elle

I think you need to decide more of what you want from him, and teach it to him.

You don't want him to walk in front of you, but you don't want to teach him to walk next to you either?! It's a bit confusing, and if you send confusing messages to the pup he's never going to understand what you want.

I wouldn't disregard the idea of rewarding him for what you want altogether just because you don't want him in heel position... If you don't want him right next to you looking up at you, then don't reward him for that. Do you want him walking next to you on a loose leash without an attention heel? Then reward him for that. Feed cookies off to the side a bit further away from your body. You don't want him in front of you? Keep cookies in your back pocket and reward him behind your body... Be creative... You can reward him for what you want (if you know what you want) or you can correct him for what you don't want... Maybe try each and see which he responds to better...

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Bowie's Under Pressure, CD RA CGC

Sidech

I know what I want but if I'm confusing you, maybe I'm confusing Zack as well.

I can't make him heel and I don't want him to pull. What I want : for him to be anywhere between by my side and about 2 feet in front of me, as long as he doesn't pull. That is what he is doing right now too. He will be right next to me or about 1 step in front of me.

BUT, and the BUT is, he walks at an angle, can't walk a straight line, so he's making it really hard for me to walk without tripping.

I've never worked with food with my dogs, never liked it. I don't know why, the idea of a dog doing something for me because I give him food just doesn't appeal. I'd rather have them do it because they want to please me, not get fed.

On the other hand, I want this matter resolved because I usually really enjoy taking walks with my dogs, but not so much right now.

I'll give the food a try, giving it to me away from my body, at the end of my arm. I'll see how it goes.

Thanks.

hbwright

Food can be an excellent training tool. It doesn't have to be used at all and can be weaned off of in liu of praise when the behavior that you want is exhibited more and more often. This is very common. I never treat as a reward for something that we already know how to do well.

Have you tried cutting him off when he starts doing this to you. When his body starts going out in front of you and tripping you up, before he gets too far, quickly take a left 90 degree turn. Keep up with this, even if it means walking in a circle, gradually trying to increase the size of the circle, until he "gets it".

Sidech

I like that idea very much ! I'll try that tomorrow morning on our walk and see how it goes. If it doesn't work, I still have the food option.

HSeidel49

Hannibal does the same thing. While walking right beside me he vears into me every few seconds. It doesnt matter the side either. If I give him the whole leash lenght, he goes from right to left to right to left and so on. THe dog just can not walk in a straight line to save his life. WHile walking next to me I step on his feet all the time. You can even hear his claws crunching between my feet and the road. OUCH.

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elle

the one thing ALL my trainers comment on is my dog's desire to please me. he is very "honest" in training - he tries hard and only makes mistakes when he doesn't understand or i'm not clear. he has NEVER willfully disobeyed me.

that being said, i use food all the time in training. food is not something i use to bribe him into doing something -- it is a tool i use him to show him that what he is doing is what i want. he understands food comes from me and he has to do what i want to get it. it is an invaluable training tool to me for teaching new behaviors.

(you've already used corrections with him, if you follow the same line of reasoning then, he's only doing behaviors because he's scared of the consequence [pulling=choking] and not because he wants to please you. don't get me wrong, i think corrections are necessary in moderation during training, but your logic in regards to food is somewhat flawed)


by already teaching him loose leash walking, you have already put rules to walking on a leash that are different than what he will face in conformation.

it is VERY hard for a dog to understand that you want something as specific as lining the head up with the butt when you're not asking for any criteria with it more specific than "somewhere in the vicinity of my left side with a slack leash" -- do you see what i mean?
body awareness is a difficult concept for dogs, much more difficult than teaching a position in relation to YOU.

if you don't want to use food, you don't have to. but my basic premise is the same: you can either extinguish this behavior by using correction or through rewarding something else instead. you can use whatever you want as reward (verbal praise, play, food, etc). and again, you can try both ways and see what works for your dog - no one method is fail proof for all dogs. it is trail and error to learn what works for you.

if it were me and i required was a loose leash walk next to me and i wanted to extinguish the walking directly in my path behavior, i would use positive reinforcement to teach the dog where i did want him until he stopped trying to go to the spot where i didn't want him.

i would start by immediately stopping whenever the dog got in front of me. i would keep cookies in my left pocket and take one out with my left hand without saying anything to the dog. i would place my left hand with the cookie down behind my left buttock. i would then start moving forward and take a few steps with the dog walking behind me focused on the cookie. this will cause the dog to have to straighten his body out and stop wrapping around you. when the dog walks correctly a few paces, release the cookie to him. once he understands a little whats going on, if he forges again i would again stop, give your butt a little tap and keep going. if the dog follows without wrapping up around you again follow it up with a reward (cookie/praise/play/etc). if once he understands that he shouldn't be wrapping around in front of you (you stop when he does it and he gets out of your way without prompt from you), then i would add in a correction if he continued to wrap. If you're using a choke chain, this could be just a quick pop.

