Quita

I think age is CERTAINLY an issue.. and sometimes I wonder about ADD! LOL Being frustrated with my instructor doesn't help. I think I'm going to take some time off from obedience class, do more training on my own, and spend some time trying to find an instructor whose training philosophy is closer to my own. I have PLENTY of things to work on ... and I know what we need to do. At this point in time, more socializing, getting out into new environments, and working on basic ATTENTION (in these strange environments) is what we need to do. I also have to remember Risa's age and make sure to keep training FUN.

I also feel pretty sure that I'll learn a lot from Michael Ellis. Hopefully after spending a weekend with him I'll have a list of things to work on and a "plan of attack."

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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

VegasHR

It's hard when they are so big to remember that they are still young. I am guilty of that myself. I forget that Vegas is still a young goofball and that he doesn't know everything (yet) I myself have gone back a few steps and am training less and doing basic attention more, and trying to keep it fun. I feel your pain, you are not alone. Have a great weekend with Micheal Ellis, keep it light and have fun.

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doberkim

Erica -
if you tried to do things and couldn't get them - you asked too much too soon in too distracting of an environment - she wasn't ready to offer you what you asked for! I can't help but feel that you will blame this training method no matter what because it isn't Ivan's, so I'm not sure why you are continuing with it? Why CAN'T you use the tug in class? Why must it be that you train one way at class and another at home? Why is it that you have to create such a dichotomy? I think assuming that there are somehow entire schools that train "Ivan's way" is a misnomer - I don't think there are much of these anywhere - perhaps some schutzhund clubs teaching them this way (obviously Ivan's!), but there certainly aren't competitive obedience clubs using them to my knowledge around here at all. And there is NO reason why Ivan's foundation (because it IS only a foundation - it wouldn't take you all the way through utility the way it is) couldn't be incorporated into any training regime the way it is, with some creative thinking.

I train with 4 different main trainers right now - 2 of which are obedience judges, and 2 of which have multiple OTCh's to their name (2 of these are one and the same person). All of them overlap in some things - I trained at at least 4 different locations in the past year, and each of them had different methodologies. I don't change how *I* train my dog each place I go - his foundation is the same. perhaps the only thing I change is his collar - in one location, prongs are never allowed, and I respect that. I still do some things my own way, including how I have taught a retrieve (purely positive), what my commands are, etc. If someone comments on them, which they rarely do, I simply say I have found this works best for my dog. If we are learning a new behavior, I try it their way and if it really doesn't work for my dog, I try to modify it within the confines of what we already know, to work. My job is to be a consistently fair trainer to my dogs. ALL of my trainers use "Ivan's" tug games for fast sits and downs - go figure. Ivan didn't create these games - they have been around for a long time, in use for years. I use tug games and then ask for fast snappy set ups, for quick fronts - you can easily mesh these two methodologies, it will just take some creativity on your part. I'd stop focusing on how different they are and start looking at how alike they are! While Ivan doesn't click, I've often been the lone clicker in many places, because I've found it helps me out a lot in clarifying what I am trying to convey to my dogs, and I often use NRM's as well.

That being said, if you truly have problems with both the philosophy and the methodology, why are you training there?

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Quita

[quote=doberkim;193883]Erica -
if you tried to do things and couldn't get them - you asked too much too soon in too distracting of an environment - she wasn't ready to offer you what you asked for! I can't help but feel that you will blame this training method no matter what because it isn't Ivan's, so I'm not sure why you are continuing with it? [quote]

This is exactly what happened when I went to the field. I was asking for too much. So yes, I lowered my expectations and asked for BASIC attention... look at me... and a sit here and there. That was it. I realized that she was too distracted to do anything else. I am not comparing everything to Ivan, it's just what comes out on the forum since I know that people here know his methods. I use a combination of methods and have been using a lot of shaping (which Ivan does not like) and clicking with Risa. I've used more "traditional" ways too, especially with Fiddler.. I've done the choke chains, the prongs, food, no food etc. etc. I know that there is not one single way, and I train using a variety of methods.

