doberkim

The difference is, I am not necessarily teaching Berlin just where to put her EYES when I am luring her with a hot dog - I am teaching her exactly where I want her head, where I want her neck to be, where I want her body to be, and what I want the entire picture of heeling to be from the very start. As many dogs can show you, they can be making eye contact with you , but NOT be in heel position - heeling is more than just eye contact - heeling is also a position. There are two parts to it - position and attention. You cannot have good heeling without both. Holding a piece of food by my side when I am having Berlin heel with me has nothing to do with attention in the beginning - Berlin SEPARATELY knows that when I ask for it, I want attention - right now, when I ask for heeling, I am asking for the picture of heeling as she knows it- perfect placement, perfect head position. I do not ask her to move unless she is correct at this time - why let her be wrong? You don't put the two together until much later, I am not in any rush to push her. Can she absolutely offer me perfect position with heads up and great eye contact? yes - but she also falls out of position after 15-20 steps. Since I have no desire to correct her, I am just going to CREATE success for her at this point. Heeling for her is just about the most fun thing we can do - I am creating a picture for her, and muscle memory. Later on, flicking her eyes up a few inches is nothing in the whole scheme of things, because the cookies move from my hands to my mouth - and she knows to follow them.

Right now, her focus is SUPPOSED to be on the hot dog - she's a BABY and she doesn't actually understand what heeling IS. If you took away all the toys, treats, and props, took her into a ring, and said HEEL (or whatever your word is), how far would you get? With my baby? Maybe a few steps, if that - not very far. Because they don't understand. Rah? Rah would give me a very long time - because he understands heeling and understands what is expected of him - understands that what I ask of him is INDEPENDENT of the toys, the tugs, the treats, the games - that they come as a result of his action. part of training is TEACHING THEM later on that they need to EARN THEM. Right now, your trainers are using the cookie to teach a very precise head position for animated, heads up heeling. IF you don't feel comfortable using it, then don't - but keep an open mind and understand that this method has worked for hundreds - no - thousands - of dogs each year and very reliably at that - dogs that win in the us, at Crufts, all over the place. Dogs that have their OTCHs, dogs that get perfect 200s, dogs that people drool over. It works - and these trainers don't have hot dogs hanging out of their hands for their dogs all the time - we teach the dogs heel position using the hot dogs, and that is it- as a baby under a year old, the hot dog is a training tool, nothing more. When I hang a 6 inch piece of meat in front of my dogs head, I expect I kinda fade into the background. However, after doing that for weeks, when I make that motion with my hand, whether or not there is a cookie there, Berlin sets herself up in heel, puts her head up, and struts her stuff - because that is a damn rewarding thing to do - whether or not there is a hot dog there.

My dogs have different behaviors - sometimes I *need* them to follow cookies - sometimes I want them to chase a cookie to get fast finishes, to get fast about turns, to get fast go outs, to play games, to mark things, etc - they have to understand that its not ALWAYS about looking at me. You have to learn both to ignore the food in my hand, and get the food in my hand, depending on what I tell you.

it all depends on what you want your criterion to be - on essentially my third dog now being trained to heel, I am much more strict in where I want her to be, and what I will tolerate as a heel position. My first dog, I was happy with what I would now consider to be LLW, with Rah, I was so thrilled with his attention I allowed his heel position to be forged a bit (also compounded a LOT by his size and my size combined). With Berlin, she is capable of the precision I am asking of her, so I expect of her that she is going to give me what I demand essentially - so I am picky with her. I want from the very start, only the straightest of sits, only the perfect turn of her head for heeling. I am trying to make sure in turn, that I am the best and clearest handler I am be for her.

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Quita

Thanks for your detailed response, Kim. What you said makes sense to me. I know that this method and others have been very successful. I'm just trying to make better sense of the "why" and the "how" for the different methods that I have seen being used.

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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

berkdogg

I've heard that some trainers hold the treat in their mouth and drop it to the dog, so the dog is always focused on the handlers face.

Rosamburg

I understand and that is actually what I assumed by your post, but wanted to point out that she is looking for something different in competition heeling.

Rosamburg

I did not say you could not get that type of heeling using your methods. I have seen similar methods used with excellent results. I was referring only to Linkreid's post.

doberkim

my bad, its hard to know whose posts you are referring to i stand corrected !!!!!

off to the trial... i think im going to vomit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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ellenm

This is a great thread!!

I do a lot of what doberkim is saying. Cheers did conformation for 10 months, so I did a lot of stationary attention things with her...but not moving at heel position because I did not want to confuse her gaiting and 'watching" at the same time. Thus, I worked on attention in front of me and at heel position while she was still showing. This she has down to a tee...she is locked into my eyes in either front or side position. She knows to go to heel from front, like the recall finish would ask. I do not let her ever sit with a hip out etc so that she knows the precise position I am asking for.

Secondly, I also taught her where heel is.....I have her in heel...ask her to wait...then tell her heel and she trots up and hops into her heel/attention position.

