Teaching "heel" w/out Food or Toys - Page 2

**Quita** · 06-13-2008, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosamburg

What kind of attention are you looking for? Competition based?

Yes, competition-based attention.

**Quita** · 06-13-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K9Jarko

Sorry Quita....just read your response....I see your looking for something other then Ivan's method...my bad...I'll go crawl back in my hole now

No! This was very helpful! Thank you! I was actually going to PM you to get some more detailed information about how you teach the heel. I'm basically using the same method that you are using.. but I'm doing this only at home (not in obedience class). It just really bothers me doing all the luring with food after starting Risa with Ivan's methods. I was just wondering if there is another "magical" (i.e., "easier") way to teach the heel.

I just find that it's a very difficult thing to teach, and it takes such a long time to develop a good competition-level heel. Your post just confirms what I thought.. I just need to keep at it... baby steps.... Risa hasn't quite figured out finding the leg. She'll follow it into the intital position, but then when I begin walking she doesn't know to follow the leg. She's getting better with attention, but she'll frequently break her look once I begin moving. If she's highly, highly motivated for her tug, she WILL keep attention for a nice number of paces. I just need to be more patient and will keep working on this. The "finding the leg" and heel position hasn't quite "clicked" for her.. not yet..

robinb · 06-13-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quita

Thanks! I think I might be going to an Ivan seminar in November. In a couple weeks, I'll be working with Michael Ellis. Risa is much more focused with her tug. She heels better too with the tug. However, our instructor uses all food to teach the heel. I explained to her that I've been working Risa with the tug and that she does better this way. Our instructor uses the tug as a final reward ... as a play session. I don't think she understands how you can use it to teach the heel. I mentioned it to her, and I just got a blank stare from her. She has me do all of this food luring to get Risa to look up. Well, Risa already knows to look at me because I don't give her the tug unless she is focused. The other day the instructor was teaching steps to spit food at the dog. Poor Risa was a bit confused. She was supposed to follow the food, but she kept looking at my eyes. Then she'd look at the food then my eyes, confused. So after trying that one time, I'm NOT going to do it again. I had already rewarded her for looking right at ME, and now I'm asking her to lure and follow the food. I felt horrible for confusing her. Then last night we were doing the heel by holding food in the heel position. YOu have to hold the food at a certain height, at a certain angle, etc. etc. to get the dog to heel straight. (And I still don't understand why I can't do a normal walk when teaching the heel. The instructor emphasized a very specific heel-to-toe type of walking.)When luring with food, the dogs just hold their head up because they are following the food. Well, Risa will follow ME when she wants the tug.. She will look right at me. Now in class, I'm asking her to follow he hotdog. Ughhh. I just don't know what to do. I like the class in many ways, but I do not like how we are teaching the heel. The problem is that nobody else in the class teaches it a different way. When I mention things that I learned on Ivan's videos, the instructor acts like she's open to new ideas, but I can tell she's a bit skeptical.

Risa and I still make mistakes, so I'm hesitant to just "do my own thing" (and mess up on my own) when the instructor doesn't teach this way. I figure luring with food one day out of the week won't mess Risa up. At home, I continue to teach using the tug. I'm anxious to take Michael Ellis' seminar and learn how he teaches heeling.

If she's looking up to your eyes, then don't change that!!! That eye contact is so important. My instructor went nuts one day when I showed up with sunglasses!!! Use what works with your dog.

**K9Jarko** · 06-13-2008, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quita

No! This was very helpful! Thank you! I was actually going to PM you to get some more detailed information about how you teach the heel. I'm basically using the same method that you are using.. but I'm doing this only at home (not in obedience class). It just really bothers me doing all the luring with food after starting Risa with Ivan's methods. I was just wondering if there is another "magical" (i.e., "easier") way to teach the heel.