No, I don't assume that. I just want to learn more about his methods and am having trouble finding places where I can learn more. Since I can't take workshops with him at the moment, I'd like to find people who know more about his methods than I do... that way I can learn from them and learn more. There are some things I like about clicker training, and I use them. There are some things I don't like about the clicker, so I don't use it at times. I am also not against all "traditional" training methods. I am learning in my obedience class and am using some of the things that I am learning. There are other things that I don't use.. No trainer is perfect and no training method is perfect.

Yes, exactly. I just spent an hour over dinner giving my husband all of the examples where her training methods and philosophy do not agree with mine. I have examples from the first day of class. (I'm not going to get into specifics here, but I'd be writing all night long if I had to repeat my dinner discussion, and I just don't feel like getting into it all again.) Although I didn't agree with everything, I was learning in class... so I kept going. Now, however, differences and frustrations are impacting the overall experience that I'm having. I'm getting frustrated and it's carrying over to Risa. Training should be enjoyable and fun. When I leave class almost in tears and continue to vent to my husband and on this discussion board, then things have gotten to a point where I need to reevaluate. If I had to do it all over again, I would have observed a few classes and interviewed the trainer before signing up.

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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

Quita

I guess I'll give one example to illustrate a difference in training methodology/theory. I use the tug to teach Risa to pay attention to me. If she looks right at me, gives a certain behavior, does a proper sit, etc., then I release and reward with the tug. She wants the tug, so she'll do what I say to get to play "the game." I was using food in class to try and get Risa's attention. We were working on the heel position. Risa was paying zero attention to the food. During a tug play time, I showed the instructor how much focus and attention I get when I use the tug instead of food. The instructor agreed and said that she does this in a similar way with her dog, but she uses a ball. She explained how she does this and showed how she holds the ball above her left shoulder. (Now the dog is in the heel position looking up at the ball.) Well, using the ball/tug on my left shoulder, to get the dog's attention up, is not how I teach when using the tug. I do not use the tug to lure my dog into position. The instructor gave this example to show how she understands what I am doing, but her example showed me that she does not understand. We are using tugs/balls in fundamentally different ways.

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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

doberkim

If you are truly leaving that frustrated, I would definitely reconsider going there- we do this because it is supposed to be a fun thing we do with our dogs, and leaving almost in tears isn't fun! I'd find it hard to drag myself there everywhere week... are you still in their attention class?

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doberkim

I think that comes down to she's teaching a totally different thing - Risa looking up at you and giving you attention is a totally different thing again, than heel position. Ivan doesn't use the tug to teach heel position, either. He physically places his dogs in heel position over and over and over again (ad nauseum) and personally, my dogs find that demotivating, probably because I find that demotivating and Rah is too big to physically move all the time. My dogs learn attention by looking away from a cookie or a toy to my face as well - but not heel position. But that is a different thread and we already posted that... there's a difference between heel position and attention.

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Quita

I appreciate your comments, Kim. You do make some good points. But yes, I would have been in tears if I hadn't called my husband on the way home. When it gets to this point, it has a negative impact on me, Risa, my relationship with Risa (during my moments of frustration), and my overall training. A day ago I would have said I was going to return. I didn't want to "give up" simply over being a frustrated student. After giving this a lot of thought today, however, I'm reconsidering.

(This is one of the Attention classes. There are 3 levels.)

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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

Rosamburg

For me the biggest red flag was when the trainer said she was not moving fast enough ("SHOULD be on the long lead by now for the fronts". From my experience (My TD was harping on this the other day as well) the biggest problems usually come from moving forward too fast. It is the dog who should convey when the time is to move forward and not a set schedule in someones mind. Then again I don't train with professionals, who have to adhere to a set schedule. My training director is there because that is his passion/obsession. He spends more of his own money to support the club as well as the region than anyone I know.