Quote:
Originally Posted by VegasHR  ...an e-collar is like using a bit on a horse, damaging if used incorrectly but in the right hands a valuable tool. |
That's a fairly useful analogy there.
It can be extrapolated to folks' spectrum of views on e collars, as well.
There are those who think ALL bits are cruel and no horse should ever learn to carry a bit in his mouth, regardless of the skilled hands holding the reins.
There are those who think an appropriate bit for that individual horse and for the education and skill level of the rider is necessary and beneficial.
There are those who take it case by case. <--me, for one.
(I ride my horse now bitless, but certainly have the hands to use a great variety of bits if we are showing a discipline or learning a new skill which calls for one.)
There are the group of folks
who think every single behavioral training issue is either solved by or caused by, the use of certain bits.
Then there are those bits which the vast majority of folks would feel is cruel, no matter how they are employed. Period. (Spade bit, anyone?)
It seems as though the group saying never, ever, never, ever use an E collar fall into that last train of thought--that an E collar is just not humane, and not capable of being used humanely.
I admit, until I got my Kylie girl a few months ago, I at least had one foot in the water on thinking E collars were equal to Spade Bits.
I have a lot of tools and techniques in my training toolbox, and Kylie has motivated me to add more than I ever thought I'd need or use.
Having said that, she is clicker trained and (I hope) 90% of what we do is positive training. 100% of what we do is based on learning theory, and yup, some punishment/negative reinforcement is used, with great care and consideration, I hope, and never in anger.
It came down to safety, and what quality of life this very baggage-laden girl was gonna have.
When your dog, despite socialization and prior training, is totally ignoring you and trying to bite 1100 pound hooved animals, that's a problem. The ones that fight back are going to injure or kill the dog. The ones who do not are going to be injured or killed. (Running thru fences and into traffic, if nothing else.) And humans might end up injured or killed, trying to intervene. NOT acceptable.
Without writing a novel, let it be summed up that every positive tool/technique I'm aware of was tried first, before an E collar. (Up to and including another trainer's help.) The rescue folks even signed off on this plan, vs. returning this formerly-described-as-low-prey-drive girl.
So, with trepidation, I got an E collar.
Was horrified by the "training manual." Scrapped it. (Dude does NOT know how to train--thank goodness his dogs are smarter than he, and seem to figure it out, despite his "program.")
Yes, I totally shocked ME first, on all levels I'd consider using, ever. (Up to three, of sixteen.) Meh, it was not pleasant, but not exactly ouchy, and it truly feels like e-stim, if you've ever had PT.
I'd ask the question, those who have trained on long lines, and given a "long-distance" correction using those, is not the intention to provide the dog with an unpleasant stimulus, in order that they associate that as a consequence of the undesired behavior?
The e collar correction is (should be) used the same way. NOT as a zapfest because you do not know, or care to learn, how to train.
It's not a magic bullet. It must be used as one aspect of a solid all-round training program. It must be used judiciously, but so must all correction, even if it's just a harsh word or tone. Praise must always outweigh the negatives.
So, if anyone's still awake and with me, Kylie is doing the math, finally, and leaving the horses be. Because of this, she is able to run for hours on 100 acres (always supervised with me) instead of sitting those same hours in a crate in the house. She is also getting to go along on long trail rides and has a joyful time nosing at turtles along the way, jumping logs, splashing thru puddles, and just being a part of the "pack" of horses, riders and other dogs.
It has been a positive, miraculous tool, for us. With some dogs, and in some hands, the mileage sure could vary.
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