Training Question?! Obedience & Security?

cookie725 · 06-11-2008, 08:12 AM

Vito is 13 1/2 weeks old and we are getting him into a general obedience class very soon.
I have kind of a silly question. The dog schools around here offer general obedience and training as well as house calls for problem pets. The training stops there.
Now, Vito is simply a house dog, but I was wondering about getting him into security/guard training after the obedience. Don't get me wrong, I don't want a full force guard dog, but I was thinking there were probably certain general things they could teach him that aren't quite as extensive -- and could be fun for him and myself.
Has anyone ever gone into any of these classes with their DObe? What are your opinions on this?

GunnersMum · 06-11-2008, 08:36 AM

I personally feel that security/guard training is a lifelong commitment for the rest of the dogs life. I don't think that it is a 6 or 8 week class that you attend and then expect to have said dog properly trained.

With that type of training you don't go half way - you could find yourself with a ticking time bomb. It's all or nothing IMO.

WorkingInSTL · 06-11-2008, 09:19 AM

The last post was pretty correct. Protection training is ongoing, for the active "career" of the dog. It requires a serious commitment of time and resources. It is not an 8 or 10 week class. With that being said, it is incredibly rewarding, and if you are willing to commit the time and effort, I strongly encourage you to get involved with a local schutzhund club or other similar training club.

Another thing I want to offer for consideration is that working dogs are raised a little differently than housedogs. They generally aren't discouraged from the "bad" puppy behaviors like jumping and play biting, and I know the mantra I see over and over is "obedience first", but a lot of trainers don't do any real obedience (i.e. leash corrections and correction collars) until the dog is older, to prevent it from becoming leash/handler sensitive. There are others who disagree with me, and there is certainly more than one way to train a dog, but I know I have personally seen some very nice, mature obedience dogs who had a rough time transitioning to protection because they couldn't seem to hit the end of a leash or tie out line without believing they were being corrected and wanting to return to their handler.

I went on a little bit of a tangent, but I guess it was to reinforce the point that dogs raised for protection training are treated a little bit differently than the standard recommendations for raising a dog that is intended to be nothing more than a house pet. Ultimately, if you decide to go that road, the rewards and bond you form with your dog are indescribable.

cookie725 · 06-11-2008, 09:36 AM

Thank you for the responses and imput. I wasn't sure how exactly the guard training would work, so I really appreciate it. Also, you make a very valid point about it being an ongoing training.
I think it may be a wonderful way to connect with Vito and excercise his mind and body -- I think it's worth talking to the local guard dog training business and asking more questions.
If this were a road we chose, when would be the proper timing to begin training?
If we don't chose guard training, are there other methods, say for example --
Someone comes to our house that the dog doesn't know, but is a friend. Perhaps there is a command to let him know that this person is okay. Or vice versa? I definitely don't want him to "attack" ANYONE. But would their be a command to put him in "defense" mode?
I know I sound juvenille and dumb about this, and I apologize for that. I'm just curious...
Thank you for you help.

WorkingInSTL · 06-11-2008, 09:55 AM

First of all, never be afraid of sounding "dumb", you're just uneducated, and so was I and everyone else that does protection training at one point...we all had to learn from somewhere. That's what these forums are for is so we can share and benefit from one another's experiences.

If this is something you are considering, great, but I want to caution you to find a competent trainer. There are a lot of incompetent hacks out there who claim to teach personal protection who do nothing more than stress the dog out to the point that it is an unmanageably nervous and terrified ball of fear who may look extremely menacing on the end of a leash, but is so terrified that it is more likely to wet itself than actually protect you in a true threatening situation. This type of "training" is terrible for you and is cruel, inhumane, and just plain unfair for the dog. The worst part is, sometimes the damage that is done to a dog in this manner can be near impossible to reverse. Anyone can buy a whip, and a bite sleeve, and a pair of scratch pants for under $1000. Putting them on does not make them a dog trainer.

What area do you live in ? I'm sure there are some other schutzhund people on here who can recommend some decent training clubs around your area.

cookie725 · 06-11-2008, 09:59 AM

I live in Jamestown, NY. Little town in western New York State. 45 minutes from Erie, PA and an hour and a half from Buffalo, NY. '

I definitely don't want to get involved in anything that could harm Vito and be potentially dangerous for him or myself. So thank you for that advice too. If anyone does know of a good protection training facility, that would be wonderful.

WorkingInSTL · 06-11-2008, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cookie725

If this were a road we chose, when would be the proper timing to begin training?
If we don't chose guard training, are there other methods, say for example --
Someone comes to our house that the dog doesn't know, but is a friend. Perhaps there is a command to let him know that this person is okay. Or vice versa? I definitely don't want him to "attack" ANYONE. But would their be a command to put him in "defense" mode?

Thank you for you help.

I wanted to touch on this too, because it seems that you are under the impression that protection training somehow "rewires" your dog into an always on-guard attacking machine. Proper training should not affect the basic personality traits of an animal. An animal that is lovable and friendly before protection training will still be lovable and friendly afterwards. Protection training simply gives the dog the confidence to deal with a threat in a manner that he has learned is appropriate. With that in mind, not every dog has the necessary temprament to undergo bite training, but a good trainer should be able and willing to recognize that.

Well guys, who is in that area ? Isn't Ray Carlisle in that region ?

Rosamburg · 06-11-2008, 10:17 AM

Many if not most Schutzhund clubs, at least in my area, are not what you would think of as a training facility. They are non-profit clubs that are groups of people training together. There is usually a training director who provides most of the direction. There are of course professionals in the business too and for some, due to locality that may be the only option. I would generally choose a club over a professional if possible. It really has no reflection on the quality of the training because there is a great deal of variance both in the non-profit club and professional realm.

WorkingInSTL · 06-11-2008, 10:25 AM

That's how it is here in the midwest too. That's generally the way I try to steer people, because I have been left with a bad taste in my mouth from "professionals"; of course, there are some that are great ( I live about a half hour from where Tom Rose used to be), but I have been personally soured on them, so I am just admittedly biased against them. The only people I can think of in that area are Ray Carlisle and Armin Winkler, but I'm not familiar with the area up there, so they could both be quite a ways away from where the OP actually is.

WorkingInSTL · 06-11-2008, 10:59 AM

To the OP...if you want to know more about schutzhund training and protection training, this may be a good place to start.

USA - Club List

This may be of interest to you also.

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