Quita

I know that there are a few people here who do not use food or toys when training. I'm curious.... How do you teach heeling without food or a toy/tug? I've seen Ivan Balabanov teaching the heel (in his videos) using a tug as a reward. I know a lot of people use food as a reward. My current instructor uses LOTS of luring with food to teach the heel. I prefer Ivan's way to the food luring, but I don't know anybody else in the area who uses this method. I'm only basing this off of the videos. So, I'm curious, how do people teach heel if they aren't luring with food, spitting with food, using food as a reward, or using a tug/toy?? I would love to have more options for my training. Since I'm not familiar with many other methods, I do the luring during our obedience class but use the tug at home. (I think Risa is a bit more toy motivated than food motivated.)


Sidenote: I'm interested in non-traditional methods. I'm familiar with how to teach the heel using a choke collar and/or prong collar. I'm familiar with the traditional method of correcting with the leash/collar. I'd like more options for teaching in a more positive way. Risa is very soft, and physical corrections do not work very well with her. I imagine people can use verbal praise as a reward. Other than that, I'm not sure of other ways to teach the heel.

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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

DobeSpell

We used corrections in the class.
No! followed by correction and then you put him in the right position and then praise him a lot.

robinb

I think you need either food or a toy. I think some instructor's think toys (tugs) would be too distracting to the other dogs in a class setting. Some dogs might be more motivated with food and some with a toy. I'm using a tug with my current instructor and get lots of motivation with it. I'm going to a 3 day Ivan seminar at the end of the month, very excited about that.

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Quita

Thanks! I think I might be going to an Ivan seminar in November. In a couple weeks, I'll be working with Michael Ellis. Risa is much more focused with her tug. She heels better too with the tug. However, our instructor uses all food to teach the heel. I explained to her that I've been working Risa with the tug and that she does better this way. Our instructor uses the tug as a final reward ... as a play session. I don't think she understands how you can use it to teach the heel. I mentioned it to her, and I just got a blank stare from her. She has me do all of this food luring to get Risa to look up. Well, Risa already knows to look at me because I don't give her the tug unless she is focused. The other day the instructor was teaching steps to spit food at the dog. Poor Risa was a bit confused. She was supposed to follow the food, but she kept looking at my eyes. Then she'd look at the food then my eyes, confused. So after trying that one time, I'm NOT going to do it again. I had already rewarded her for looking right at ME, and now I'm asking her to lure and follow the food. I felt horrible for confusing her. Then last night we were doing the heel by holding food in the heel position. YOu have to hold the food at a certain height, at a certain angle, etc. etc. to get the dog to heel straight. (And I still don't understand why I can't do a normal walk when teaching the heel. The instructor emphasized a very specific heel-to-toe type of walking.)When luring with food, the dogs just hold their head up because they are following the food. Well, Risa will follow ME when she wants the tug.. She will look right at me. Now in class, I'm asking her to follow he hotdog. Ughhh. I just don't know what to do. I like the class in many ways, but I do not like how we are teaching the heel. The problem is that nobody else in the class teaches it a different way. When I mention things that I learned on Ivan's videos, the instructor acts like she's open to new ideas, but I can tell she's a bit skeptical. Risa and I still make mistakes, so I'm hesitant to just "do my own thing" (and mess up on my own) when the instructor doesn't teach this way. I figure luring with food one day out of the week won't mess Risa up. At home, I continue to teach using the tug. I'm anxious to take Michael Ellis' seminar and learn how he teaches heeling.

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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

Rosamburg

What kind of attention are you looking for? Competition based? We start backwards against a fence. We have the dog in the basic postion (sitting next to you) we then maintain total eye contact. We then take a step or two backwards. When the dog does this we give a break command which is the cue for the dog to play. You can start just playing with the dog as the reward though we generally use a tug as the reward. We build up to taking a number of steps backwards while the dog is maintaining eye contact. Forward heeling then becomes much easier.

The old style compulsion training using corrections to place the dog in the correct position does not produce a dog that maintains great eye contact with a good expression. Once the dog knows the exercise we apply corrections but not in a manner that "compulses" the dog into the correct position but instead adds stress/confict that the dog must work through and figure out instead that being in the correct position is more comfortable than being out of position. Again these corrections (generally small but consistent pops on the leash with a prong collar) are applied in the proofing or securing stage and not in the learning phase. the same stress could be used with an e-collar at low levels.