Now we are working on heeling and moving...and I DO use food to get her head/eyes up...she is doing all the way across the obedience floor now (is that 40'?) with one or two halts in there. Initially, I did "come ups" where you do just one or two very short steps with her in correct position, and then halt. We did this over and over down the floor. She got it after two sessions...now I can do a few more steps at a time....maybe 10-15. I break her out of it with the clicker to mark the correct position and an "okay" when I've gotten what I want. We play a little, get her tug toy, etc for a reward.

I keep food in my mouth and my left hand at this stage. I can see her in a wall of mirrors that line our obedience building so I don't fall into the habit of twisitng and looking at her. I AM luring her into the correct position to get the exact body/head position I want ( like doberkim said). Eventually, you will not need to do this.

If Risa knows to 'watch" and move already I would keep the method you initially taught her and click on the correct position, reward, and go on. I would not expect her to do correct heeling around and around with distractions at first for sure. Maybe show the instructor what she already knows?

Also, I do not do the exaggerated heel down first walk because I will fall over myself! I do make sure my first steps into "heel" are short steps, just as the steps to signal the halt to the dog are.... step,plant, halt.

In the long run, this lure method is weaned away pretty easily once the dog really understands what "heel" means. Try just calling your dog and saying heel...where do they go? Rex runs over, snaps into attention at my side and watches me from wherever he is. Cheers is still on lead for this so that I can guide her into the correct placement of body position.

My first dogs were trained in the 1990's and the old methods of correction by popping the collar from day 1 until they learned where they should be was used. Rex was my first dog I worked on attention with, and he is very attentive...but he has a crooked hip problem with his very long body that I am just living with. He did not start obedience until he was 3 yrs old and really has a hard time readjusting himself....it took him a year to figure out how to move his hind end and side step. I have about a 50% rate of a perfect finish after a recall/retrieve/etc with him. He's now 51/2 yrs old and so I am grateful for the results he has given me so far. I thought I was just going to get his CD, now he almost has his CDX and is working on Utility. I was not as picky with him initially and now it shows! So my advice is...go slow and be picky from the beginning!!

Rosamburg

Yep, no matter what the training method it is easier to take the time in the beginning to get it right than to try to fix issues later. On top of that fixing is like pushing a basketball underwater- it will go down in one area but pop up somewhere else.

Rosamburg

I usually try to quote, to show which post I am replying to, unless I am pretty confident I can reply right below someone else.

K9Jarko

Find the Leg - for those that requested:

Rather then post a diagram and confirm that my drawing skills have not improved since pre-school = stick men I made a very short video with Zane's assistance ....just to give you and idea of what the exercise looks like.

Findthelegvideo.flv - Video - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

I'll attempt to explain the steps.

Dog is placed in a sit or stand at lower right quadrant (in video) facing towards lower left quadrant and handler is at upper left quadrant (in video) facing towards lower left quadrant. Handler places left hand straight inside dogs flat collar (don't grasp the collar - fingers should be pointing towards the ground) at the same time handler takes a step back with the left foot. The left hand in the flat collar is used to guide the dog into the position. The left hand is moved in the shape of a C until the dog is in correct position next to the handlers left leg. In the beginning stages - this is where I would say "Good" - then use my break command "okay" and immediately reward. Once he/she was fluent in this - which you will actually see and feel (less effort on your part to guide the dog) then I would move to the second step where the dog follows your left leg as you place it next to your right leg. Your left hand continues with the C ending with your palm facing upward in the flat collar. Do this for however long it takes for the dog to follow that left leg to it's resting place. Then put it all together......use whatever heel command you use as soon as you reach to place your hand inside the collar at the start of exercise. Once the dog is proficient at this, following that left leg, you will begin to see and feel that upon the command the dog will begin to move with very little if any guidance from you - fade out the placing of hand in collar. Just give the heel command, still placing your left leg back. Fade out placing your left leg back and just give the command.

Now to test to see if the dog truly understands how to "find the leg". Keep your right foot in place...dog at a sit/heel....and give the heel command while at the same time taking a step with ONLY your left leg. If he follows that left leg - he understands. Now move the left leg then pause - dog should be right next to your forward left leg in correct heel position ...take a step with your right leg keeping the left in place (in the film I shifted my body and Zane corrected his position (as he should) but stayed at the left leg) - if the dog moves forward when you move the right leg - tell him no and go back to just moving the left leg in various directions. If not you moved to fast and need to go back. Remember to pay/reward your dog for every correct attempt and just say no (and of course no reward and start again) for incorrect. Always end each training session on a positive note - where the dog does even a small part of the exercise correctly ...REWARD and PRAISE.

Pardon the film but it has been a very long day for the both of us - training today started at 0400 to beat the heat....we were both ready for a bath and a nap

Disclaimer: The Obedience without Conflict Videos (by Ivan Balabanov) demonstrates and explains much better then I ever could