Schutzhund BH & tracking questions

**Quita** · 05-08-2008, 12:23 PM

I'm currently enrolled in a competitive obedience class with Risa. The instructor teaches toward the AKC obedience titles. Eventually, I'd like to try for a Schutzhund BH. Any comments on how training might differ when working towards a BH vs. an AKC title? Do you think I'll have trouble with the BH test when I train with an AKC instructor? I know the activities are different, but I'm wondering if I should keep something in mind as I progress with Risa's training.

Also, if Risa turns out to not make it as a SAR trailing dog, I'm interested in doing competitive tracking. Tracking and trailing are different. For those with experience, do you think it would be very difficult to train a dog to go from trailing to tracking? The biggest problem that I see is that tracking goes footstep by footstep. In trailing, however, the dog can follow the scent off track and sometimes will combine air scenting with tracking. Also, trailing in SAR is used to search for a person. In tracking, there are scent articles that the dog has to search for and identify.

Thanks for any and all comments!

Dobeman · 05-08-2008, 03:14 PM

Obedience
There truly should not be any difference. Sit should mean sit, heel should mean heel, no matter what discipline you are training for. That being said, most of the AKC obedience people I have met, fail to really train the dog. They work towards specific ring behaviors, i.e. as soon as their dogs are outside of an obedience ring, they don't seem to know anything anymore. They can only "work" within that specific setting and they only train for that.

Heeling in Schutzhund that scores high points looks much flashier than what you see in most AKC obedience rings, although for a BH, it probably does not matter. For the BH you have to heel significantly longer at a time (check out the heeling pattern), but again heel should mean heel. A lot of times, since AKC rings are so incredibly small, people fail to train for consistency, i.e. they believe it is OK if the dog can only heel for 10 steps at a time because most likely there will be a turn or a halt anyway.

The biggest difference in training as far as the commands are concerned is the fact that in SchH you cannot say the dog's name and then the command because it is considered a double-command, so instead of "fluffy heel", you can only say "heel". However, you may say the command again for each change of pace.

Some people have the left hand up by their stomach in AKC obedience. Not acceptable in SchH. The arms should swing in a natural manner. Also, you cannot hold the leash in the right hand in SchH, but they may have changed that in AKC since I last competed.

Tracking
Air scenting will get you in big trouble in SchH.

**K9Jarko** · 05-08-2008, 07:18 PM

I've also noticed that in AKC their about turns are more of a left turn around (a bit to many steps) which is different then SchH requires. There are two "acceptable" ways to do an about turn for SchH - but as Dobeman stated already - for a BH it probably would not cost that many points ....depending on who the judge is of course

The only time you can use a dogs name in SchH is: 1. instead of here or come ie., recalling to a front from down out of motion...you use the dogs name (still only one word can be used) 2. the dogs name can be used in the blind search for protection ie., search (dog goes around blind) Zane Here.

From experience...it is much harder to train a dog from trailing or TTD = tracking through drive to footstep tracking, then the other way around. Of course it can be done....like anything else...but when a dog is in doubt, stressed etc., they usually will revert back to their foundation ie., airscenting if this is what they learned first.

alwayshadpets · 05-08-2008, 07:28 PM

[quote=Dobeman;172243]Obedience
That being said, most of the AKC obedience people I have met, fail to really train the dog.
Thats a mean thing to say. Have you ever titled in AKC?

They work towards specific ring behaviors, i.e. as soon as their dogs are outside of an obedience ring, they don't seem to know anything anymore. They can only "work" within that specific setting and they only train for that.

The class I`m in does not train for specific ring behaviors. We do everything and than some. So I disagree with you totally.