I just find that it's a very difficult thing to teach, and it takes such a long time to develop a good competition-level heel. Your post just confirms what I thought.. I just need to keep at it... baby steps.... Risa hasn't quite figured out finding the leg. She'll follow it into the intital position, but then when I begin walking she doesn't know to follow the leg. She's getting better with attention, but she'll frequently break her look once I begin moving. If she's highly, highly motivated for her tug, she WILL keep attention for a nice number of paces. I just need to be more patient and will keep working on this. The "finding the leg" and heel position hasn't quite "clicked" for her.. not yet..

YW! Just so that you don't feel alone.....it took 2 weeks of 10 minutes sessions 3x a day pertaining to the finding the leg exercise before I was able to not have to use the left leg (back) before Zane would come to heel from the side (upper left quadrant - pertaining to diagram in the film). Once the light came on though....it was amazing...I could take 10 side steps sideways, backwards, forwards...do a 360....and he maintained the position perfectly.....PATIENCE (I know I was close to frustration to...I really do feel for you

)

bonzo · 06-13-2008, 01:53 PM

I was talking with Mario Verslype a time ago about learning the correct way to teach a dog how to "heel". He told me that he starts in his own backyard with the pup sitting next to him and looking up to him in the correct way for only max. 5 minutes. When the pup knows what you mean he will go to a place where there is a little bit of disstraction for the pup. Again when the pup knows this exercice is correct he will simply go to a crowded place and he will do exactly the same thing. Dependig from dog to dog he will use either food or a tug. I have never tried this method of my own but Mario Verslype has been a few times world champion Mallinois and a few times world champion all breeds with different dogs (serious working people will know his name for sure) so if his system works for him it will certainly work for you.

link80reid · 06-13-2008, 04:18 PM

I used the leash, I would bring it in close when giving the heal command, then once he stopped having anytension on it when I said heal then I started taking it off. Now he heals perfectly. If he starts to sniff the ground or creates any distance between us I reach down and give him a little finger poke in the side of his belly to get him back on track.

Rosamburg · 06-13-2008, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by link80reid

I used the leash, I would bring it in close when giving the heal command, then once he stopped having anytension on it when I said heal then I started taking it off. Now he heals perfectly. If he starts to sniff the ground or creates any distance between us I reach down and give him a little finger poke in the side of his belly to get him back on track.

What do you mean by perfect? Most people's idea of heeling is for the dog to walk beside you. Competition based heeling, on the other hand, is having the dog absolutely in the correct position, maintaining eye contact 100%, and being absolutely perpendicular (or parallel depending on how you look at it) to the handler, no lagging, no forging and no wrapping around all while maintaining an enthusiastic and happy expression, as well as being "in drive" even with numerous distractions.

No offense but I seriously doubt you would get to that point based on the type of teaching you described.

**doberkim** · 06-13-2008, 07:01 PM

First, I think you need to decide what you are going to do and stick with it - training her one way in class and another way at home is going to be hard on her.

Second, you need to understand the basis behind the methods and what they will bring - I don't know everyone at Bayshore, but I know the theory behind most of the NJ competition level trainers and how they were all trained (and they mostly all use Teri arnold as their mentor) and most of them all use the same methods with some variations. If you are unsure where something will go, then ask questions and explain why you don't want to do something, or want to do something else. If you don't feel comfortable with it, then don't do it. There are some things I do and do not do, there are some things I am always different on (I do NOT say strut for instance, no matter what - i think it is a stupid heeling word).

They are teaching you HOW to heel because how you walk is important - learning how to smoothly transition between fast, slow, how to signal to your dog you will be turning, how to make it EASIER for your dog to be in heel position and maintain heel position and maintain eye contact with you - when you walk normally like you do without a dog, you aren't doing it in a manner that makes it easy for your dog.

