Agression towards people but not dogs - Page 3

obiethedobe · 06-26-2008, 02:53 PM

Yes, hackles are raised. He steps toward the target untill it steps toward him then he will run away, but most people are freaked out when he is acting that way so they back up and he just keeps going forward.
He loves car rides, people we know he's fine with, other dogs, most loud noises. He is more cautious about new places but not for long.
I am really going to carry a spray bottle with us everywhere we go, it works like nothing else does. I just didnt think to carry it on a walk or visits with friends or new people.

Lexxsmom · 06-26-2008, 05:42 PM

interesting, i'm not sure what to make of that. I think you should start making a goal to have him meet as many "new" people ( ie people you know but he doesn't really) per day as possible. Get them to give him treats and to interact with YOU, hug you, touch you, shake your hand... etc.

Also, leaving him with a "new" person would be great too as already mentioned!

Rosamburg · 06-27-2008, 01:46 AM

I am of mixed opinion on the Alpha rollover. I used to do it years ago. More recently most of what I have read discourages it and one article I read implies that it actually increases aggression. I know the Monks of New Skete eliminated it from their classic book, "How to be your dog's best friend". I am not sure how you would measure this as dogs that have already been rolled would tend to be aggressive to start so are they comparing to a regular population of dogs? I don't believe everything I read anyway. I have not used it in years but I have seen it recommended in certain situations by a trainer I respect. You would have to know what you are doing or you could get bit. I don't think in this situation it would be the best approach. You also need to do a correction that will block the behavior not add stimulation. Sometimes with certain dogs a prong collar will add stimulation and drive if it is below their threshold. Therefore, no matter what you do, don't make the fatal mistake of an under-correction because nagging only makes matters worse.

**Incredibledobe** · 06-27-2008, 02:36 AM

Too many people just don't understand the alpha roll, they hold the dog down until it "gives up" and not until the dog just looks away - which sends the dog into a defensive state where he struggles more and in his mind may be fighting for his life - hence getting bit.
The dog will mostly just quickly avert his eyes or glance away quickly and people don't look for that or miss it - it happens in just a second - that is the time to let him up and act as if nothing happened. Their body language is so much more fine tuned than ours.
All in all, I think it's over used and misused. In your situation, I certainly would be against using it.

WorkingInSTL · 06-27-2008, 07:55 AM

I am going against my own policy of giving an internet diagnosis of a canine problem here, but what I have heard is common of a puppy at 6 months. The dog is most likely in the "fear period" of his development, and feels threatened by strangers. That's why you see his hackles raised, etc. A 6 month old puppy does not have the courage to face a percieved threat, so he will naturally back up if he feels he is being confronted directly. When the "threat" turns to walk away, the youngster perceives that as having won the challenge, because in his mind, his bluff made the person submit by retreating. This behavior should definitely not be encouraged, and you run the risk of it getting worse if not corrected.

I do use the "alpha roll", but only to correct a very specific behavior, and only with dogs of a very narrowly defined temprament. In other words, I have a use for it only to correct a very specific type of dog with a very specific problem. Due to the age of your puppy alone, your dog does NOT fall into this category.

I think you need to find another trainer to work with. This behavior, as I've said before, is VERY common in puppies the age of yours, and this trainer should have recognized it right away and known how to deal with it appropriately.

I stand by the method I gave you initially to correct this problem. A pop with the prong collar is appropriate for this misbehavior, but as another poster pointed out, be sure it's stern enough that your dog is very clear that you will tolerate this behavior. That, combined with the concept of handing the leash to other people and walking away, teaching the dog that other people are "fun" and not "scary", almost never fails to solve this problem with puppies, expecially after they grow out of the awkward stage of mental development that your dog is probably in right now.

Edit: I'm not a big fan of the spray bottle. If he responds to a leash correction, I would personally stick to that. To me the spray bottle, or marbles/pennies in a can are just a gimmick and really does not address the problem, except to create another one (for example, the dog is conditioned to be sensitive to water, so the next thing you know, it doesn't want to go out in a rainstorm, or you've made the dog sensitive to loud/strange/unexpected noises). Others will disagree with me, and that's fine if these methods work for them, but, for me personally, I've seen just as much negative as positive with these sort of trainnig methods.

GunnersMum · 06-27-2008, 09:56 AM

While I use the water bottle it should only be used sparingly and not as the be all and end all of stopping unwanted behaviour.

When training, positive reinforcement of appropriate behaviour is better than constantly correcting. It's harder to build confidence in a dog that is always wondering if that bottle is going to come out.

WorkingInSTL has given really good advise on how to stop him growling at people. I just want to add that if his barking and growling at people makes you nervous or causes you to pull the lead tight then you're transmitting to him those feelings which will make the situation worse.

obiethedobe · 06-27-2008, 10:55 AM

I have found a new trainer who specializes in "protection breeds" to do his obedience with.
It's one on one training but lots of interaction with other owners and dogs that are always there. Check out the website and let me know what you think, its ULTIMATE K9 BODYGUARDS. I've only read good things about it, no negative reviews or complaints. I did think it was pretty over the top from looking at it but after talking to the guy I think it's the best way to go.
I like the water bottle but am trying to do positive reinforcement moreso, using treats or a toy works better for him. I'm not rolling him anymore anyways becuase it doesnt work.
Awesome advice! Thanks again!!!

**Doberdog** · 06-27-2008, 06:06 PM

I love the advice everyone gave you. I think one of the most important things someone said was, not to talk soothingly to him and try to calm him when he does it. Stay relaxed, give a stern no and a stern pop of the leash, then ignore him and just talk calmly to the person.
I agree with everyone else about the trainer. Rolling was not the right thing for your situation. Your puppy has fear and rolling him probably made it worse. I'm not saying I have never rolled Q, but certainly never would for fear. Your trainer should have been able to take control right then and nip it in the bud. I'm so glad you found someone new to give a try.
I was told once that if I am walking my dog and see someone coming with a kid or another dog and I pull the leash tight and get all nervous, that my dog would learn to assoc kids and other dogs in a bad way. I need to stay relaxed and just put the dog on the opposite side and keep on trucking. If he starts to veer in that direction, just snap the leash, and say ATT, or whatever you use, to get his attention and keep on going.
Please keep us posted on his progess and what you think of the new trainer. I will check out the site.

obiethedobe · 07-02-2008, 12:23 PM

We went to petsmart over the weekend and Obie was amazing, no growling, perfectly happy with adults, kids, dogs.
He met a few more people he has never met before and wasn't scared at all.
So hopefully it's working.
Also it's been a week since neutering him and he seems very different, very laid back and cuddly now, almost a different dog.