**K9Jarko** · 05-08-2008, 08:05 PM

I think "some" people in all venues train to a lesser degree then "other" people. The AKC obedience club that I'm training with right now has a diverse group of people from novice to experienced...from kinda interested in training ie., more into training for specific tasks that are required ie., bare minimum to really dedicated in training and excelling with their dog - not unlike many "SchH people". I"m of the belief that ANY fair and humane obedience training, no matter what venue/sport one participates in or not.... whether they go for a title or not.....is great for the owner/dog relationship.

ripper.qc · 05-08-2008, 09:29 PM

i have to desagree with you dobeman .... i have seen many peoples from sch too that are traing in partern way and they also say that if their dogs missbehave outside the field its because they are competition dogs ....

and its probaly cause most of them lives in kennel and are out only for training ....

its up to the handler to have is dog to many diff places during training ...

one of the problem that you may see is in sch .. on the field obediance is harder for the dog cause we also train for protection on the same field so the dog anticipates the presence of the helper on the field and gets more exited .....

and as far as i know akc/ckc titles are pretty close to sch obediance and bh is obediance only ... with a teperament test ..

i have seen a couple of dogs with title from sch and akc/ckc (ex. : sch1 ad fh cd cdx ) and some with agility titles too...

it all depends on the amount of time you have to spend with your dog ...

Dobeman · 05-08-2008, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alwayshadpets

That being said, most of the AKC obedience people I have met, fail to really train the dog.
Thats a mean thing to say. Have you ever titled in AKC?

They work towards specific ring behaviors, i.e. as soon as their dogs are outside of an obedience ring, they don't seem to know anything anymore. They can only "work" within that specific setting and they only train for that.

The class I`m in does not train for specific ring behaviors. We do everything and than some. So I disagree with you totally.

As I said "most of the AKC people I have met". I did not generalize at all, so I don't think this is mean. It is based on my personal experience and I made that clear in my post.

As a matter of fact, I did AKC obedience for a bit. My male was in the DPCA Top 20.

It is great that you are in a much better class than I apparently was at the time. Continued good luck with competition.

**doberkim** · 05-08-2008, 10:00 PM

Something to mention - there is no left about turn in AKC obedience. There is in Rally, but in traditional obedience the only acceptable about turn is the right about turn, so it is a non-issue.

There are some major differences in terms of handling - like Cornelia and k9 said, how many times you can say the dogs name (if at all), how many times you can give a command, where your arms are positioned (VERY hard for me, even just from a logistical standpoint as I have no choice but to put my arm on the OUTSIDE of my dogs body I think), etc.

That being said, Schutzhund obedience is a lot more relaxed and a lot less precise in some manners - without being rude about it, you get points just for trying. You can fail a single exercise and still pass the overall entire portion/BH. In AKC obedience, especially in the B classes, you are going to get dinged every single time your dog sits slightly crooked, your dog forges, your dog touches you, your dog is OOP even the slightest bit, and those half points add up. In Sch, and others can correct me, there are more fundamentals they are concerned about it, the judge will certainly comment that the dog is forging, has a poor position, you aren't going to lose a half a point every single time it happens. On the other hand, in Schutzhund I have always seen the judge comment on how happy the dog is or is not to work, something that is NEVER commented on by the judge in AKC obedience.

I have seen poor trainers on both sides - I have seen SchH folks that pattern train only for what is needed to pass their portions and nothing else, but I have seen that in the AKC ring as well. There are good and bad on both sides. Good obedience is good obedience, plain and simple.

Congrats on the Top 20 Cornelia!!!!! - what year was Cameron in the TT? I'd love to be in it...

Dobeman · 05-08-2008, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doberkim

Congrats on the Top 20 Cornelia!!!!! - what year was Cameron in the TT? I'd love to be in it...

Thanks, Kim

It was way back, in 2004. I titled several dogs in AKC (including a Great Dane

, but no one else made it up there. It was fun, but as you say in some ways much more rigid than SchH, although the SchH judges do ding you quite a bit at the higher levels, even with repeated crooked sits etc. I LOVE the sport.

alwayshadpets · 05-09-2008, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ripper.qc

and its probaly cause most of them lives in kennel and are out only for training ....
..

This part disturbs me because it is true. Some dogs are only out (of their kennels) to compete. Not all are members of their families with just hanging out privleges.