As Amanda said, the reason most people dont TEACH heel position with a tug is that to get the reward, the premise of heel position has to be broken every time you reward. I can reward my dog multiple times in a row in fast succession within 10 seconds without her moving her head out of heel position and each time she has learned that that is exactly the position i wanted her in - and then at the end, we can tug. the minute i tug with her, she moves out of position. its over, we cant be in heel position. fine for a seasoned dog, but for a dog just learning where position is, there's only so long i can get them INTO heel position before that itself becomes demotivating. and when i do attention exercises, i need to be able to reward multiple times for paying attention to me IN heel. i personally use a clicker and food, and sometimes yes i lure because primarily because i am not a big shaper

and rosamburg, you absolutely CAN get that type of heeling with that type of training. its how rah was taught. cookie in my mouth, rah at my side. voila - rah's heeling has had people with OTCH's comment, and I've had judges stop me in the ring to tell me what a great heeler he is. and i dont want to hear that it wont cut it with the schutzhund folk, cause thats what we are about to test this weekend when he goes for his BH and his WDS-TT

our first heeling lessons CAME from schutzhund trainers, and i just adapted from there.

is he inconsistent sometimes? yes - thats because he is young and we are inexperienced. but his heeling is totally in drive, and he LOVES it.

link80reid · 06-13-2008, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosamburg

What do you mean by perfect? Most people's idea of heeling is for the dog to walk beside you. Competition based heeling, on the other hand, is having the dog absolutely in the correct position, maintaining eye contact 100%, and being absolutely perpendicular (or parallel depending on how you look at it) to the handler, no lagging, no forging and no wrapping around all while maintaining an enthusiastic and happy expression, as well as being "in drive" even with numerous distractions.

No offense but I seriously doubt you would get to that point based on the type of teaching you described.

My heal is not for competition. I don't require eye contact. I only require that he stay in close, and adjust his position on command(he will heal forward left in "gaurd" mode or heal back left like normal). He also knows left and right, so I dont trip over him on corners. He has to be attentive to me at all times, stop when I stop etc. He didnt need the eye contact to be aware of me at all times so I never taught that to him. When I said "perfect" I meant, meeting all of my requirements to the T. I walk him off lead and we can walk passed other people with their dogs and he doesnt even pay attention. That to me is "perfect", exactly what I want and trained him for. Sorry for the confusion.

**Quita** · 06-13-2008, 07:58 PM

Thanks, Kim. This is helpful. I guess the thing that bothers me the most is using the food to lure Risa to look at me. She already knows that she won't get a toy, won't get a tug, won't get to play, etc. if she doesn't look at me. So using the food to lure her eyes up just doesn't make sense to me at this point in time. So I think I'll explain this to our trainer and see what she says. I use a combination of tug, treats, and clicker training. I have no problem with her general philosophy of training. It's just the luring with food to get her eyes up is what really gives me the uncomfortable feeling. The problem that I have, however, is that we are doing fewer steps in the heel position using Ivan's method. Using the lure with the hotdog, however, Risa will "heel" all over the room. However, her focus is not on me with the luring/hotdog method. Instead, all of her focus is on the hotdog. (When I use Ivan's method, her focus IS on me.) I can see a reason to spit food and use it as a reward. But I feel uncomfortable with using a hotdog to lure Risa into a "heel" position all the way around the room. Sometimes something just doesn't feel "right," yet I'm still trying to figure out what "right" is for Risa and me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by doberkim

First, I think you need to decide what you are going to do and stick with it - training her one way in class and another way at home is going to be hard on her... Second, you need to understand the basis behind the methods and what they will bring - I don't know everyone at Bayshore, but I know the theory behind most of the NJ competition level trainers and how they were all trained (and they mostly all use Teri arnold as their mentor) and most of them all use the same methods with some variations. If you are unsure where something will go, then ask questions and explain why you don't want to do something, or want to do something else. If you don't feel comfortable with it, then don't do it. There are some things I do and do not do, there are some things I am always different on (I do NOT say strut for instance, no matter what - i think it is a stupid heeling word)...