is there a way around what your referring, to using this method?
Thanks.

Nicola · 07-11-2008, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedFawnRising

Just keep a favorite bone/toys around, and when she starts the neg. behavior, say the correction, and place the object in her mouth. She may just drop it, so you may have to do it a few times.

Be careful you do not chain behaviors there, if you try this. She may end up training you! Be obnoxious=get a toy and attention/interaction/drama

I prefer to give tasks instead, your mileage may vary.

Sorry I have just seen this thread that this point made me smile knowingly. Dobes are so clever and can use training to their own benefit. Bruce did this while i was leash training him - even at just 4 months old!

I started by using treats as a reward for him coming back to the heel position... so he pulled > i stopped > he had a tantrum > he came back to heel > got a reward and we carried on walking. He learnt within a couple of days to create one big motion - run full speed ahead > yank on the lead > spin round back to me and he would get a nice treat for it!

In my puppy class i saw this method working perfectly for every single other breed of dog - not Bruce! Far too clever!!

So i completely agree, you have to be careful that they don't manipulate your training to their advantage, and almost create another bad habit lol