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Bowie's Under Pressure, CD RA CGC

elle

walking him into a left teaches him that you don't want him in front of you and that you do want him to follow at your side (a loose definition of heel) as there is no way for him to still have an undefined position in relation to you (no heel) and be able to walk in front of you if you turn left...

this gives the dog an idea of what you want from him in relation to you -- which is the premise of teaching heel position (though it is often done in other ways than this). cutting him off is forcing him into heel position and thus teaching that not remaining in heel position is incorrect.

these are subtle differences, but to the dog they are everything. this method (a variation on the koehler method) is a way of teaching a dog to heel. actually, for many years it was the preferred way to teach a dog to heel -- put him on a leash and drag him along with you no matter which way you go until he learns it is better to heel with you than try to veer off.

from what you've described - the willingness of your dog to do what you want, his quick response to relatively mild corrections - he sounds like a pretty soft dog that is willing to please. thus, doing this enough probably will teach the dog a rough version of "heel" position.



i'm not confused as to what you are trying to explain -- i'm trying to explain to you that what you want from your dog is a very difficult thing to teach to a dog. in order to perform a behavior, most dogs need to understand both what is desired and what is not desired. the minute rules you want your dog to follow: walk free but don't walk in my path are not compatible.

you teach the dog to not walk in undesirable places and have thus defined where the desirable places are (even if its not the same position as traditional heel, it is the same thought process on the dog's part which is likely the part your handler wants you to avoid -- they don't want the dog to have a preconceived notion about where/how to walk).

and all this being said, i still think its ridiculous that people think dogs can't be trained in obedience and conformation all at the same time. people severely underestimate the dog's ability. your dog knows when he is out for a walk with you on his normal collar and leash and when he is in the ring on a show lead with a handler. dogs can comprehend that different rules apply in different situations.

God, I'd love it from an obedience standpoint if I taught my dog a heads-up competition heel and he automatically applied that to "everytime I walk with mom I strut beside her"! But the truth is, my dog heels like a champ when we're working/in class/in the ring/etc (great attention, great position), but when we're not working and I haven't asked for anything he defaults to the behavior he came with: choking himself at the end of the leash. His heel command is "strut" - his command for not choking himself at the end of the leash is "with me" - if i don't tell him either of those, free game, do what you want. Dogs are much more discerning than people give them credit for - there is no reason a dog can't learn how to walk one way when on a walk with you and another way in the ring.



But I digress, I've gotten off topic. My original point was you either put rules to something or you don't - dogs like to generalize when it comes to specific behaviors, it is hard for them to understand that they can be free to hang around your left side as long as the leash isn't tight *and* as long as they don't walk in front of you. The more "don'ts" you add, the more the dog becomes confused about what the "do" you want is - unless you teach them what the "do" is in explicit terms they understand (eg reward). You seem reluctant to want to teach the dog the "do" - which is fine, but the more "don'ts" you are adding, the more you are defining a specific behavior anyway. So isn't it easier for the dog if you just cut to the chase as show him what you do want?

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Bowie's Under Pressure, CD RA CGC

VegasHR

Have you asked your breeder or future handler how they would like you to handle this problem? Maybe they have a method they use? I would call and ask or make an appointment so they can see what you are talking about. Good luck.

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Dragon Slaying Dobermans Incorporated, Member #025
"I don't need to sit for the cookie, I hunt dragons all day dammit!" - Lexxington

Sidech

elle, I really appreciate your advice. In fact, you have pretty well described my dilemma here. What I would really like is a dog that heels the old fashion way. But my dog being co-owned and meant to be a show dog is making me hesitate to do that. I'm afraid I will ruin him for the breeder and handler, which I certainly don't want to do.

I want to do obedience training with him, and I will, but I've been told not to teach him to heel or sit when I stop, because that is not what you want in the ring.

So I'm really torn between what I'd like him to do personnally, my obligations to the breeder and the fact that I want him to be successful in the ring.

So I'm thinking maybe I'll just have to " endure " this walking into me thing until he gets his title, and then start working him the way I like it.

thea2003

What about different collars for different jobs?
Like a flat buckle or choker or whatever for walking and then his other collar for shows?
Then maybe you CAN teach him to heel when you are out on leisurely walk but he will still associate the other collar with the show, you may just have to practice with both collars though.

***oops sorry Elle, I see you already suggested this***