BackInBlack

I have never done it without food or a toy. Rommel was taught with a toy, and now I use food and a toy. Ziris is being taught with a clicker and food. Brownie was first just taught to walk with his head up (I didn't care about position) just head up....with a food lure. Now I am using the clicker to mark the position.

I think the reason people like to use food and not a toy (this is the way it was explained to me and it makes sense) is that the dog never has to break the position to get the reward.

That makes sense to me.

I know people who use the Ivan method for training and their dogs look awesome though. I still highly recommend his training method because I have seen the results of it on my friends Malinois. They have unbelievable obedience. I think this is a combination of using his methods and her awesome work ethic with her dogs, but the results speak for themselves. This was also the method I used with Rommel later in his training. This was kind of a breakthrough for him, all of his obedience improved.

I think in the learning stage of training ANYTHING, you need a motivator (food, toy, etc) If not, most dogs would burn out very easily.

There are several ways to get there, you just have to find what works best for your dog.

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K9Jarko

Not sure I'm understanding the question....

Most know that I use the obedience without conflict - better known as the "Ivan method". I do not lure my dogs with whatever reward I use to teach them to "find the leg" and/or attention heeling. Although I DO in the beginning stages - pay them each and every time they perform a command/or maintain position correctly - then later on I require them to perform longer or up the antie pertaining to correctness in order to obtain their reward - but I don't use the reward (it's usually in a pocket or on the ground) to lure them.

Much like clicker training - it is all about the dog learning first through trial and error (baby steps)as to what he must do in order to obtain his reward. The handler must have good timing when rewarding a desired behavior (within 2 seconds) and be VERY CONSISTENT AND FAIR...especially in the beginning stages so that the dog understands what position or action on his part has earned him the reward. Sometimes, as in Zane's case, it takes a little while for the light-bulb to come on using this method - which is why alot of people get frustrated with the method and move to leash/collar correction or luring with food BUT if one sticks with it...when the light-bulb comes on...it's amazing how fast and accurate they learn the basics and advanced skills. Incorrect position is marked with a verbal no - correct position is marked with yes, a release word (I use okay) and then a reward. As times goes on a bridge is added - I use good...which tells them that they are on the right road and to continue what they are doing to eventually obtain their reward.

As for attention heeling.....I teach attention first - If the pup/dog is sitting I move into position next to him (sit/heel) and just stand there waiting for him to eventually look up and into my eyes...they eventually look up if only to wonder what the heck we are doing just sitting/standing there....the moment they do.... I say "YES - OKAY" and immediately reward making that split second glance up at me that greatest thing the dog has ever done - I reward him and lavish him with verbal and physical praise (petting). I do this several times before pairing it with "look or watch". How I pair it is while verbally praising I say good watch or look - very good watch or look. If you don't sound like a blithering idiot ie., like most adults do when cooing over a baby...when praising your dog....then your wrong I practice this any chance I get during the day.....my dogs are velcro dogs so it makes it very easy while preparing dinner or watching TV or whatever I'm doing - I'll ask for a look (does not matter what position the dog is in., in comparision to you ie., in front of you; you sitting down; to either side of you; wherever... as long as the dog looks)....always ensuring that I have a reward in my pocket for them when they look into my eyes. Never ask for a command if you can't pay your dog at least in the beginning - most of us would not do our jobs for free...why should they? Then I slowly begin to up the antie....3 seconds (using a bridge now - ie., good look)....5 seconds....etc., until they will eventually look until I give them a break command/reward.

The finding the leg exercise is the beginning stages of teaching the dog the correct heel position - his/her shoulder to your left leg. I'll try to scan a diagram that will enable me to help explain the procedure better if anyone is interested.

K9Jarko

Sorry Quita....just read your response....I see your looking for something other then Ivan's method...my bad...I'll go crawl back in my hole now

robinb

Lacey,

Thanks for sharing, very good info!!!

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CH OTCH Royalwood Extravert V Legend UDX2 RN ROM - CH Tijac's Victoria's Secret NAP NJP NAJ ROM

Quita

Thank you! This is very helpful. I actually taught my older dog to heel backward, and he's much more focused going backward than forward. I did teach the forward heel first, but I never thought of doing it this way to initially teach the heel. I love learning new ways to train!

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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.